The cold, hard truth in the war between Russia and Ukraine today is that Ukraine’s last-gasp offensive has failed, and no amount of spin will change the outcome.
Come now I am trying to ask questions in an attempt to get them to question the shit they have been immersed in from birth. As excellent a use of that emoji as that is I think we have a miniscule chance to maybe reach this person if we can get the gears turning.
The pure (libertarian) socialists’ ideological anticipations remain untainted by existing practice. They do not explain how the manifold functions of a revolutionary society would be organized, how external attack and internal sabotage would be thwarted, how bureaucracy would be avoided, scarce resources allocated, policy differences settled, priorities set, and production and distribution conducted. Instead, they offer vague statements about how the workers themselves will directly own and control the means of production and will arrive at their own solutions through creative struggle. No surprise then that the pure socialists support every revolution except the ones that succeed.
This is more of a comment on radlibs and baby anarchists, but it strikes me as appropriate here. It’s very easy to idealistically criticize everything that isn’t the way it should be. At some point, though, you have to address reality.
“When I pay for this Snickers I’m a glutton, but when I steal it I’m a thief! What we are dealing with is a nonfalsifiable orthodoxy saying that you judge me for eating a Snickers, so assiduously marketed by 7/11 that it affects cashiers across their entire national footprint.”
Not to mention that since 2022 this hasn’t been about just the Donbas any more.
Indeed, last I checked Crimea wasn’t part of the Donbas either. This has never been about “protecting the self determination” of regions that so conveniently want to be invaded by Russia (according to Russia).
How does “the US is also bad” change anything about the argument? The argument was that Russia invading and annexing territory is not an expression of self-determination for the people whose homes are being annexed. The US also doing bad shit doesn’t change anything about that because “the US annexes Donbas instead of Russia” isn’t the alternative being presented here
The thing that amuses me the most about whataboutism is that it’s so self-defeating if you think about it for more than just a few seconds. It only makes “sense” from the perspective of someone who thinks that everybody must support their own home country’s actions no matter what. Which is an authoritarian thing, not a democracy thing.
It also doesn’t account for the fact that I’m not even American, so when I see those arguments my “so what” shrug is doubly intense.
By a random dictatorship well known for destabilising and invading its neighbors, absolutely not.
Definitely not talking about the USA. You are also not aware of the fact that the USA is sending troops to Peru to back a government that is currently supported by 6% of its people. But I’m sure this has no relevance at all to the situation in Ukraine. Despite its many honest mistakes (centuries of ongoing slavery and genocide), the USA has been overall a force for good in the world!
In an ideal world where there was a good-faith international actor or organization who could take the role of moderating a referendum, and the outcome be respected by all parties, that would be ideal. However, no such organization exists. The institutions of the so-called “rules based international order” serve the interests of western hegemony. That is why, for example, Catalonia is not able to have an effective referendum for independence from Spain, and that is a perfectly fine state of affairs; just the way things are. Maybe a diplomatic complaint gets filed somewhere, maybe someone calls out how awful it is that police were interfering with the referendum in 2017, and they’re not wrong. But ultimately, nothing fundamentally changes, and that is the point.
Should people just accept the way things are until an ideal situation allows them to improve their lives in a way everyone finds acceptable? What should people do if things are only getting worse, and there are no effective, good-faith actors to mediate the best possible solution?
until an ideal situation allows them to improve their lives in a way everyone finds acceptable?
Craziest part is that a lot of people that follow that line of thinking have also at least recognized the immediacy of police and prison abolition in the context of places like the US but can’t seem to take the next step in applying the same logic to places outside the imperial core.
Russia invaded the Donbas in 2014. If they had simply sat there and kept just that, I suspect things would have stabilized in the long run. But Russia doesn’t actually care about the “self-determination” of the people in the land it attempts to conquer, that’s just a convenient excuse it used.
I’m not, Russia invaded both Crimea and the Donbas in 2014. Here’s an article on the Donbas invasion. The guy I was responding to didn’t mention Crimea and neither did I, we weren’t talking about that.
Could you be more specific? This is a 7000 word article that doesn’t appear to support your claim from a skim reading, other than possibly the August 25 entry. Though there the claim is also preceded by stating it’s a fabricated lie.
The article starts with the sentence “This is a timeline of the war in Donbas for the year 2014.” The first item on the timeline is from April 7.
