vs The Expanse: we are headed for some bleak imperialist nonsense but humanity’s salvation will come from… Nevermind, we’re fucked.
Just most of us, except Amos. Amos will be fine.
He is that guy
Nothing this guy can’t shrug off. Litterally.
He’s got the shotgun, you’ve got the briefcase. All in the game, though.
The expense always looked like almost utopic to me.
Truly ? What aspects of it ?
I mean they do have universal basic income on earth but apart from that humanity is all kinds of fucked. And it doesn’t exactly get better as the story progresses.
The fact that the earth is even united and not completely screwed is already a great start. It was even recovering from climate change before Inaros.
The earth is united like the United States is united. The tribes just got bigger is all. Instead of NATO vs BRICS, the Expanse universe has Earthers vs Martians vs Belters. And people are suffering hard on earth as evidenced during Bobby’s trip to the ocean.
Everyone starts to come together in the last book though.
In a very… Specific way.
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The earthers are not doing that bad in the beginning that is true. But the rest of the system have it rough.
To be fair to Inaros he did end global warming and the overpopulation of earth.
Inaros did nothing wrong.
Chrissie’s fabulous saris
Fair enough.
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Mostly they suffer from extreme boredom and mediocre lives. Nothing drastic but soul suckingly unfulfilling.
You mean dystopic right … right?
Not at all. It always looked like something in between for me. Humanity is still struggling but moving forward, and most people live under various kind of regimes but no big bad Empire.
Well the belters have it pretty rough and Mars is basically totalitarian. And without spoiling anything I’d suggest you keep reading, it is worth it :).
Winston Duarte has entered the chat.
The chat has become Winston Duarte.
So you would enjoy the belter life much?
Belters are a vast minority, though.
So?
Thing is, the Asimov Foundation universe could actually fit in the “past” of the Dune universe.
This idea is oddly fascinating. Now we just need a good sci-fi writer to produce the “missing link”.
Maybe the robots in Asimov’s universe lead to the creation of Erasmus and eventually the Butlerian Jihad.
Yes, that was my idea too :)
In the non-canon book Psychohistorical Crisis, the Dune universe is part of the past of the Foundation universe. The Fremon are known as the “Frightful People” to historians.
I’ll let you all guess which one was published in the 50s and which one was published in the 60s.
Both of these are terrible takes on the books.
Spice is not a solution in dune in fact the whole 4th book and the end of the third are centered around forcing humanity to wean itself off spice so that it may evolve.
The central concept is that humanity must not depend on machine or drugs or complicated eugenics and must instead look inwards and improve itself by facing hardship.
In foundation (at least the start) the complicated maths is essentially there to prove that all establishments fail and survival requires constant change. Very differently from dune foundation sees technological superiority as key to this and importantly the ability for society to change in order to support the technological progress.
Even if you don’t agree with the above neither book aims to “fight imperialist bullshit” if anything they both quite staunchly support the idea of a benevolent dictator controlling all.
Or is Dune about the folly of different types of dictatorship; sadistic, benevolent, religious or machiavellian? Taking only the first book (because that’s as far as I’ve read) every leader is thwarted or confined by the consequences or weakness of their own style of leadership.
I read an interview where frank said that his intention was for Dune to be a cautionary tale about the dangers of charismatic leaders (which is to say, the “classic” hero archetype). Which - for the first book - tracks pretty well. The free are basically just used as cannon fodder for Paul to win back his power (and a lot more), then when he wins, he sets them loose on the universe because he can’t control them.
The trouble I have with that though is that he goes on to contradict that point in later books, but I won’t get into that because I don’t want to spoil anything for you
bitch better have my giant exo-foreskin
It’s honestly crazy how many people can read Dune and completely misunderstand the themes of the book.
Though to be fair, it sometimes feels like Frank himself didn’t fully understand what themes he was going for. Books 1-3 were staunchly “Beware of heroes, charismatic leaders will lead you to evil and despair”, then in GEoD, we find that literally the only hope for humanity was millenia of oppression by a totalitarian government.
But either of those two takes is still wildly better than “spice saves the universe” lol
Dune has one of the most complex (and necessarily logical) universe in it. I’m not surprised every reader found different themes more fitting.
Dune had no good guys, none at all.
Everyone was out for themselves or their narrow view of what was just and best for humanity from their simplistic and self-centered perspective.
Leto 2 was the exception because he was out for his narrow view of what was best for humanity from his broad, self-centered perspective that still didn’t really lead anywhere.
The actual point of the books is that no ideal survives the test of real time, and over time civilization tends to ossify, so we are doomed to catastrophe by our very nature.
It wasn’t the qctual only hope, just the only path Paul and Leto could see, and we know they aren’t omniscient
Ok but to be fair they were using spice for like 5000 years?
better do both just in case
edit: guys maths is HARD
MATH AND DRUGS ARE THE KEYS TO EVERYTHING
Source: myself, a computer science major
Lmao, good to know CS majors haven’t changed.
I’ll see you at Furlong in a few, it’s just a matter of time now.
I’m sure there are drugs that make math easy. We just need to find them.
From the Wikipedia page for Paul Erdős:
After his mother’s death in 1971 he started taking antidepressants and amphetamines, despite the concern of his friends, one of whom (Ron Graham) bet him $500 that he could not stop taking them for a month. Erdős won the bet, but complained that it impacted his performance: “You’ve showed me I’m not an addict. But I didn’t get any work done. I’d get up in the morning and stare at a blank piece of paper. I’d have no ideas, just like an ordinary person. You’ve set mathematics back a month.”[66] After he won the bet, he promptly resumed his use of Ritalin and Benzedrine.[67]
Melange, I’m sure. Seeing how it enables you to fold space, I’m assuming it also helps with the math involved.
