I’m not even American, so it doesn’t affect me directly, but I am scared to death of a Trump presidency.

I am one of those people here who think that Biden is a far more competent executor of imperialist policies compared to Trump, but what I am even more afraid of is the early death of nascent left wing movements in America.

I am reminded of how the KPD getting its leaders murdered by Freikorps thugs during the Spartacist uprising (mind you, a much stronger party than any leftist movement in America today), and how its continued suppression paved the way to Nazi Germany.

Project 2025 will effectively embolden fascist thugs in America to do the same to the left wing movements, many of which are still in their cradle, and the death of leftist movements in their infancies will inevitably pave the way to a fascist America and undo many of the progress that had been made over decades.

The world cannot afford a fascist America. Imagine Hitler with nukes. The world will have to pay a much, much larger price as a result.

On this reasoning alone, I believe that Trump needs to be stopped at all cost. But many here have disagreed with me, and I need you to persuade me why I shouldn’t be afraid of Project 2025 at all. Even if the chance of that happening is 10%, I’m still not ready to gamble with it.

(I’m not saying we have to support Biden, I believe it is somewhat inevitable, I’m saying that we have to buy ourselves as much time as possible, even if it means strategic voting, to build a resilient leftist movement while delaying the inevitable for as long as we can.)

  • Egon [they/them]@hexbear.netEnglish
    24·
    9 months ago

    A vote for someone is approval of them. It legitimises them. We’re not being casual, that’s just what a vote is.

    You are voting for your representative. Your vote signals approval of said representative. Or does Biden come to your house after you’ve voted for him, to ask you “hey Jack, what kind of vote was it you gave me? Do you support me a lot or just kind of?” biden-alert
    Voting legitimises the government. The US has, time and again, used the fact that it’s government is elected (never mind the fact that voter participation is low and popular vote doesn’t matter) to impose it’s will on countries which has “wrong democracies”.

    I stopped reading after your first two blocks of text, because it’s clear you’re just doing handwringing and semantics wrapped with some slight condescention. I’m not interested in simple rhetorical debatebroisms, and I’m not interested in your lib-cliches of pretending to acknowledge issues only to then trivialise and ignore them, whilst completely misunderstanding what is actually being said. Misunderstanding being the charitable interpretation.

    I’m sure the rest of the text is you speaking about the climate in some dumbass manner and saying some dumb bullshit about how Biden “at least lets us work with him” or whatever. Probably something akin to “sure it’s not as fast as you’d want, but at least it’s something”. The world is going to burn and you will sit in the rubble wondering what happened. I’ll bet 5$ that you say some variation of “we can work on pushing Biden left” jotaro-walk

    It’s clear you have no concept of how political power is wielded.

      • Egon [they/them]@hexbear.netEnglish
        18·
        9 months ago

        Stairway to purity

        aaaand I stopped reading. If you think “not supporting genocide” is a purity test, then you’re fucked in the head. Go vote for genocide, but don’t pretend like you give a shit.

        Another reason not read your drivel: You do not meaningfully engage with the arguments presented to you.
        You do shit like this:

        Maybe we can agree that a vote in our current system means “I approve of this alternative over the others.”

        Once again ignoring the explanation for why your vote signifies approval. Not engaging with the arguments why. This makes it clear you wish to grandstand and condescend. If you wonder why you’re being treated with derision, it is because you yourself began this interaction with a thick veneer of smugness. Therefore I and others treat you in the same way. You do not understand basic political mechanics, you do not comprehend basic reasoning presented to you, you are not interested in engaging with thoughts that are challenging your worldview, you are merely repeating the same tired lines again and again, hidden behind a facade of comradely understanding/engagement as a poor rhetorical trick to undermine those you disagree with. Fuck off back to reddit where this tired shtick isn’t as obvious.

        I do not wish to repeat myself, you are well aware why you are wrong on this point, as the material reality does not care for how you feel about the candidate. I don’t give a shit about what you feel your vote means, I care about what it does.
        The candidate will use your vote as an argument for legitimisation. I have said this twice already. You are clearly not interested in anything but soapboxing.

        Go clap for Kamala Harris and Joe “pro-bussing” “Strom Thurmond Eulogizer” “Crime Bill advocate” “mass fracker” “Tara Reade redacted” “Union Breaker” “Mass Genocider” “Abortion Banner” “Trans People Can Get Persecuted I Won’t Care” Biden continues to deport more people than Trump.

      • iie [they/them, he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
        16·
        9 months ago

        a vote in our current system means “I approve of this alternative over the others”

        Almost, but not quite.

        What a vote actually means is “I prefer the result I expect from this vote over the result I expect from the other vote.”

        If withholding your vote this time means they offer more next time, that’s a result you might want. On the other hand, if you always vote blue as long as you slightly prefer the democrats, you give the democrats permission to move to the right, slightly behind the republicans, indefinitely.

        in practice, though, they’ll always find some way to gin up votes without offering substance. that’s their whole job. shrug-outta-hecks

        Political power is wielded by those who hold office, thanks to the people who got them into office. When that is a handful of billionaires and will connected political operatives, that power is used to their benefit. To the extent that thanks is owed to small dollar working and lower class people, to thousands of door knockers and surrogates, that power will be used to their benefit.

        This is not true in the slightest.

        Why would it be? The Democrats only need to be slightly less bad than the Republicans, and your vote is guaranteed.

        And it requires that we acknowledge that we approve of what the American Left has done more than the alternative.

        1. Democrats are not the American Left.

        2. What have the Democrats actually done?

        The policies of the Democratic party are bought by corporate interests. The material interests of a corporation run directly counter to those of a worker. Workers want higher wages, companies want lower. Workers want public healthcare, insurance companies want private. Workers want less war, the MIC wants more. Workers want lower housing costs, hedge funds and landlords want higher. Who do the Democrats side with? What direction is America headed in?

        Is this a democracy or a good-cop bad-cop routine?

      • idkmybffjoeysteel [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
        16·
        9 months ago

        Biden is probably the most left wing President since Carter. That’s not saying much in a center right country, but that’s where we are today.

        Jesus Christ. Also, center right? Relative to whom, Saudi Arabia?

        That’s the American Left as it stands today. That’s what we can pull on to drag the Overton Window’s left edge farther open.

        My brother how in the hell do you think the Overton window shifted to the right in the first place? It was because of tepid endorsement of ever more right wing political parties, because at least they’re not as bad as the other guy hyuck

        To the extent that thanks is owed to small dollar working and lower class people, to thousands of door knockers and surrogates, that power will be used to their benefit.

        I could understand believing this if you lived in Cuba or Vietnam or China but you have the evidence of your own experience and you are just choosing to ignore it for reasons, idk what they are, vibes?

        Although I’m guessing the next step on this stairway to purity is to complain that a vote for Biden is approval of everything the Democratic Party has ever done (and on and on) because the foundational motivation here is to feel superior without having to participate in real life politics.

        You know what, actually yes, hold people accountable for the crimes of the past, so that you don’t just blindly believe them when they tell you things will be different now (and even when they don’t)

        Maybe we can agree that a vote in our current system means “I approve of this alternative over the others.”

        Excellent point, this is why you should still make limited use of the electoral system to vote third party

      • Adkml [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
        10·
        9 months ago

        No, you can wrote as many paragraphs as you want to try to define how voting for somebody isn’t supporting them but it’s obvious bullshit.

        Maybe you can manage to convince yourself but “just because I used my vote to say this is my choice for who should be president doesn’t mean I think they should be president” is going to continue to fall on its face here.