I said above that Russia invaded the Donbas in 2014. This article describes the Russian invasion of the Donbas starting in 2014. The specific details of what happened after that are not particularly relevant.
Or are you still following Russia’s narrative that it was all just troops “on vacation” who were “volunteering” to go to the Donbas and fight Ukraine? With borrowed and stolen tanks and whatnot? Nobody believed that.
These aren’t Russian soldiers. This article is about the civil war in Ukraine. These are people with Ukrainian passports. The article uses the phrasing “Pro-Russian” because the separatists wanted economic integration with Russia after gaining independence. This is pragmatic, they would naturally be cut off from the west, and their existing economic integration with Russia was an asset to them. There’s no invasion detailed in this article, other than by the AFU if you consider the break away republics to have been legitimate.
Are we talking about Ukrainians living there or about Russian military in plain clothing being supplied by military trucks that accidently lose then re-find their plates with every border crossing with military good out of Russian stocks? 🤡
You’re bastarding the theory (mind you this word matters here) of SDT and trying to use it as some escapist argument for murdering other humans. Crimea was taken by force by Russians. No psychological theory changes that fact. Everything past this point is moot. Russia invaded and 2nd time and aren’t being allowed free reign this time. It has nothing to do with jingoism or theoretical psychological beliefs.
If people in a country want to secede then it is up to the country and its procedures to do so. They can have a vote (not the invaders variant as that does not count) but you will have no guarantee it will happen though.
Is this going to be a form of 4chan discussion where you will never answer but keep bouncing new questions as a form of discouragement?
Answered your question clearly. You might not like or understand it but answered it was.
And I see you have another question. So 4chan style it is for you. For being bad faith poster I will now stop discussing with you as it is painfully obvious what you want to do here.
If people in a country want to secede then it is up to the country and its procedures to do so.
Say the occupied Navajo nation (or Hawaii, or Puerto Rico…) wants to formally secede from the U.S. The U.S. says no, and says they can’t even vote on it. What then?
Without specifying a group or situation, they rules and procedures for seceding should be followed. If the process fails to deliver your wanted outcome then you have to abide to the rulings.
What is not ok is for a foreign body to interfere. Certainly not by invading said country and killing, torturing and whatnot. If secession is successful then that autonomous new country can join whatever other country at their hearts desire. But again, that other country is not to step in and force secession.
Now what if the plight is of such nature it is not sustainable? The last resort you have is revolution or civil war. Again, not the call of a foreign body to step in and start killing people.
Invading and starting a war which costs the live of innocent people is not the answer.
If the process fails to deliver your wanted outcome then you have to abide to the rulings.
So if all Puerto Ricans unanimously decide to declare independence and the U.S. says “nah,” they’re just supposed to live with that? How is that just? You even acknowledge that’s the path to a revolution or civil war, which we can both agree is a terrible option. What right does any country have to impose its will (through violence, of course) on a unified region that doesn’t wants to leave?
Once a region declares independence, why does it have to fight with one arm behind its back? Isn’t it free to seek out allies, as all warring countries have done throughout history?
Should the American Colonies have declared independence? Should they have sought the help of France to even the odds against their much stronger opponent?
Like I said, voting for or wanting a separation does not guarantee you get what you desire.
It’s up to a country to determine how and if secession is possible. If the people of the complete country disagree with this separation the it will not happen and should not happen. Are the rest of a country any less of a factor? It is their country after all.
Discussing other situations specifically is tricky here. The formation of the US for example is incredibly difficult. Where did it start? The French, British or the colonist who formed the current country?
In the case we are discussing we have to deal with country as-is, the Ukraine as a whole. If secession is wanted then this region has to follow the rules and possibilities of Ukraine. iI’m not privy to these tbh.
What is not acceptable is invading that country and start killing people. Masquerading an election as valid while invading that country is not an option to consider as fair or legitimate.
Allow me to answer your question with a question: Do you believe in the right to self determination of people in the Donbas?
Through properly monitored and implemented referendums, yeah.
By a random dictatorship well known for destabilising and invading its neighbors, absolutely not.
You say this shit like it isn’t a euphemism.
Come now I am trying to ask questions in an attempt to get them to question the shit they have been immersed in from birth. As excellent a use of that emoji as that is I think we have a miniscule chance to maybe reach this person if we can get the gears turning.
