Why do people here really not like Trotskyists? Is it just because of his beef with Stalin and not an actual criticism of his views? Do people really not think a global movement would be superior for the betterment of all people?

Edit: Thank you to everyone who provided context and history, y’all are a wealth of knowledge.

  • FanonFan [comrade/them, any]@hexbear.netEnglish
    6·
    8 months ago

    Yeah but his position (from my limited analysis) was an incredibly dogmatic Marxist position, which despite being wrong wasn’t exactly some random crazy idea, especially without the benefit of hindsight. Sacrifice everything for the European revolution because it was more industrially advanced than Russia.

    If the Soviet Union had immediately fallen or been crushed by the Nazis (as Trotsky later seemingly wanted to happen???) the idea might have more merit in retrospect. But that didn’t happen so he’s anti-vindicated. And the like 700k to 7k vote against Trotsky demonstrates that it wasn’t supported at the time either.

    • GarbageShoot [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
      6·
      8 months ago

      If the Soviet Union had immediately fallen or been crushed by the Nazis (as Trotsky later seemingly wanted to happen???)

      I’m familiar with a fair amount of Trotsky bullshit but I haven’t seen this one. Can you share a source?

      • FanonFan [comrade/them, any]@hexbear.netEnglish
        6·
        8 months ago

        I’m at work so don’t have Trotsky’s books with me, but I doubt he explicitly said as much, more that one might be drawn to that conclusion from his words and actions. It’s the impression I get when reading about the sabotage and disinformation that continued to happen even when it was clear a Nazi invasion was imminent.

        I do have the Losurdo book, so here’s what I can find with a quick skim:

        Trotsky in 1939:

        On the road to the abyss Hitler can not only crush Poland, but he can give the Soviet Union such blows as to cost the Kremlin oligarchy their heads.

        Losurdo quotes Volkogonov (anti-Stalin historian):

        In [Trotsky’s] prophecies about the impending war there is a sense of insecurity: the exile knew that only a defeat of his homeland could put an end to Stalin’s power[…]. He desired war, because in this war he saw the only possibility of overthrowing Stalin. But Trotsky did not want to admit this even to himself

        Also quotes Goebbels’ diary talking about the Third Reich working with Trotskyist radio stations, although that was after Trotsky’s assassination.

      • FanonFan [comrade/them, any]@hexbear.netEnglish
        2·
        8 months ago

        Yes, but the point is wrong doesn’t mean insane or stupid, and it doesn’t serve any of us to engage with ideas with this kind of reddit-tier irony-poisoned otherizing.

        Like I sincerely hope self-described leftists can think in more complex ways than soyjak and chad, but over the last few months I’ve come to doubt that’s universally true on this site.

        • Muad'Dibber@lemmygrad.mlEnglish
          2·
          8 months ago

          I don’t think many of us are engaging with Trotskyism in a shallow way in this post. We’re critiquing his Eurocentrism, wrong view of the peasantry being a reactionary class, and opposition to AES.

          I 100% agree that “dunk culture” and thought-terminating terms aren’t helpful, and we should elaborate why we think something is wrong.