Well to a certain degree I guess. They’re never going to be as equal as numbers can. What is even meant by men and women being “equal”? Equality of opportunity?
It’s been my experience that people who value equality don’t care about the nitty gritty of what it means, because it’s a value. An ideal. And if you hold equality as an ideal, that means it’s always something to work towards. Inqualities are triaged, but they’re all something that we should overcome in the name of fairness and egalitarianism.
Someone always brings up “equality of opportunity vs equality of outcome” when they want to disrupt and derail people who value equality by getting them to wrestle in the mud about how much equality is too much. And, to be frank, it feels like you’re trying to throw the “equality of outcome” wrench into the gears here, and I don’t believe that is ever done in good faith.
What’s the problem with equality of outcome? What does it even mean? Where does the objection come from?
Simply put, it comes from resentment. It comes from the idea that “I worked hard, so I deserve a better quality of life than someone I choose to believe worked less hard!” And that’s just a long way of saying “I believe I am more deserving than someone else”.
But why? Often this comes from people who already have a certain level of comfort in life believing that they hold more right to that comfort, safety, and happiness than someone else. Too often in this sphere, it comes from people who liked tech and did well in technical subjects in school believing that that entitles them to a higher quality of life than someone who wasn’t interested in or had no special aptitude for those subjects. But shouldn’t one of the freedoms that comes from equality being the freedom to find joy in what you want? Why should I be rewarded more lucrative Ly than you for enjoying something different?
And if I don’t enjoy it, should it really make sense for me to suffer at something I don’t enjoy for the sake of wealth? Maybe the equality of outcome is really the equal ability to experience joy, and comfort, and security no matter what we enjoy and how we invest our time? If the world has the resources to allow it, then why should one person be punished for chasing their joy while another is rewarded?
The answer usually boils down to “I made better decisions, so I should be rewarded!” which is just another way of saying “people who make mistakes should be punished!”
And that seems like bullshit. What kind of world is that? Where people aren’t safe to make mistakes (and this is ignoring the idea that someone’s passion can be considered a mistake)? Where they’re punished for trying something different? Or for not jumping on a trend? Where safety and comfort are used as crudgles to force people to do things that make them miserable?
Because that’s really what “what do you mean by equality?” is really saying.
you do have a point in the sense that if we live in a utopia, I think there is good reason to think that it shouldn’t matter what choices people make, they all get the same ‘reward’/financial outcome/etc.
You said:
If the world has the resources to allow it, then why should one person be punished for chasing their joy while another is rewarded?
Yes okay, but what if there are limited resources? Or a world that needs improvement? Isn’t it then better to incentivize people to work hard to make our world of limited resources a world of abundance? If yes, then it means to give those a higher reward at the expense of those who made “other choices”.
Are we now living in a world of limited resources / that needs improvement? If yes, then it would probably be justified to take from those who made “other choices”
Who decides what deserves more wealth and respect? People don’t make rational decisions in this regard. Most of the time the people with more power will simply decide that their area of expertise deserves the most resources and respect.
Nobody is just man or woman and nothing else. We all have a huge number of traits that all together make us individuals. From the physical like size, hair and so on to the mental, what we enjoy, what interests us and so on.
King Charles, the Rock and me are men. Solely on gender we are the same. But people would be quick to point out all the differences.
What is event meant by man and women being “equal”?
That we’re all human beings who deserve to not have our gender determine what we can and cannot do? I think that’s pretty obvious. In practice, of course, we’re not there yet. Misogyny is rampant and insidious. But the goal in my mind is for gender to just legitimately not matter at all, outside of, like, romantic and sexual relationships.
I’d ask whoever looks strongest if I had to pick one, or the group in general for volunteers if I were in the real world. I’ve met some women who could shoulder press me if they wanted to. If you were looking for someone to help you move a couch, I could try, but you’d be better off asking those women.
why don’t you give the idea some serious thought instead of weaseling your way out? To guide you more: Your only options are between a man and a woman who look equally muscular and you don’t have a lot of time to ask around. It’s noisy and you can only ask either one at a time, who do you ask? I’m OBVIOUSLY talking about those scenarios (even if rare…) where the relevant bit comes into play
If they appear to be as strong as each other, I’m asking the woman. I’m a woman - I’m more likely to be harmed by a strange man than I am a woman. It’s the safer option for me.
But regardless, you’re being insulting and argumentative. Not only is it completely uncalled for, it’s against the rules of this community. This is your warning, if you break the rules again you will be banned. You can find the community rules and lemmy’s code of conduct in the sidebar.
Okay, but, what if it’s a life or death lifting scenario, where they need to lift a gunman who is going to shoot your children? You have to save either your son, or your two daughters who are half as valuable. The fffffemale lifter is also wearing airpods and cannot hear you.
Well to a certain degree I guess. They’re never going to be as equal as numbers can. What is even meant by men and women being “equal”? Equality of opportunity?
Why do you ask?