And what gives you the right to determine what “properly monitored and implemented referendums” are?
Also Russia is a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie just the same as the US so that argument holds zero water here.
I am genuinely curious what your metrics for what constitutes a legitimate referendum are.
Nothing to do with me. I’m a programmer lol
Nothing to do with the US. I wouldn’t support them invading a neighbor after a bogus vote they arranged. Whataboutism.
Independent monitors to make sure the vote is fair.
And who are these independent monitors?
–Michael Parenti, Blackshirts and Reds
This is more of a comment on radlibs and baby anarchists, but it strikes me as appropriate here. It’s very easy to idealistically criticize everything that isn’t the way it should be. At some point, though, you have to address reality.
Oh yeah I quote from that book all the time at the cash register lol
“When I pay for this Snickers I’m a glutton, but when I steal it I’m a thief! What we are dealing with is a nonfalsifiable orthodoxy saying that you judge me for eating a Snickers, so assiduously marketed by 7/11 that it affects cashiers across their entire national footprint.”
No answer to that one.
Is this supposed to be a gotcha? There are tons of international vote monitor groups. Everyone uses them all the time.
Come on, Freedom Loving Nations like Russia don’t use them to monitor their Totally Fair and Unbiased Elections.
Not to mention that since 2022 this hasn’t been about just the Donbas any more.
Indeed, last I checked Crimea wasn’t part of the Donbas either. This has never been about “protecting the self determination” of regions that so conveniently want to be invaded by Russia (according to Russia).
Are you saying Crimeans want to be part of Ukraine?
I’m saying that Crimea isn’t part of the Donbas.
Ok. I misunderstood why you contrasted with Crimea.
How does “the US is also bad” change anything about the argument? The argument was that Russia invading and annexing territory is not an expression of self-determination for the people whose homes are being annexed. The US also doing bad shit doesn’t change anything about that because “the US annexes Donbas instead of Russia” isn’t the alternative being presented here
The thing that amuses me the most about whataboutism is that it’s so self-defeating if you think about it for more than just a few seconds. It only makes “sense” from the perspective of someone who thinks that everybody must support their own home country’s actions no matter what. Which is an authoritarian thing, not a democracy thing.
It also doesn’t account for the fact that I’m not even American, so when I see those arguments my “so what” shrug is doubly intense.
Definitely not talking about the USA. You are also not aware of the fact that the USA is sending troops to Peru to back a government that is currently supported by 6% of its people. But I’m sure this has no relevance at all to the situation in Ukraine. Despite its many honest mistakes (centuries of ongoing slavery and genocide), the USA has been overall a force for good in the world!
In an ideal world where there was a good-faith international actor or organization who could take the role of moderating a referendum, and the outcome be respected by all parties, that would be ideal. However, no such organization exists. The institutions of the so-called “rules based international order” serve the interests of western hegemony. That is why, for example, Catalonia is not able to have an effective referendum for independence from Spain, and that is a perfectly fine state of affairs; just the way things are. Maybe a diplomatic complaint gets filed somewhere, maybe someone calls out how awful it is that police were interfering with the referendum in 2017, and they’re not wrong. But ultimately, nothing fundamentally changes, and that is the point.
Should people just accept the way things are until an ideal situation allows them to improve their lives in a way everyone finds acceptable? What should people do if things are only getting worse, and there are no effective, good-faith actors to mediate the best possible solution?
Craziest part is that a lot of people that follow that line of thinking have also at least recognized the immediacy of police and prison abolition in the context of places like the US but can’t seem to take the next step in applying the same logic to places outside the imperial core.
Large countries invading and annexing stuff is not a solution to any of those problems. It is a regression to an even worse system.
The UN??
And zoom, wow those goalposts can move!
Russia invaded the Donbas in 2014. If they had simply sat there and kept just that, I suspect things would have stabilized in the long run. But Russia doesn’t actually care about the “self-determination” of the people in the land it attempts to conquer, that’s just a convenient excuse it used.
But they didn’t? They invaded Crimea. If you’ve conflated the Donbas and Crimea on a map you will have a very skewed understanding of this conflict.
I’m not, Russia invaded both Crimea and the Donbas in 2014. Here’s an article on the Donbas invasion. The guy I was responding to didn’t mention Crimea and neither did I, we weren’t talking about that.
