- cross-posted to:
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- [email protected]
- [email protected]
- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
- [email protected]
- [email protected]
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I’m surprised they ever had new players stay with how toxic that game’s community is.
I tried it when it was still pretty newish, hopped onto the fucking tutorial servers where you’re playing with real people on your team, but against bots and there’s literally no stakes.
The level of vitriol I got for not immediately knowing the meta was enough to make me uninstall and just never bother with it again. I tried DOTA2 after and had the same experience, which turned me off to the entire genre.
LoL is some or the worst for sure. All gaming has gotten more toxic. I don’t enjoy any multiplayer now, there are many reasons but one of the worst is just how terrible people are.
Early 2000s people weren’t great, racist and homophobic jokes were rampant, but the saving grace was that for the most part it was ribbing. Bad taste, but everyone was there to have fun. Trolls sure, but it was so cool to hang out, meet someone from the other side of the world, and game with them all night.
Now it’s just immediate griefing. Constant attack, if you miss one shot your entire team will come down on you. If you are only there to have fun and not make a career then why are you there
The issue is that the design of the MOBA genre inherently encourages players to be toxic
Definitely. It was also massively exacerbated by the fact that there was no voice chat, surrender mechanics were extremely frustrating, there was essentially no punishment for inting, etc.
You’re not wrong that there is some baseline level of toxicity due to the genre, but I feel it was made infinitely worse by Riot’s failures in implementation.
For instance, the ability to forfeit a match immediately when one of your teammates had never connected. They literally wouldn’t even let you start a vote to forfeit until 15 minutes into the game, even if your whole team was afk. Even the other team was bored, but you all just had to go through the motions for 15-20+ minutes because of Riot’s infinite wisdom. And if you went AFK in that match, you got automatically flagged and put in leaver queue. Fuck sake I’m getting triggered all over again just explaining it.
I think we had the same experience with mobas! I distinctly remember getting flamed in that first LoL tutorial match and not even understanding why. I’ll now stay in my RPG safe space, thank you
It’s not a game you go in alone. Usually you go in with a bunch of friends to play with people. And udualyl the toxocotybis beareable when it’s 3 or 4 buddies vs 1 dumbass. Once you get some experience, you are not a newbie anymore.
How do you even keep returning players? I used to enjoy checking out League every once in a while, but it seemed like it wasn’t possible to keep up with all the changes that way. Every time I went back to it, I felt like I was learning how champions and items worked from scratch, because they kept changing. Eventually after every champ I liked to play had been reworked (some of them more than once) I just gave up.
It’s funny, I stopped playing just before the first ever rework. Before that, it was all balance changes. Little numbers tweaks here and there. Now everytime I talk to someone who still plays league it’s like literally everything has changed. Who benefits from that kind of development cycle?
Whales.
In my day, Riot got their whale milk by selling skins. How does reworking the game’s mechanics help attract whales?
It’s not for the whales, it’s for the long time players like myself who like the game to stay fresh. Big changes give me new opportunities to theory craft and try new things, so I play more when there are big changes VS when things are stale and getting boring. Might be part of the reason people have a hard time learning the game though
In my day, they added new things by introducing new items, champs, game modes, and maps. Why do they need to upend the entire game to “keep things fresh”? Doesn’t that just ruin the experience for people who like a certain thing how it is?
I mean, that’s all they really do these days too. I’ve been playing since season 2 and there are definitely ups and downs across the history of the game. These days they’ve slowed down on new champs, like 2 a year or so. They’ve maybe gone a little trigger happy with item changes, but it doesn’t bother me or my friend group too much. Like I said, gives us more opportunity to theory craft and less time for boring stale metas to set in. Game modes got boring for a while, but they’re doing better these past couple years (Arena 2v2s is one of the best modes they’ve ever released)
As far as ruining it for people who like it how it is, I don’t know anyone who fits that, but it’s definitely possible people are getting alienated by changes. But I think it’s okay alienating that small minority to keep the game alive and fresh for the vast majority
I have a feeling you didn’t play regularly. I understand your frustration, but if you do play regularly, all these changes are welcome because they keep the game fresh.