It’s been my experience that people who value equality don’t care about the nitty gritty of what it means, because it’s a value. An ideal. And if you hold equality as an ideal, that means it’s always something to work towards. Inqualities are triaged, but they’re all something that we should overcome in the name of fairness and egalitarianism.
Someone always brings up “equality of opportunity vs equality of outcome” when they want to disrupt and derail people who value equality by getting them to wrestle in the mud about how much equality is too much. And, to be frank, it feels like you’re trying to throw the “equality of outcome” wrench into the gears here, and I don’t believe that is ever done in good faith.
What’s the problem with equality of outcome? What does it even mean? Where does the objection come from?
Simply put, it comes from resentment. It comes from the idea that “I worked hard, so I deserve a better quality of life than someone I choose to believe worked less hard!” And that’s just a long way of saying “I believe I am more deserving than someone else”.
But why? Often this comes from people who already have a certain level of comfort in life believing that they hold more right to that comfort, safety, and happiness than someone else. Too often in this sphere, it comes from people who liked tech and did well in technical subjects in school believing that that entitles them to a higher quality of life than someone who wasn’t interested in or had no special aptitude for those subjects. But shouldn’t one of the freedoms that comes from equality being the freedom to find joy in what you want? Why should I be rewarded more lucrative Ly than you for enjoying something different?
And if I don’t enjoy it, should it really make sense for me to suffer at something I don’t enjoy for the sake of wealth? Maybe the equality of outcome is really the equal ability to experience joy, and comfort, and security no matter what we enjoy and how we invest our time? If the world has the resources to allow it, then why should one person be punished for chasing their joy while another is rewarded?
The answer usually boils down to “I made better decisions, so I should be rewarded!” which is just another way of saying “people who make mistakes should be punished!”
And that seems like bullshit. What kind of world is that? Where people aren’t safe to make mistakes (and this is ignoring the idea that someone’s passion can be considered a mistake)? Where they’re punished for trying something different? Or for not jumping on a trend? Where safety and comfort are used as crudgles to force people to do things that make them miserable?
Because that’s really what “what do you mean by equality?” is really saying.
ok
but what do you mean by equality?
you do have a point in the sense that if we live in a utopia, I think there is good reason to think that it shouldn’t matter what choices people make, they all get the same ‘reward’/financial outcome/etc.
You said:
Yes okay, but what if there are limited resources? Or a world that needs improvement? Isn’t it then better to incentivize people to work hard to make our world of limited resources a world of abundance? If yes, then it means to give those a higher reward at the expense of those who made “other choices”.
Are we now living in a world of limited resources / that needs improvement? If yes, then it would probably be justified to take from those who made “other choices”
Who decides what deserves more wealth and respect? People don’t make rational decisions in this regard. Most of the time the people with more power will simply decide that their area of expertise deserves the most resources and respect.
true but generally speaking one could say he who makes abundance for us all, deserves more.
Removed by mod
And in the first place, aren’t we all different?
Nobody is just man or woman and nothing else. We all have a huge number of traits that all together make us individuals. From the physical like size, hair and so on to the mental, what we enjoy, what interests us and so on.
King Charles, the Rock and me are men. Solely on gender we are the same. But people would be quick to point out all the differences.
That we’re all human beings who deserve to not have our gender determine what we can and cannot do? I think that’s pretty obvious. In practice, of course, we’re not there yet. Misogyny is rampant and insidious. But the goal in my mind is for gender to just legitimately not matter at all, outside of, like, romantic and sexual relationships.
so if you need help lifting something heavy, do you ask a man or a woman? If you only see a group of strangers.
after you shit yourself, do you ask a man or a woman to wipe your ass? If you only see a group of strangers.
this is dumb. Either explain what you mean or don’t talk at all
Okay, I’ll explain below:
If you pooped yourself would have a male or female stranger wipe you?
they’re making fun of you for being a dumb misogynist asshole, obviously
I’d ask whoever looks strongest if I had to pick one, or the group in general for volunteers if I were in the real world. I’ve met some women who could shoulder press me if they wanted to. If you were looking for someone to help you move a couch, I could try, but you’d be better off asking those women.
Someone who looks stronger than me (not hard) and isn’t busy/has their hands full.
why don’t you give the idea some serious thought instead of weaseling your way out? To guide you more: Your only options are between a man and a woman who look equally muscular and you don’t have a lot of time to ask around. It’s noisy and you can only ask either one at a time, who do you ask? I’m OBVIOUSLY talking about those scenarios (even if rare…) where the relevant bit comes into play
If they appear to be as strong as each other, I’m asking the woman. I’m a woman - I’m more likely to be harmed by a strange man than I am a woman. It’s the safer option for me.
But regardless, you’re being insulting and argumentative. Not only is it completely uncalled for, it’s against the rules of this community. This is your warning, if you break the rules again you will be banned. You can find the community rules and lemmy’s code of conduct in the sidebar.
Okay, but, what if it’s a life or death lifting scenario, where they need to lift a gunman who is going to shoot your children? You have to save either your son, or your two daughters
who are half as valuable. The fffffemale lifter is also wearing airpods and cannot hear you.WHAT DO YOU DO??