I don’t see any proof that there is a god or gods out there. Nor that there is any sort of objective morality. Nor a single shred of evidence for any of it. All the evidence is circular and answers one question while adding another. You may say the Bible says so, but how do we know the Bible is true? And you may say because God said so. So how do we know that is true? You have to assume that either a god or the Bible is true, but you can’t prove it. How do we know your God is the real one and not The Great Flying Spaghetti Monster ™️ ? You can’t prove your god any more than I could prove that. And that’s the issue.
If you can’t even prove there is a god or morality or anything then why should I assume there is anything to be saved from?
I don’t believe in gods or religions or the concept of “sin” and “salvation” at all anymore. I just can’t without some form of proof. I can’t accept the “because it is” or “because God said so” or “because Bible said so” anymore. All of those things require you to believe in them first and then add on “proofs”. But for every proof you can add there is also a proof to the contrary.
And on top of that, I am so much happier and less anxious and less worried and stressed now after getting out of all that. The constant fear and worry about my soul and eternity and salvation and converting others and all that was so much. It was painful to live like that. After letting it all go I am so much happier and at peace with myself and the universe than before. I don’t ever want to go back into a system where hellfire and brimstone is yelled at me. Or even worse a system where a god demands that I worship and love him OR ELSE SUFFER FOREVER! Because that isn’t love, it’s manipulation and control and threats and fear.
I simply can’t anymore. I burned out all my ability to ignore reality and believe elaborate stories. And I honestly don’t think I can ever go back to blindly believing it all. It feels like waking up from a fever dream.
The problem with free will is that everyone is entitled to use theirs as they see fit, even if you vehemently disagree with their choices.
Sometimes, the best you can do is tell someone that they’re headed for the abyss, but if they’ve already spent countless hours convincing themselves that the abyss is a lie and they intend to prove it by throwing themselves in it, there may not be much you can do to change their mind.
So no, I’m not proud of having said this, but occasionally you have to cut your losses before you get dragged down along with the other person.
For instance, I see you claimed here that Julian Assange was a Russian asset, and despite people calling you out on it being nothing but speculation, you never provided any evidence for that claim.
So how about you dial it back a notch and talk about things you can actually prove.
That sorta proves my point. That’s a thinly veiled threat. “Believe like I do or you’ll be sorry”
And to be honest with you. If a god created the universe and this system, filled it with misinformation, fake religions, lies and deceptions galore all hoping that I would somehow still bullseye a 1 in a million chance to believe exactly the right things and say the right things and do the right things out of the infinite choices available and if I don’t I get tortured for eternity… Then I don’t want any part of that god or religion. That’s evil and awful and does not deserve worship from anyone.
Why would you set up a system designed to trick and fail everyone, but have 1 correct answer hidden. One option that is the correct choice, but NO way to ever know for sure or prove it? You just have to pick one and hope you are correct. That is insane and heartless.
If your god is real and all the stories are true then either A. He is an evil god and I don’t want to worship that. Or B. He is a good god and created me to think like I do and he knew I’d have doubts and will still accept me for doing my best in an impossible scenario.
But I’m gonna go with C. gods don’t exist or don’t interact with us.
Until proven otherwise I don’t know what else to do, but I will not go back into an abusive and evil religious system that causes so much harm.
It’s not a threat, it’s a warning. Like saying “be careful about swimming in that lake, there’s alligators in there”. Perhaps you’ll be lucky and they’ve already eaten for the day, but simply not believing in them will not make them go away.
And no, that’s not to say there aren’t any alligators in church, because that would be a lie. What I’m trying to tell you is that they’re everywhere, not just in church, and it’s a mistake to believe you are safe because you got out of there.
Using that analogy it would be like putting someone on an island, filling the water with alligators and demanding that if they serve you and love you forever you’ll ferry them back across to the mainland in your boat. But that isn’t a threat, that’s just warning them of the dangerous alligators, right?
I would call that kidnapping and domestic abuse personally. Realizing those behaviors are classic manipulation and abuse tactics helped in getting out of that insanity. I hope you can see that too.
Are you accusing me of putting you on that island? Because a minute ago you told me that pointing out the alligators was a thinly veiled threat, as if it was me who put them there.
I’m only telling you how it is. I’m not asking you to worship me.
I’m saying that IF it is that way it is because the god MADE IT that way as an elaborate trap to coerce worship.
I used to believe it too, not super strongly, but I just sorta accepted it since everyone around me believed it.
The thing is. Setting up a trap and then putting someone inside it and then telling them to be careful of the trap, but if they want out of the trap all they have to do is worship you is just manipulation and abuse. That isn’t actual love. “Love me or burn in the fires I created to punish you if you don’t.” isn’t love… And isn’t worthy of praise or worship. If a person did that to someone else you would call them a monster.