Could you be more specific? This is a 7000 word article that doesn’t appear to support your claim from a skim reading, other than possibly the August 25 entry. Though there the claim is also preceded by stating it’s a fabricated lie.
The article starts with the sentence “This is a timeline of the war in Donbas for the year 2014.” The first item on the timeline is from April 7.
I said above that Russia invaded the Donbas in 2014. This article describes the Russian invasion of the Donbas starting in 2014. The specific details of what happened after that are not particularly relevant.
Or are you still following Russia’s narrative that it was all just troops “on vacation” who were “volunteering” to go to the Donbas and fight Ukraine? With borrowed and stolen tanks and whatnot? Nobody believed that.
These aren’t Russian soldiers. This article is about the civil war in Ukraine. These are people with Ukrainian passports. The article uses the phrasing “Pro-Russian” because the separatists wanted economic integration with Russia after gaining independence. This is pragmatic, they would naturally be cut off from the west, and their existing economic integration with Russia was an asset to them. There’s no invasion detailed in this article, other than by the AFU if you consider the break away republics to have been legitimate.
Define: People in the Donbas
Are we talking about Ukrainians living there or about Russian military in plain clothing being supplied by military trucks that accidently lose then re-find their plates with every border crossing with military good out of Russian stocks? 🤡
You’re bastarding the theory (mind you this word matters here) of SDT and trying to use it as some escapist argument for murdering other humans. Crimea was taken by force by Russians. No psychological theory changes that fact. Everything past this point is moot. Russia invaded and 2nd time and aren’t being allowed free reign this time. It has nothing to do with jingoism or theoretical psychological beliefs.
So no answer then?
If people in a country want to secede then it is up to the country and its procedures to do so. They can have a vote (not the invaders variant as that does not count) but you will have no guarantee it will happen though.
Is this going to be a form of 4chan discussion where you will never answer but keep bouncing new questions as a form of discouragement?
You still did not answer my question:
What constitutes - in your eyes- “properly monitored”?
Answered your question clearly. You might not like or understand it but answered it was.
And I see you have another question. So 4chan style it is for you. For being bad faith poster I will now stop discussing with you as it is painfully obvious what you want to do here.
You literally did not answer the question.
What do you consider to be “properly monitored”?
Also I have never once posted or even visited the Nazi shithole that is 4chan so nice ad hominem.
https://feddit.nl/comment/1945149
Say the occupied Navajo nation (or Hawaii, or Puerto Rico…) wants to formally secede from the U.S. The U.S. says no, and says they can’t even vote on it. What then?
Without specifying a group or situation, they rules and procedures for seceding should be followed. If the process fails to deliver your wanted outcome then you have to abide to the rulings.
What is not ok is for a foreign body to interfere. Certainly not by invading said country and killing, torturing and whatnot. If secession is successful then that autonomous new country can join whatever other country at their hearts desire. But again, that other country is not to step in and force secession.
Now what if the plight is of such nature it is not sustainable? The last resort you have is revolution or civil war. Again, not the call of a foreign body to step in and start killing people.
Invading and starting a war which costs the live of innocent people is not the answer.
So if all Puerto Ricans unanimously decide to declare independence and the U.S. says “nah,” they’re just supposed to live with that? How is that just? You even acknowledge that’s the path to a revolution or civil war, which we can both agree is a terrible option. What right does any country have to impose its will (through violence, of course) on a unified region that doesn’t wants to leave?
Once a region declares independence, why does it have to fight with one arm behind its back? Isn’t it free to seek out allies, as all warring countries have done throughout history?
Should the American Colonies have declared independence? Should they have sought the help of France to even the odds against their much stronger opponent?
Like I said, voting for or wanting a separation does not guarantee you get what you desire.
It’s up to a country to determine how and if secession is possible. If the people of the complete country disagree with this separation the it will not happen and should not happen. Are the rest of a country any less of a factor? It is their country after all.
Discussing other situations specifically is tricky here. The formation of the US for example is incredibly difficult. Where did it start? The French, British or the colonist who formed the current country?
In the case we are discussing we have to deal with country as-is, the Ukraine as a whole. If secession is wanted then this region has to follow the rules and possibilities of Ukraine. iI’m not privy to these tbh.
What is not acceptable is invading that country and start killing people. Masquerading an election as valid while invading that country is not an option to consider as fair or legitimate.
They literally asked for protection because they tried to do what you said they should and were met by siege warfare from their own government.