“Don’t try to be a great man, just be a man and let history make it’s own judgements.”

  • 84 Posts
Joined 16 days ago
Cake day: May 31st, 2024


  • Me: The problem is that when straight people are in a gay bar we have to second guess whether or not they’re straight which defeats the entire purpose of a gay bar which is to be assured that someone is gay.

    You: Yeah but a refusal shouldn’t be a problem.

    The refusal isn’t the problem. The problem is that it isn’t for you. Why is it that women are allowed to have women only gyms but we can’t have a bar.

    There is no reason these spaces cannot be safe, as well as including allies. If you want to presuppose violent intent based on orientation, that’s your issue, not anyone else’s.

    But lets take your opinion seriously for a fraction of a second and adopt it. Does it have a limit and if so where is it? Gay bars are fine but what about LGBTQ+ shelters and group homes? I mean, we’re just presupposing violent intent based on orientation, right? So clearly that isn’t a thing anymore. We can’t have those spaces. “But that’s ridiculous, of course we need those spaces” would completely undermine your entire argument and that one can pressuppose violent intent based on orientation which is something our community actively does because we’re actively persecuted. But lets handwave away that argument and move on to something else. Male only bathhouses. Are they allowed to keep existing? Or are they forced to become co-ed to cater to all sexual orientations?

    Things are not black and white like you’re trying to pretend they are. It’s very, very grey and that line of ‘presupposing violent intent based on orientation’ is frankly ridiculous.

    I’m done with engaging with you. You haven’t offered a single rebuttal that had any sense at all. You’re just being dismissive and doing exactly what I said. Being wildly entitled by putting your own personal feelings above everyone else and rejecting any alternative other than your own narrative. So much so that you are not even bothering to engage with half of what I say because you don’t have an answer. You just don’t care about anyone other than yourself. I’m done feeding your ego.

  • Flip gay and straight in your post, and try to think about how the statement could ever possibly be justified.

    Okay. It literally takes half a second worth of thought. If you flip the argument it’s the majority actively suppressing the minority. In its current form it’s a minority trying to protect its identity, culture and community.

    That wasn’t the take you thought it was. That argument could be used to say that minorities do not get to have their own minority specific spaces to celebrate themselves

  • Then it is like I said. You are actively putting your own feelings above the group and ignoring the core purpose of it.

    For the record, I’m from Toronto. So, I am in a very tolerant place. The problem is that it’s too fucking tolerant. We’ve been pushed out of our places. Church/Wellesley used to be the bustling the center of gay town and it’s been utterly gentrified by straight people who felt more and more comfortable in all of the gay bars and all of the spaces and starting turning the entire area into something homogenous. It fragmented the community and resulted in a second gay area starting up. Why? Because we got pushed out of our space with tolerance. We couldn’t be ourselves anymore. We couldn’t hit on someone randomly in the bar because they might be straight. Suddenly the entire atmosphere drastically shifted from a relaxed vibe for us to a minefield. Slowly turned into just another straight bar. We had to go back to figuring out whether or not someone was straight first, something that is insanely exhausting. So we had to go and make yet another space that was just for us where that wouldn’t happen and we could just be ourselves. No stressing over that. No second guessing whether or not they were gay. Having an assurance of it and being free.

    And you’re right. The downvotes aren’t just entitled straights. It’s also entitled LGBTQ+ folk and LGBTQ+ folk who are completely ignorant of their own history and community.

    We’re currently on step 3.

  • You should refuse out of common courtesy. Your gay friend doesn’t get to override the entire purpose of those spaces. Your gay friend doesn’t get to make everyone else feel unsafe. Your gay friend might know that you’re okay but the rest of the bar doesn’t. We go there with the expectation that other people are going to be gay. You know, thus the term ‘gay bar’. We go there to be amongst ourselves and not to have to worry even for a second that someone is going to be outside of the group and working against us.

    We’re currently on stage 3.

  • Said by a person who has no idea what they are about and no frame of reference. Either you’re straight and just entitled and arrogant and doing exactly what I said (putting your personal feelings and opinions above those you’re actually impacting) or you’re someone who doesn’t know a single thing about your own communities history and culture. Either way, you’re an outsider looking in and your opinion is incredibly ignorant and utterly worthless.

    We live our lives in fear and hesitation. Why? Because some straight people want us dead, some straight people don’t care and some straight people support us. The problem is we can’t tell who is who so we become immediately defensive and on guard around straight people until we know whether or not we can trust that they’re not going to kill us or attack us, something that happens with alarming frequency. With the rhetoric currently existing in the world that only heightens the nervousness for us. By you being there at all you are completely changing the atmosphere. What goes from “We are among each other and safe” becomes “We need to protect ourselves until we know whether or not they can be trusted.” And if you want to whine and say “Well, why would someone go to a gay space and just attack it” then might I suggest looking at the Pulse nightclub shooting or the Club Q attack or the shit that the entire present day movement was based off of, Stonewall.

