Israel was never the Nazis’ victim, Jewish people were. Israel is not equal to Jewish people and this is doing a huge disservice to all the Jewish people around the world fighting against this colonial state.
Zionism is an Austrian idea, that the British started to enact after the Ottoman Empire fell in 1917. The United Nations then published their partition plan in 1947 which was followed by the Israel Declaration of Independence in 1948.
Which means yes, technically the founding was done by Holocaust Survivors, but in reality Israels history is not too dissimilar to Colonialism.
We also have to remember that prior to 1917, in order to get their cooperation, The British and French promised various Arab states land and independence after the fall of the Ottomans. Only to THEN turn around and form the Sykes-Picot agreement divvying up the land amongst themselves. This is where the idea of a Zionist state first began to be discussed and various Arab groups were betrayed to make it happen.
I’m not saying terrorists aren’t evil. But everything in the middle east is the result of “the west” fucking the people over there over for more than a hundred years.
To be fair, Jews were also massive victims of empire and colonialism. They were kicked around Europe for centuries since the Greeks and the Romans.
Now, on the fall of the Ottoman Empire all kinds of populations coalesced into nation-states (also, all while kicking out people that did not identify with the new nation - massive population exchanges at the time, millions of dead in forced marches out of a region). Most back to the heartlands of their ancestral lands - so the idea wasn’t far fetched.
Unfortunately, unlike those other populations Jews were in diaspora so long that they had kept little physical connection with that land which was now occupied mostly by Palestinians.
Fun fact: A plan was hatched to allocate a portion of Australia instead
Not really, it was started before the Holocaust, and it involved actual Nazis. See, antisemites are often quite happy with Zionism because they like the idea of an ethnostate that they can ship all the Jews off to. That’s why pre-WWII German Zionists were able to negotiate the Haavara Agreement, which allowed them to transfer their property to Palestine, and allowed 60,000 Jews to migrate there before WWII.
If someone is misinformed then you educate and correct them, not mock them. Especially when the person in question is clearly open minded and willing to learn.
And yet the people who run Israel are all Jewish. So it’s certainly fair to criticize them for committing atrocities like ones that that were done to their people in the past. The Israeli government, not Jews in general.
There, in precise mathematical notation. Yes, that’s actually a tautology, but we all know the Arab Israelis and similar aren’t in the drivers seat of anything.
Can we please stop with this shit? This is why the pro-Palestine side of this conflict keeps being branded as antisemites. Because you can’t seem to help yourself but to make arguments where “Israel” and “Jews” are interchangeable terms.
They aren’t. Jews were victims of the Holocaust. Israel was not. If you can’t tell the difference, leave the activism to the people who can.
“They” in this context clearly means “the government of Israel”, which is made up of Jews. It’s not “all Jews” it’s “these specific people in power who are also Jews”. You could use this same bullshit claim to say that criticizing the US government is anti-Christian. No, it’s not.
Instead of countering my argument, you are engaging in pedantry. You know exactly what I meant.
But for the pedants, I’ll rephrase my original statement:
FUCK ISRAEL RIGHT IN THE ASS WITH A 2x4.
The Israeli government, themselves descendants of survivors of one of the most horrific genocidal events in human history, have chosen to become perpetrators of genocide.
Sigh. The first “they” is the Israeli government, the second is Jews in general. The first “they” refers to who is committing atrocities, the second is referring to who has been the victim of atrocities historically. It’s either bad faith or obtuse of you to try to interpret it any other way.
I hate the people in the Israeli government who are committing genocide. They happen to be Jews, which means that you would think they’d try to be better based on the history of atrocities being committed against them.
Because the statement, as you present it, is more nuanced that what I usually hear people say. It isn’t the statement I originally responded to either, it’s the rewritten version you’re demanding I respond to, only after you redefined the “theys” to something that isn’t so obvious antisementic. It’s also kinda meaningless to say “The Israeli government has become the very genocidal monster that Jews were once the victims of.” written as it is, it it only serves as an attempt to compare Israel to Nazis, which isn’t off-base, but is also better communicated than this.