Definitely a double edged sword: if you play frequently enough, the game always feels incrementally better. If you don’t play frequently enough, you feel lost. Not great for riot to lose players for that reason
That’s fair. I imagine if you are playing every day for a long period of time, the game would get stale if it never changed.
Certainly not by trying to install kernel level malware into a fucking game.
Uninstalled that shit faster than anything and am clean since.
Yeah… imagine being a new player. Having to learn 4 abilities and how they work. For over 150 characters.
That’s 600+ abilities you need to know what they do.
Not even including passive abilities.
By the time you are able to be somewhat competitive in any given game. You’ll probably already have moved on from the game after being trashed and stomped on non stop by smurfs leveling their new accounts after being banned for toxicity
I’m in a small minority, but their ring0 anticheat isn’t helping with that.
Its not that small of a minority. Unless youre a Linux user. But even many Windows users just don’t want that crap on their system, myself included.
I have multiple thousand hours on DotA but I feel like the problems here might be the same. These games have bloated themselves to the extent that it becomes impossible for a new player to be able to pick up the game because it is near impossible to create and maintain an in game tutorial. With hundreds of heroes/champions it’s like a thousand different mechanical interactions and expecting new users to be willing to put up to that is asking for too much.
I remember trying out the beginner mode on DotA a few years ago. Good idea in theory, but in practice I made a single mistake and was blamed for the loss of the entire game. They probably weren’t wrong that I tipped the balance towards the enemy side, but it would’ve been nice to get some pointers or guidance instead of just “GG Harpy”. Made me not want to touch the game again.
That’s a bit of an unsolvable problem at this stage as well because when not enough new people pick up the game, they can’t be matched with new players. Naturally, you end up getting matched with other low skill players who are, in a good number of cases, in that skill bracket because of this behaviour.
Anybody watch LCK? I would kill to have a marginally active space for discussing professional LoL on Lemmy. But given how dead the mainstream sports communities are, it feels like an impossible goal.
Stopped playing many years ago but I’ve been a die hard fan of kt Rolster ever since the 2017 super team of Smeb/Score/Pawn/Deft/Mata. That was shortly after I revoked my fandom of North American LoL teams as a result of them being complete garbage.
But as someone with a lot of expertise when it comes to this particular game, I think this article and some of the takes in this thread are just slightly off the mark. This may get long-winded 😅
It’s absolutely true that the pace of patches, new champions, new items, etc is so fast that it becomes exhausting to catch up if you stop playing for any period. And of course, this plays right into the ballooning scale of the game, with the total burden of knowledge steadily increasing over time. But this is not an inevitability of the genre. As @[email protected] correctly observed, this development cycle is designed to extract the most money from a small number of whales.
It’s quite possible to massively reduce the rate and scale of patching, or indeed to streamline certain aspects of the game. Indeed, Riot has eliminated and streamlined numerous mechanics over the years such as old Runes/rune pages, various micromechanical techniques that have been automated, or the addition of automatic timers for buffs. However, they have typically replaced the removed mechanics with brand new, more complex mechanics.
Essentially, Riot has mismanaged their own game to extent that it’s nearly impossible for new players to get into, largely because they have been chasing quarterly profits and not considering the long term implications. Or I guess you could argue that they have managed it well, given that it’s probably the highest grossing video game of all time.
But I don’t think this is an inevitable outcome for MOBAs. I think with fighting games like Smash, thinning out the roster is much more important, because each character has exponentially more moves and matchups than LoL champions. The 5v5, semi-RTS nature of MOBAs means that having an intimate knowledge of matchups and ability ranges/timings is much less important for casuals. There is also effectively only one map that changes very rarely.
I believe that it’s possible to create a MOBA that would stand the test of time and be feasible and interesting for people to play casually or competitively for decades, and yet still be welcoming to new players. Imagine if something like that existed and fathers could teach their sons how to play the same esports game they played as kids 😂. That’d be awesome.
