It’s always been a project that was set up by antisemites and imperialists/colonizers. There are various posts here linking the foundation of the Zionist entity with, literally, Nazi Germany.
It did not take very long for them to reverse course on their support for this project though and attempt to offer their own alternative autonomous zone in the soviet union instead.
You are analysing the situation with the benefit of the internet and hindsight. It was significantly less clear at the time with the information they had.
It did not take very long for them to reverse course on their support for this project though and attempt to offer their own alternative autonomous zone in the soviet union instead.
Yeah, but, at the time when it was being formed, Israel was already supported by UK, US, and Nazi Germany to varying degrees since the beginning. Antisemites supported it from the beginning and, yes, stuck around, unlike USSR, but it is still a terrible look that USSR ever supported it. So, I don’t think that should be the selling point for why USSR/Marxists are not antisemitic. It actually supports the point of the other user, which is to say, that there’s probably a history of at least some antisemitism among USSR/Marxists.
You are analysing the situation with the benefit of the internet and hindsight. It was significantly less clear at the time with the information they had.
Well, this argument could be made about pretty much anything, sure. It’s kind of a pointless thing to say. I shouldn’t be critical of the move to support Zionism because I know better? Anyway, I’m not even saying this is definitive proof of virulent and perversive (pervasive, even) antisemitism in Marxist history, that’s not my point, but including this as a proof to dispel the idea of antisemitism in Marxism/USSR is laughably ironic.
I think the relations building caused by being allies against the nazis for ww2 caused several miscalculations. That and of course the horrors of the events of ww2 and meaning well with regards to protecting the jewish people.
This seems fairly plain to me. I’m not sure why it needs to be complicated? It seems easy to miscalculate that the project to give jews a home is a good thing in light of the holocaust rather than an antisemitic thing, particularly when everyone involved is actively spreading anti-holocaust information and germany was being reconstructed into a non-nazi entity.
I’d have to double check but I feel like I recall reading even Einstein supported it until to became clearer it was a mistake.
My point is that, even at the time, antisemites had always supported Israel and now sitting here and citing Stalin’s (debatable) support for Israel as proof of Marxism/USSR not being antisemitic is simply not a good point of evidence. I agree, I don’t understand why it has to get complicated? Even if USSR had good intentions, using that as proof against Leftists today arguing that there was antisemitism in USSR/Marxism just won’t work well.
If we take a counterfactual and pretend that Stalin vehemently opposed the creation of Israel, would this be better as a point of evidence that Communists are not antisemitic? I don’t think so. I think that if that were the case, it would be a widely used example by anti-communists that Communists are antisemitic, since they opposed the creation of a Jewish state in the wake of the Holocaust.
There are also other comments saying Stalin did not support Israel but was pushed to by Zionist people in the USSR before reversing course.
And the point isn’t about how anti-Communists interpret anything, they interpret anything and everything in bad faith so they’re irrelevant. There’s someone here saying there was antisemitism in USSR/Marxist circles (NOT my argument, by the way) when you responded with the proof that it isn’t the case because, among other things, Stalin helped found Israel. My argument is that is not a good piece of evidence there and you probably shouldn’t use it in the future if you don’t want to make yourself and USSR look particularly bad.
I know. Israel is not a good country, but I think it’s an acceptable example given the historical context of the 1940s.
It’s not even about the current context, though.
It’s always been a project that was set up by antisemites and imperialists/colonizers. There are various posts here linking the foundation of the Zionist entity with, literally, Nazi Germany.
It did not take very long for them to reverse course on their support for this project though and attempt to offer their own alternative autonomous zone in the soviet union instead.
You are analysing the situation with the benefit of the internet and hindsight. It was significantly less clear at the time with the information they had.
Yeah, but, at the time when it was being formed, Israel was already supported by UK, US, and Nazi Germany to varying degrees since the beginning. Antisemites supported it from the beginning and, yes, stuck around, unlike USSR, but it is still a terrible look that USSR ever supported it. So, I don’t think that should be the selling point for why USSR/Marxists are not antisemitic. It actually supports the point of the other user, which is to say, that there’s probably a history of at least some antisemitism among USSR/Marxists.
Well, this argument could be made about pretty much anything, sure. It’s kind of a pointless thing to say. I shouldn’t be critical of the move to support Zionism because I know better? Anyway, I’m not even saying this is definitive proof of virulent and perversive (pervasive, even) antisemitism in Marxist history, that’s not my point, but including this as a proof to dispel the idea of antisemitism in Marxism/USSR is laughably ironic.
I think the relations building caused by being allies against the nazis for ww2 caused several miscalculations. That and of course the horrors of the events of ww2 and meaning well with regards to protecting the jewish people.
This seems fairly plain to me. I’m not sure why it needs to be complicated? It seems easy to miscalculate that the project to give jews a home is a good thing in light of the holocaust rather than an antisemitic thing, particularly when everyone involved is actively spreading anti-holocaust information and germany was being reconstructed into a non-nazi entity.
I’d have to double check but I feel like I recall reading even Einstein supported it until to became clearer it was a mistake.
Sure, my point is not that though.
My point is that, even at the time, antisemites had always supported Israel and now sitting here and citing Stalin’s (debatable) support for Israel as proof of Marxism/USSR not being antisemitic is simply not a good point of evidence. I agree, I don’t understand why it has to get complicated? Even if USSR had good intentions, using that as proof against Leftists today arguing that there was antisemitism in USSR/Marxism just won’t work well.
If we take a counterfactual and pretend that Stalin vehemently opposed the creation of Israel, would this be better as a point of evidence that Communists are not antisemitic? I don’t think so. I think that if that were the case, it would be a widely used example by anti-communists that Communists are antisemitic, since they opposed the creation of a Jewish state in the wake of the Holocaust.
Unironically, yes, it would be better.
There are also other comments saying Stalin did not support Israel but was pushed to by Zionist people in the USSR before reversing course.
And the point isn’t about how anti-Communists interpret anything, they interpret anything and everything in bad faith so they’re irrelevant. There’s someone here saying there was antisemitism in USSR/Marxist circles (NOT my argument, by the way) when you responded with the proof that it isn’t the case because, among other things, Stalin helped found Israel. My argument is that is not a good piece of evidence there and you probably shouldn’t use it in the future if you don’t want to make yourself and USSR look particularly bad.