Okay, but IF it is the way that it is because God made it that way, what is the use of getting angry about it? Is that not just going to make it worse? Also, wouldn’t you at least rather be informed about it in advance instead of having to puzzle it out yourself over many, many years? That would only make it more agonizing, wouldn’t it.
And have you considered that perhaps the entire story is merely an allegory that describes the internal experience of growing into a fully formed human being, with all the troubles, pitfalls, and vicissitudes that might befall one on the way? And that perhaps the worship of God is ultimately just about learning how to love and respect yourself with all of the flaws and problems you inevitably have?
What if the only lie they told you in church was that God was to be found somewhere out there in the world, and that someone other than you was more capable of communicating with him when He is actually inside of your own head, about two inches from the top, right between your eyes? Would that change your opinion on any of these things or would you continue to be angry about all of it?
I think that it is quite disingenuous to imply that religion doesn’t claim it is a literal god. They do. At least the big 3 do. And all the evangelical ones do. Literal god. Literal scenarios. Not a psychological technique to find some inner peace, but a literal good vs evil reality is what they all claim.
And no that wouldn’t change my opinion on it because all of that can just as easily be achieved without religion. In fact it is far easier and better without religion skewing it all. I spent years as a kid being terrified I was broken and evil and wrong because religion told me, in no uncertain terms, that I was. And despite my best attempts I couldn’t ever get close to being the perfect little follower when it seemed like everyone else was. Spoiler, they were all faking it just like I was, because they were all afraid they weren’t good enough. It’s all performative. All of it.
Do you have a moment to talk about my lord and savior Big Tony? He wants to love you. Follow his every word and obey and believe and worship him or he’ll break ya legs and send yas ta swim with da fishes. Yeah, see. But he loves you.
It would be a shame if something bad was to happen to ya. Join Big Tony’s today. Tony is watching. Tony wants to protect you, but you have to accept him first. And you should want to offer him money because how great he is. Also if ya don’t Guido ova there’ll break ya legs, see?
Now let us all turn to page 274 and sing a praise for Tony.
Salvation from what?
I don’t see any proof that there is a god or gods out there. Nor that there is any sort of objective morality. Nor a single shred of evidence for any of it. All the evidence is circular and answers one question while adding another. You may say the Bible says so, but how do we know the Bible is true? And you may say because God said so. So how do we know that is true? You have to assume that either a god or the Bible is true, but you can’t prove it. How do we know your God is the real one and not The Great Flying Spaghetti Monster ™️ ? You can’t prove your god any more than I could prove that. And that’s the issue.
If you can’t even prove there is a god or morality or anything then why should I assume there is anything to be saved from?
I don’t believe in gods or religions or the concept of “sin” and “salvation” at all anymore. I just can’t without some form of proof. I can’t accept the “because it is” or “because God said so” or “because Bible said so” anymore. All of those things require you to believe in them first and then add on “proofs”. But for every proof you can add there is also a proof to the contrary.
And on top of that, I am so much happier and less anxious and less worried and stressed now after getting out of all that. The constant fear and worry about my soul and eternity and salvation and converting others and all that was so much. It was painful to live like that. After letting it all go I am so much happier and at peace with myself and the universe than before. I don’t ever want to go back into a system where hellfire and brimstone is yelled at me. Or even worse a system where a god demands that I worship and love him OR ELSE SUFFER FOREVER! Because that isn’t love, it’s manipulation and control and threats and fear.
I simply can’t anymore. I burned out all my ability to ignore reality and believe elaborate stories. And I honestly don’t think I can ever go back to blindly believing it all. It feels like waking up from a fever dream.
Alright then, I guess you will just have to find out for yourself, won’t you.
I can’t believe that you think this is an argument you are proud of making.
Who says I’m proud of it?
The problem with free will is that everyone is entitled to use theirs as they see fit, even if you vehemently disagree with their choices.
Sometimes, the best you can do is tell someone that they’re headed for the abyss, but if they’ve already spent countless hours convincing themselves that the abyss is a lie and they intend to prove it by throwing themselves in it, there may not be much you can do to change their mind.
So no, I’m not proud of having said this, but occasionally you have to cut your losses before you get dragged down along with the other person.
When I make an argument I have a certain level of intellectual pride. I know it’s the best I can do. However, I always have evidence to back me up.
Yeah, I’m gonna call bullshit on that.
For instance, I see you claimed here that Julian Assange was a Russian asset, and despite people calling you out on it being nothing but speculation, you never provided any evidence for that claim.
So how about you dial it back a notch and talk about things you can actually prove.
Call whatever you want. He was/is a Russian asset.
Now did he or did he not tease a data release about Clinton during election yes or no?
Where is the evidence for that?
I thought you had standards.