It’s more or less the same situation as Reddit/Lemmy. Reddit/Riot fucked up their golden geese, so there is an opportunity for someone else to iterate on their model and replace them. Unfortunately, the financial investment required to build a MOBA game like LoL is much higher than the cost of a link aggreggator like reddit. Nonetheless, I won’t stop dreaming of a community-built competitive MOBA that could attain some type of permanency. My best experiences on LoL were few and far between, but I really do believe that the MOBA formula is incredibly fun, entertaining, and can stand the test of time if done right. I ascribe nearly all of the frustrating aspects to Riot’s overriding profit incentive and incompetence. /rant over
I believe that it’s possible to create a MOBA that would stand the test of time and be feasible and interesting for people to play casually or competitively for decades, and yet still be welcoming to new players.
League of Legends was enticing and built an audience out of regularly adding new stuff to it. I can’t think of an analogue for this in any other competitive game or sport, but live service games always wane when new content slows down, because that new content was juicing the numbers. Likewise, every new champ they added, especially beyond around 100, is going to make it more daunting to start playing if you weren’t already. So unless they had a roster of a few dozen champs at most, at launch, and never changed them, I don’t see how you build one of these to last decades. I mean, people do still play Third Strike 25 years later, but that’s a tiny fraction of the player base you’re talking about, and Riot would sooner wipe LoL off the face of the earth than allow it to be playable for a population the size of Third Strike’s right now.
Yeah I hear you, but they could have been far more judicious. LoL has lasted 15 years while being horribly mismanaged, so I don’t think 30 years is really that crazy. They have continued to add like 4-5 champions every single year, plus reworks and constant, incessant, unecessary rebalancing. I think you could easily slow all of that shit down by a factor of 5 and the game would still remain fresh enough for all but the most hard-core players. And those guys should probably spend less time playing anyway.
If you started with a roster of 70, added 5 per year for the first 5 years, 3/yr for the next 5, and 2/yr for the next 20, you’d end up at 150, which is totally manageable. LoL is currently at 167.
Riot would sooner wipe LoL off the face of the earth than allow it to be playable for a population the size of Third Strike’s right now.
I get that, but that’s why I made the comparison with Lemmy. What if LoL weren’t run by a company, but by the community itself, and the priority was simply to keep the game in a fair and balanced state and maybe gradually add a few new mechanics and heroes over time. That would be possible to keep going for a long time.
The game is inherently fun for the mechanical skill, strategic and tactical thinking, and teamwork/competition. You don’t need all that fancy new shit once a month to keep people playing imo. I enjoyed that stuff very early on, but it quickly became annoying because it was like you had to constantly relearn the game every year because of all the changes. And I think Riot just kept leaning harder into that because it was the most profitable in the short term, without realizing how many people eventually stopped playing due the fact that the game they once loved became unrecognizable.
I think you’ll find that if you go to the forums for any live service game whose popularity has visibly waned, which is nearly all of them on Steam, since Steam makes those numbers public, you’ll see people attributing it to things that the developer did, balancing or otherwise, but that seems naive to me. It seems inevitable that the popularity of these things will wane over time. To end up with anything else strikes me as a stroke of luck, even if the game is a masterpiece in competitive design.
What if LoL weren’t run by a company, but by the community itself, and the priority was simply to keep the game in a fair and balanced state and maybe gradually add a few new mechanics and heroes over time. That would be possible to keep going for a long time.
We have templates for this already. Online games that predate the live service era can still be played and enjoyed in perpetuity, including the likes of Quake (this one’s even open source), StarCraft, and, once again, Third Strike. You can check the Twitch numbers for each of them, and we can actually get really good numbers for how many people are playing Third Strike at any given time, give or take a few random arcade cabinets out in the wild, via FightCade. They don’t sustain a playerbase the size of League of Legends, and I don’t think any game ever will without a drip feed of new content. Chess hasn’t had a rule change in over 100 years, to my knowledge, and despite being proven to stand up to the test of time competitively, it will never do League of Legends numbers either.