My issue is with what people typically mean whey they say this. 99.9% of the time, people are saying “Jews were genocided by Nazis, and now they’re genociding Palestinians”. I understand the sentiment, and why people would jump to this “the oppressed has become the oppressor” rhetoric, but this isn’t an appropriate statement. Jews aren’t attacking Gaza and its people - Israel is.
Sure, the majority of Israel’s leadership is ethnically Jewish, but that’s not a reason to blame Jews for what Israel is doing. There are countless Jews that are not Israeli, do not work for the Israeli state, and do not support what Israel is doing. Directing blame at an entire ethnic group because of what a foreign military is doing is overtly bigoted.
My issue isn’t about you, it is about the consistent anti-Israel rhetoric that fails to separate Israel from the Jewish people. You may consider your criticisms of Israel to be logical and rational, with clarity of target, so it’s probably pretty easy for you to handwaved these things away. But Jews know when people are talking about them, and the original comment I responded to was blaming Jews for what Israel is doing to Gaza.
Just because I’m anti-Israel doesn’t mean I’m turning a blind eye to Jew-hate. Downvote me all you want, downvotes aren’t anonymous here, and Antisemites deserve to be on a list when they make clear what they stand for.
Fuck Israel right in the ass with a 2x4.
They have become the very genocidal monster that they were once the victims of.
Fuck Israel.
Israel was never the Nazis’ victim, Jewish people were. Israel is not equal to Jewish people and this is doing a huge disservice to all the Jewish people around the world fighting against this colonial state.
Wasn’t modern Israel founded by Holocaust Survivors or something? I dunno history I just always heard that…
Zionism is an Austrian idea, that the British started to enact after the Ottoman Empire fell in 1917. The United Nations then published their partition plan in 1947 which was followed by the Israel Declaration of Independence in 1948.
Which means yes, technically the founding was done by Holocaust Survivors, but in reality Israels history is not too dissimilar to Colonialism.
We also have to remember that prior to 1917, in order to get their cooperation, The British and French promised various Arab states land and independence after the fall of the Ottomans. Only to THEN turn around and form the Sykes-Picot agreement divvying up the land amongst themselves. This is where the idea of a Zionist state first began to be discussed and various Arab groups were betrayed to make it happen.
I’m not saying terrorists aren’t evil. But everything in the middle east is the result of “the west” fucking the people over there over for more than a hundred years.
Thanks, that may be what I’m thinking of. Regardless of how Israel started, what they’re doing now is Genocide.
To be fair, Jews were also massive victims of empire and colonialism. They were kicked around Europe for centuries since the Greeks and the Romans.
Now, on the fall of the Ottoman Empire all kinds of populations coalesced into nation-states (also, all while kicking out people that did not identify with the new nation - massive population exchanges at the time, millions of dead in forced marches out of a region). Most back to the heartlands of their ancestral lands - so the idea wasn’t far fetched.
Unfortunately, unlike those other populations Jews were in diaspora so long that they had kept little physical connection with that land which was now occupied mostly by Palestinians.
Fun fact: A plan was hatched to allocate a portion of Australia instead
“Shalom, cunt!”
Not really, it was started before the Holocaust, and it involved actual Nazis. See, antisemites are often quite happy with Zionism because they like the idea of an ethnostate that they can ship all the Jews off to. That’s why pre-WWII German Zionists were able to negotiate the Haavara Agreement, which allowed them to transfer their property to Palestine, and allowed 60,000 Jews to migrate there before WWII.
You need to read a book
Can we not act like this?
If someone is misinformed then you educate and correct them, not mock them. Especially when the person in question is clearly open minded and willing to learn.
You do that, I’ll do what I think is helping the most
Probably
And yet the people who run Israel are all Jewish. So it’s certainly fair to criticize them for committing atrocities like ones that that were done to their people in the past. The Israeli government, not Jews in general.
(Israel \ Non-Jewish Israelis) ⊂ Jews
There, in precise mathematical notation. Yes, that’s actually a tautology, but we all know the Arab Israelis and similar aren’t in the drivers seat of anything.
Yeah, but pretending they don’t happen to be Jewish just undercuts our credibility.
Always have been
“They” in this context clearly means “Jews”.