Making friends all over. Blocked by the way
That sorta proves my point. That’s a thinly veiled threat. “Believe like I do or you’ll be sorry”
And to be honest with you. If a god created the universe and this system, filled it with misinformation, fake religions, lies and deceptions galore all hoping that I would somehow still bullseye a 1 in a million chance to believe exactly the right things and say the right things and do the right things out of the infinite choices available and if I don’t I get tortured for eternity… Then I don’t want any part of that god or religion. That’s evil and awful and does not deserve worship from anyone.
Why would you set up a system designed to trick and fail everyone, but have 1 correct answer hidden. One option that is the correct choice, but NO way to ever know for sure or prove it? You just have to pick one and hope you are correct. That is insane and heartless.
If your god is real and all the stories are true then either A. He is an evil god and I don’t want to worship that. Or B. He is a good god and created me to think like I do and he knew I’d have doubts and will still accept me for doing my best in an impossible scenario.
But I’m gonna go with C. gods don’t exist or don’t interact with us.
Until proven otherwise I don’t know what else to do, but I will not go back into an abusive and evil religious system that causes so much harm.
It’s not a threat, it’s a warning. Like saying “be careful about swimming in that lake, there’s alligators in there”. Perhaps you’ll be lucky and they’ve already eaten for the day, but simply not believing in them will not make them go away.
And no, that’s not to say there aren’t any alligators in church, because that would be a lie. What I’m trying to tell you is that they’re everywhere, not just in church, and it’s a mistake to believe you are safe because you got out of there.
Using that analogy it would be like putting someone on an island, filling the water with alligators and demanding that if they serve you and love you forever you’ll ferry them back across to the mainland in your boat. But that isn’t a threat, that’s just warning them of the dangerous alligators, right?
I would call that kidnapping and domestic abuse personally. Realizing those behaviors are classic manipulation and abuse tactics helped in getting out of that insanity. I hope you can see that too.
Are you accusing me of putting you on that island? Because a minute ago you told me that pointing out the alligators was a thinly veiled threat, as if it was me who put them there.
I’m only telling you how it is. I’m not asking you to worship me.
Sigh… No.
I’m saying that IF it is that way it is because the god MADE IT that way as an elaborate trap to coerce worship.
I used to believe it too, not super strongly, but I just sorta accepted it since everyone around me believed it.
The thing is. Setting up a trap and then putting someone inside it and then telling them to be careful of the trap, but if they want out of the trap all they have to do is worship you is just manipulation and abuse. That isn’t actual love. “Love me or burn in the fires I created to punish you if you don’t.” isn’t love… And isn’t worthy of praise or worship. If a person did that to someone else you would call them a monster.
Okay, but IF it is the way that it is because God made it that way, what is the use of getting angry about it? Is that not just going to make it worse? Also, wouldn’t you at least rather be informed about it in advance instead of having to puzzle it out yourself over many, many years? That would only make it more agonizing, wouldn’t it.
And have you considered that perhaps the entire story is merely an allegory that describes the internal experience of growing into a fully formed human being, with all the troubles, pitfalls, and vicissitudes that might befall one on the way? And that perhaps the worship of God is ultimately just about learning how to love and respect yourself with all of the flaws and problems you inevitably have?
What if the only lie they told you in church was that God was to be found somewhere out there in the world, and that someone other than you was more capable of communicating with him when He is actually inside of your own head, about two inches from the top, right between your eyes? Would that change your opinion on any of these things or would you continue to be angry about all of it?
I think that it is quite disingenuous to imply that religion doesn’t claim it is a literal god. They do. At least the big 3 do. And all the evangelical ones do. Literal god. Literal scenarios. Not a psychological technique to find some inner peace, but a literal good vs evil reality is what they all claim.
And no that wouldn’t change my opinion on it because all of that can just as easily be achieved without religion. In fact it is far easier and better without religion skewing it all. I spent years as a kid being terrified I was broken and evil and wrong because religion told me, in no uncertain terms, that I was. And despite my best attempts I couldn’t ever get close to being the perfect little follower when it seemed like everyone else was. Spoiler, they were all faking it just like I was, because they were all afraid they weren’t good enough. It’s all performative. All of it.
You’ll definitely be converting the masses with that sanctimonious attitude.
Do you have a moment to talk about my lord and savior Big Tony? He wants to love you. Follow his every word and obey and believe and worship him or he’ll break ya legs and send yas ta swim with da fishes. Yeah, see. But he loves you.
It’s not a protection bribe, it’s tithing.
It would be a shame if something bad was to happen to ya. Join Big Tony’s today. Tony is watching. Tony wants to protect you, but you have to accept him first. And you should want to offer him money because how great he is. Also if ya don’t Guido ova there’ll break ya legs, see?
Now let us all turn to page 274 and sing a praise for Tony.
Guess that makes two of us