Some argue it was intentional, others argue it was effectively colossal mismanagement and incompetence, and most seem to think it was a degree of both of those.
What part of ‘Millions starved to death after Stalin directed a massive restructuring of the agricultural system of Ukraine’ narrative are liberal historians taking issue with?
What never ceases to amaze me is the sheer shameless hypocrisy of anti-communists. So quick to attribute every problem in socialist countries to socialism or its leaders, yet when something of equivalent magnitude like the Great Depression happens which also produces millions of victims you never attribute it to “colossal mismanagement and incompetence”, let alone genocidal intent. Even when such intent is quite clearly demonstrable like in the famines in colonized Ireland, colonized India and many other instances in the global south where colonialism, imperialism and capitalism have and continue to murder many millions more than socialism ever has… But under capitalism that’s just an unfortunate natural occurrence i suppose.
Oh ok wow it was a couple of quotes of historians saying it wasnt intentional genocide followed by one who noted there was a famine.
Yes. Yes there was a famine. That was greatly exacerbated by both the absurd production quotas put on Ukraine to supply many other parts of the Soviet Union by Stalin, and also exacerbated by again incompetent execution of the reorganization of basically all agricultural production in Ukraine.
The post doesnt even cite anything that even disputes that.
You never named any liberal historian of which you claimed there are multiple who would prove your argument, you just called them all Nazis instead.
So let me tell you: You are not immune to propoganda. And Stalin was and literally as evidenced by you right now, still is, one of the most effective propogandists of all time.
And you did the thing, time for me to go read a bunch of tankie nonsense.
Hell, I might do it. Assuming I am not entirely banned from all of ml lemmy for pointing out that China is actually a dystopian surveillance state capitalist society with draconian limitations on personal freedom, but yes they did modernize and industrialize quite effectively.
I am apparently blaming socialism for the holodomor here, not you know, Stalin and his bolsheviks.
Bud if you have not figured this out yet youre talking to an anarcho communist whose done more actual real world praxis for the poor and the down trodden, in the real world, actually helping to house literally thousands of homeless or home insecure in the real world, in the course of a year than youll ever do in in your whole life arguing over which red fascist’s theory is the best and why on the internet.
The best argument I heard that busts the whole narrative open is that you never hear about the famines that happened in the nearby areas. Turns out the one thing that gave Ukraine special attention over the other places is, lo and behold, that there were a fuck ton of nazis there.
There were a ‘fuck ton’ of Nazis in Ukraine from 1931 to 1933?
You are telling me Ukraine was full of Nazis during a time period nearly totally before the Enabling Act, while all the Nazis were streetfighting in Germany and devoting all their resources to taking over the German Societt and Government, that they sent fucktons of their membership over to the Soviet Union to… do unspecified things, and that Stalin and the Bolsheviks either did not notice this or were not displeased enough by this to not ally with Hitler to allow him to take France and the low countries and split up Poland less than a decade later?
Stalin, who was famously in disbelief that Hitler reneged on his pact with him due to apparently actually trusting him to some degree, this same Stalin either did not notice or did not mind a fuck ton of Nazis causing a famine that killed millions in his country?
???
And I mean source as in like any kind of historical documentation of this, or a comprehensive review of such evidence published in some way, not some zany idea some internet tankie made up as fanfiction for their alternate reality novel.
Really, who?
Some argue it was intentional, others argue it was effectively colossal mismanagement and incompetence, and most seem to think it was a degree of both of those.
What part of ‘Millions starved to death after Stalin directed a massive restructuring of the agricultural system of Ukraine’ narrative are liberal historians taking issue with?
Yeah, that “some” are the Nazis and other rabid anti-communists with zero evidence
Given the fact that all serious historians admit there is no evidence of any intent, that is a bare faced lie.
Let’s not rehash this same topic for the millionth time, it’s been discussed ad nauseam: https://lemmygrad.ml/post/1155
What never ceases to amaze me is the sheer shameless hypocrisy of anti-communists. So quick to attribute every problem in socialist countries to socialism or its leaders, yet when something of equivalent magnitude like the Great Depression happens which also produces millions of victims you never attribute it to “colossal mismanagement and incompetence”, let alone genocidal intent. Even when such intent is quite clearly demonstrable like in the famines in colonized Ireland, colonized India and many other instances in the global south where colonialism, imperialism and capitalism have and continue to murder many millions more than socialism ever has… But under capitalism that’s just an unfortunate natural occurrence i suppose.
Oh ok wow it was a couple of quotes of historians saying it wasnt intentional genocide followed by one who noted there was a famine.
Yes. Yes there was a famine. That was greatly exacerbated by both the absurd production quotas put on Ukraine to supply many other parts of the Soviet Union by Stalin, and also exacerbated by again incompetent execution of the reorganization of basically all agricultural production in Ukraine.
The post doesnt even cite anything that even disputes that.
You never named any liberal historian of which you claimed there are multiple who would prove your argument, you just called them all Nazis instead.
So let me tell you: You are not immune to propoganda. And Stalin was and literally as evidenced by you right now, still is, one of the most effective propogandists of all time.
What a perfect little tankie you are.
And you did the thing, time for me to go read a bunch of tankie nonsense.
Hell, I might do it. Assuming I am not entirely banned from all of ml lemmy for pointing out that China is actually a dystopian surveillance state capitalist society with draconian limitations on personal freedom, but yes they did modernize and industrialize quite effectively.
I am apparently blaming socialism for the holodomor here, not you know, Stalin and his bolsheviks.
Bud if you have not figured this out yet youre talking to an anarcho communist whose done more actual real world praxis for the poor and the down trodden, in the real world, actually helping to house literally thousands of homeless or home insecure in the real world, in the course of a year than youll ever do in in your whole life arguing over which red fascist’s theory is the best and why on the internet.
Bella Ciao.
The best argument I heard that busts the whole narrative open is that you never hear about the famines that happened in the nearby areas. Turns out the one thing that gave Ukraine special attention over the other places is, lo and behold, that there were a fuck ton of nazis there.
Source?
There were a ‘fuck ton’ of Nazis in Ukraine from 1931 to 1933?
You are telling me Ukraine was full of Nazis during a time period nearly totally before the Enabling Act, while all the Nazis were streetfighting in Germany and devoting all their resources to taking over the German Societt and Government, that they sent fucktons of their membership over to the Soviet Union to… do unspecified things, and that Stalin and the Bolsheviks either did not notice this or were not displeased enough by this to not ally with Hitler to allow him to take France and the low countries and split up Poland less than a decade later?
Stalin, who was famously in disbelief that Hitler reneged on his pact with him due to apparently actually trusting him to some degree, this same Stalin either did not notice or did not mind a fuck ton of Nazis causing a famine that killed millions in his country?
???
And I mean source as in like any kind of historical documentation of this, or a comprehensive review of such evidence published in some way, not some zany idea some internet tankie made up as fanfiction for their alternate reality novel.
sorry for showing good faith I won’t do it again.
You absolutely did not show good faith so continuing to do so wont be a problem for you.
Whatever, fascist.