Chess hasn’t had a rule change in over 100 years, to my knowledge, and despite being proven to stand up to the test of time competitively, it will never do League of Legends numbers either.
Are you sure about that? I would assume there are many more chess players worldwide.
Most video games that have existed have followed a similar trajectory, but that doesn’t make it inevitable by any means. Competitive games are typically the ones with the longest lifespans. Some people are still playing Supreme Commander: Forged Alliance online and possibly Battle for Middle Earth 2 as well.
But these models are not profitable, so game developers don’t try to follow them. Perhaps the reason why popularity seems to inevitably decline is because the gaming industry is practicing planned obsolescence. They deliberately put older games out to pasture once the profit streams have dried up, but if the developers weren’t so focused on profit, maybe that wouldn’t always happen.
Are you sure about that? I would assume there are many more chess players worldwide.
Probably only by the most liberal definition. Chess matches aren’t watched by a crowd that could fill a stadium like soccer is, and even after a surge during the pandemic, it doesn’t pull numbers on Twitch like League of Legends does on a bad day. I’ve played chess, but I don’t, present tense, play chess, you know?
I brought up the three video games I did precisely because it’s impossible to force obsolescence or put them out to pasture. Quake being open source allows for a game that’s proven to be competitively viable and enticing to be maintained and expanded by the community the way you described, but it doesn’t stick with its audience the way any “shiny new thing” sticks. Some people are still playing these games the way some people are still playing Supreme Commander and Battle for Middle-earth, but once again, they’ll always stabilize at a number way lower than a game like League of Legends with frequent new content, regardless of balance.
I’ve played chess, but I don’t, present tense, play chess, you know?
But if someone said hey, wanna play a game of chess?, you would be able to. Partially because the rules haven’t changed since you last played. So that counts for me.
You might wanna check the numbers on League, although they haven’t published anything official in years. Viewership is down massively compared to 5-10 years ago.
You may be right, but I have a hunch that there is fresh ground out there for the adventurous game developer willing to break it. Video games are still a very new type of media and I don’t think we’ve seen all the forms that they can take. It’s like being in the silent film era and having a discussion about the potential future of pornographic films. It’s hard to know what the future has in store; never say never, as they say.
I checked the numbers on League just before that comment. They’re still at about the 100k average they’ve been since the beginning of Twitch Tracker’s history for it in 2017, with a similar bump that chess got during the pandemic. I’m all for those evergreen competitive games; I refuse to play LoL anymore, among other reasons, because it can’t ever be one of those. But I’m very confident that LoL has the numbers it does because it continually introduced new things, and that always has an expiration date.
@nanoUFO This situation was always going to happen with any character-based competitive game. Eventually, there’s too many character matchups for new players to want to learn. Nobody would want to get into a game that requires hundreds of hours of homework before they can finally start to become good at the game.
This is a big reason why sequels exist. You have to reset the roster at some point, otherwise things become bloated and impossible to balance. Smash Ultimate has +80 characters, and it’s a miracle that that game only has 5 insanely powerful characters.
I am almost certain Smash bros’s competitive, online players is a tiny sliver of its user base. The rest doesn’t care much where their favourite characters are in the current meta.
For casual to average players, almost any character is viable. Only at high level do a few characters dominate the whole game.
Nobody would want to get into a game that requires hundreds of hours of homework before they can finally start to become good at the game.
This is a huge issue I have with a lot of established online games. A lot of the advice is just “watch this video, follow this guide, use this meta build or we’re not going to play with you.” I play games to have fun learning mechanics, experimenting with builds, and organically exploring the world. I may eventually use guides to get caught up, but the game has to be fun at its core before then. At least in smash, you’re the only one who has to worry about your performance.
When I wished MOBAs would die, I didn’t expect it to be of old fucking age. Man, why do wishes always have get twisted like that?