  • Dude. It was founded on a culture of exclusion.

    What did the straights do other than exclude us? Kill us, torture us, arrest us, everything else under the sun. So we made a space for us that excluded them. A place where we could feel safe that those things wouldn’t happen.

    There is a drastic difference between inclusivity and accepting all throughout pride and the community as a whole and then saying “Certain spaces you shouldn’t be in because they’re not for you.” I don’t understand what is so difficult for people to grasp. It’s just pure entitlement. “They made this space to get away from us and feel safe, therefore we should be allowed to go in there and change the entire makeup of the space which completely nullifies the original purpose of said space.”

    It is nothing more other than pure entitlement from straight people who have managed to convince people in the community that they should be allowed in places designed to be free from them. Boundaries are allowed to exist. It isn’t all or nothing. You can be inclusive in some spaces and still say “Please stay out of these so we can be ourselves and free.” Moreover, historically when people move into safe areas that they don’t belong in, friction happens and the area fails. Either the original purpose is lost and it is no longer inherently what it was or people get hurt which makes the place feel unsafe and then it no longer is inherently what it was.

    It is supposed to be the ONE place that we don’t have to hide ourselves, be anything other than ourselves and are able to celebrate ourselves and here you are saying no. You should bring in people who aren’t that who then force us to inherently suppress ourselves due to <gestures at world>.

  • You’re completely missing the point. When straight women go to our places they become that type of people. They become the person who makes us unsafe. They become the one taking over our spaces and making us hesitate in a place for us.

    It is not a space for them. It is a space for us. Why is it so hard to comprehend the fact that you should respect those boundaries and stay out of spaces not meant for you? The level of entitlement is insane and beyond disgusting.

  • You aren’t weighing in on it while blatantly implying that the group in question is “idiotic”, okay buddy

    Again, I didn’t imply shit. You decided to make that all up on your own. So lemme get the crayons and help you out here, okay kid?

    I’m not weighing on on whether THIS is astroturfing, just saying that is blatantly wrong to say it’s exclusive to corporations or government agencies

    Look at that, wow. Almost like it’s what I said and that I’m not weighing in, huh? Kinda crazy right?

    But nah. You had to ignore that so you could hyper focus on this next part and misunderstand. Then you decided to broadcast your misunderstanding and act like I was saying something else. Instead of asking for any clarification whatsoever, you immediately assumed and acted based off of it. Acted like a child no less. So like I said, here come the crayons.

    when human beings will also willingly put themselves into idiotic groups that do idiotic things.

    Yeah. What part of that implies anything about the current situation? Nothing, right? Right. My bit about saying idiotic groups that do idiotic things was an abstract and not weighing in on the current situation as I stated. I was talking about the act of astroturfing in general with people who group up into moronic little groups and decide to astroturf. Nevermind the fact that I said explicitly that I wasn’t talking about this situation. Just that groups of people can get together and do stupid things.

    Now I’m going to block you because I have zero interest in having any sort of conversation with some backhanded redditor bullshit of “Oh I actually know what you’re really saying. You can’t fool me. I know what you actually meant, not those words that you said, but the imaginary words in my head that I have clearly seen coming from your mouth.”

    You are pathetic. But let me answer your dumb fuck questions now that you have actually asked for clarification. You know, after multiple ad hominem attacks and slew of words being shoved down my throat.

    What are you even contributing to the conversation?

    Well, like I said, I took issue with your definition of astroturfing. It is not exclusive to governments or to corporations. That is it. That is what I contributed. A fleshing out of your disingenuous definition. I didn’t care about anything else other than you acting like people can’t do this type of shit and the only people on the planet who can are corporations and governments. We have seen numerous groups of people go ahead and do this shit. Want an example? Look to literally any election or group of die hard fundamentalists. Neither of those are governments and neither of those are corporations. What they are is a group of people who are neither of the things that you originally claimed were the sole groups that could astroturf.

    Why did you waste the electricity to transmit any of the utterly worthless bytes that you did?

    Again with your absolutely fucking insane levels of delusion. Because I don’t agree with you, it’s worthless. Because you’ve shoved every opinion down my throat other than what I EXPLICITLY STATED, it’s worthless. Not because you are a shitty person who immediately started attacking someone who disagreed with you. Again, you could have asked for clarification at any point (much like you half assed are now) but didn’t. You doubled down on being an asshole.

    And why am I wasting my time responding?

    Because you know I’m right and you are terrified of being proven wrong. You have a serious ego issue where any time someone challenges you, you have a full on fucking meltdown. You are incapable of letting someone disagree with you because you have to have the last word at every possible cost, even if it means you look like an absolute fool and lying about everything that’s been said prior while openly insulting anyone who dares oppose you.

    Like I said. Grow up. Now I’m going to go back to not knowing you exist and living in reality instead of whatever fairytale nonsense you’ve carved up for yourself where you’re the main character who’s always right.