Can we please stop with this shit? This is why the pro-Palestine side of this conflict keeps being branded as antisemites. Because you can’t seem to help yourself but to make arguments where “Israel” and “Jews” are interchangeable terms.
They aren’t. Jews were victims of the Holocaust. Israel was not. If you can’t tell the difference, leave the activism to the people who can.
“They” in this context clearly means “the government of Israel”, which is made up of Jews. It’s not “all Jews” it’s “these specific people in power who are also Jews”. You could use this same bullshit claim to say that criticizing the US government is anti-Christian. No, it’s not.
I’m sorry, the Israeli government was a victim of genocide? When? From whom?
EDIT: Let’s try that on for size, quoting the words I’m criticizing.
Makes no fucking sense. Nobody has ever genocided Israelis.
You know that though, because you said:
Then you have made the target of your hatred quite clear. It’s Jews that you hate.
Instead of countering my argument, you are engaging in pedantry. You know exactly what I meant.
But for the pedants, I’ll rephrase my original statement:
FUCK ISRAEL RIGHT IN THE ASS WITH A 2x4.
The Israeli government, themselves descendants of survivors of one of the most horrific genocidal events in human history, have chosen to become perpetrators of genocide.
FUCK ISRAEL.
Sigh. The first “they” is the Israeli government, the second is Jews in general. The first “they” refers to who is committing atrocities, the second is referring to who has been the victim of atrocities historically. It’s either bad faith or obtuse of you to try to interpret it any other way.
I hate the people in the Israeli government who are committing genocide. They happen to be Jews, which means that you would think they’d try to be better based on the history of atrocities being committed against them.
Look, this sentence only makes sense if both “theys” are the same group of people.
It’s really not that hard to avoid blaming Jews for Israel’s war crimes.
You can either acknowledge that this is a bad argument, or you can double down on blaming Jews. What’s it going to be?
I’m gonna give you the benefit of the doubt, against my better judgement.
“The Israeli government has become the very genocidal monster that Jews were once the victims of.”
What about this sentence doesn’t make sense to you? And why do you insist on seeing antisemitism in it?
Because the statement, as you present it, is more nuanced that what I usually hear people say. It isn’t the statement I originally responded to either, it’s the rewritten version you’re demanding I respond to, only after you redefined the “theys” to something that isn’t so obvious antisementic. It’s also kinda meaningless to say “The Israeli government has become the very genocidal monster that Jews were once the victims of.” written as it is, it it only serves as an attempt to compare Israel to Nazis, which isn’t off-base, but is also better communicated than this.
My issue is with what people typically mean whey they say this. 99.9% of the time, people are saying “Jews were genocided by Nazis, and now they’re genociding Palestinians”. I understand the sentiment, and why people would jump to this “the oppressed has become the oppressor” rhetoric, but this isn’t an appropriate statement. Jews aren’t attacking Gaza and its people - Israel is.
Sure, the majority of Israel’s leadership is ethnically Jewish, but that’s not a reason to blame Jews for what Israel is doing. There are countless Jews that are not Israeli, do not work for the Israeli state, and do not support what Israel is doing. Directing blame at an entire ethnic group because of what a foreign military is doing is overtly bigoted.
My issue isn’t about you, it is about the consistent anti-Israel rhetoric that fails to separate Israel from the Jewish people. You may consider your criticisms of Israel to be logical and rational, with clarity of target, so it’s probably pretty easy for you to handwaved these things away. But Jews know when people are talking about them, and the original comment I responded to was blaming Jews for what Israel is doing to Gaza.
Just because I’m anti-Israel doesn’t mean I’m turning a blind eye to Jew-hate. Downvote me all you want, downvotes aren’t anonymous here, and Antisemites deserve to be on a list when they make clear what they stand for.
I know exactly what I said. I said Israel, as in the state of.
As a state is composed of the members of its government, I used the plural pronoun “they.”
Get off of your horse.
Okay, so what group committed genocide against Israel? If that’s what the “they” means, who was it?
Because the Holocaust ended 3 years before Israel existed, so unless the “they” is “Jews”, I wanna know what genocide you were referring to.
See my reply later in this thread.