If it also helps with the math of folding fitted sheets, I’m in!
No form of science or magic can help that. It’s impossible.
They don’t make it easy. They make it better. Source: am mathematician.
[Relevant]
math is fun!
Masochist!
Mathochist!
Asimov: weird mutants capable of overthrowing the universe should be put down with prejudice.
Frank Herbert: weird mutants capable of overthrowing the universe should be made emperor.
the mule did nothing wrong!
If you read Foundation til the end (Foundation and Earth), you’d see that it’s the other way around.
Neither of the stories present salvation, merely survival.
Iain M. Banks: we’re living in an AI-regulated Utopia, but the AI that we totally trust might be doing some light imperialism on the side.
Pratchett / Baxter: we’re headed for some bleak imperialist nonsense, and another one, and another one, and another one, and oops, a blank…
Edit: added the Long Earth one.
The Culture stuff is great but nothing tops The Algebraist. Pretty much the perfect standalone sf doorstop imo.
Big ideas, some laughs, a mystery that you can solve if you’re paying attention, strong characters, interesting aliens…
The last one that hit that sweet spot for me was Mother of Storms by John Barnes.
Warhammer 40k:
we’re headed for some bleak imperial nonsense butBY THE GOD EMPEROR SUCH HERESY IS INTOLERABLE.Not totally true, like Asimov’s math wanted to reinstate the Imperium, so is kinda the other way arround.
Yes, it was The Mule that introduced the anomaly.
vs Hyperion:
Dan Simmons: We’re headed for some bleak imperialism nonsense but humanity’s salvation will come from serving AIs we haven’t discovered yet.
Don’t we eventually find out the AIs are oppressing the humans and siphoning off their life-force/brain-power through the use of the portal system and that humanity’s actual salvation comes from deeply believing in the power of love to the point of developing the ability to teleport to beloved places and people?
Did that guy even read the books? Sounds very much like he did not. I will explain on the example of foundation, naturally this contains severe spoilers:
spoiler
In the foundation saga, the interdisciplinary science of psycho-history developed by Seldon is much more than just a new kind of math. It´s actually a complex combination of three sciences, which are history, (mass) psychology and mathematics. However later, when the second foundations existence is revealed it turns out that additionally the solution was also reliant on telepathy and in general mentalism. Later it is then revealed that a major part of the solution has been benevolent robots, secretly protecting humanity from the shadows. Considering all this I say this guy has obviously no idea what he is talking about.
Also, Dune is not about salvation. It’s about a horrible monarchic system being overthrown and replaced with a horrible monarchic system because drugs let some kid see the future.
I always read it as like, radical Islamic Star wars.
You have the whole rebellion and the chosen one and the mystical powers and everything but instead of it being a blonde haired blue-eyed white boy it’s a dark haired man incorporated into a desert tribe
Ackshually… this is a drastic oversimplification for the sake of delivering a joke.
Seriously? I always thought jokes were supposed to be … you know … funny?!
IN dune, the imperialist “nonsense” was the path to salvation. Genocide by machines was what we were saved from.
yeah, they went well past the Asimov case.
Also the spice is never deemed a path to salvation. it is merely an integral ressource that is stabilizing the human order by mutual dependence. In the later books the problem is explored what happens when the ressource becomes less integral/more abundant, removing the mutual dependence.
I don’t really agree that the spice wasn’t put forward as a way to salvation. I think it clearly was key to finding the golden path.
The spice enabled the Bene Gesserit to see what was needed in their breeding program, and they were trying to breed Kwisatz Haderwch who would lead humanity through a dangerous time, avoiding the destruction of the race.
Leto II uses the spice to see the golden path and forge humanity into what it needs to be to survive. (Also the other thing which I haven’t mentioned due to major spoilers of a cool moment).
The spice is pretty clearly necessary for the path taken to salvation.
While the spice may not have been necessary to avoid the destruction of the human race had another path been found, in the story as it was told it was absolutely key.
But that is less the spice and more the prescience. The prescience that failed Paul. Leto II seemed to be clear for the golden path not from the self fullfilling lock-in that prescience created, but from his ability to mediate the other voices he incurred from the spice agony. Something the Bene Gesserit thought only women to be capeable off, but never managed to put to the effect like Leto II could.
Also Leto II was the tyrant and very explicit about his choice of tyranny as the mean to create the golden path, so certainly not a salvation from imperial nonsense.
So i’d say the spice to be crucial in fullfilling many purposes, but it was never the path to salvation itself and it created many more problems along the way.
The spice is the source of the prescience, I don’t think you can draw a line between them (the Tleilaxu could, but even then I think they used what they called synthetic spice, I don’t really recall that very well though).
Aside for that point, yep, I agree with pretty much everything you said!
Unless I’m missing something?
You are not missing something and i agree with your points. I was happy to discuss dune with you, as i get the chance way to seldom. Thank you :)
Peter Watts: We’re already deep in some bleak dystopian hellhole which isn’t even imperialist. We tried to bring salvation via transhumanism and utilitarianism, but that shit backfired like nothing else ever has. All humans died and vampires (that humans created because why the hell not?) took over.
Oh, there are some alien eldritch horrors lurking in the fringes of the solar system. They present a threat even for the vamps.
Pellegrino & Zebrowski: The story, taking place in some deep dystopian hellhole trying to bring salvation, begins with alien eldritch horrors wiping out 99.99% of humans with r-bombs.
And then it gets worse.
I’ve tried to read Dune a few times and quit I have read all of foundation however. Not saying foundation is better but Dune is probably just not for me.
As someone who hadn’t read a novel in over a decade, the first 100-200 pages of dune were such a slog but now I’m on book 6
