in torture, the pain and discomfort is the point. prison is an excellent example of torture. by contrast, I think everyone agrees that we would prefer if no pain or discomfort were part of farming animals. this is probably especially true for the people actually doing the farming and slaughtering. in this case, the pain and discomfort are only incidental. it’s not torture.
Everyone agrees? Really? So is humanity just collectively ignoring the alternatives? How is it possible that “everyone agrees” that you prefer no torture and pain, but the vast majority of people chose to engage in that practice? How can you live like that?
the question is why am I chaining them. I wouldn’t do this because I think it is immoral to chain people up, but I don’t need to invoke the spectre of torture to believe it’s wrong.
If you’re going to chain someone to the same spot for their entire life your intentions don’t mean anything. Your act of doing it is what makes it torture.
torture is a specific thing. there may be a medical reason to do it. if I cut off your foot, that might be a form of torture, but if I do it because it’s dangerous or mangled, it’s a mercy. the intent matters. incidental pain is not torture.
it’s not torture.
Making something sit in one spot in a cage for their entire life to the point where they couldn’t move even if they wanted to isn’t torture?
Do you also think solitary confinement in prison is natural?
in torture, the pain and discomfort is the point. prison is an excellent example of torture. by contrast, I think everyone agrees that we would prefer if no pain or discomfort were part of farming animals. this is probably especially true for the people actually doing the farming and slaughtering. in this case, the pain and discomfort are only incidental. it’s not torture.
Everyone agrees? Really? So is humanity just collectively ignoring the alternatives? How is it possible that “everyone agrees” that you prefer no torture and pain, but the vast majority of people chose to engage in that practice? How can you live like that?
if you know a way to raise animals for products at the current scale and price without any pain or discomfort, you should let us know.
Well, you don’t. But a good first step is scaling wayyy down. Factory farming is a response to public demand for meat.
I think this is a fiction.
In torture, the goal is typically something other than the pain in itself.
if there were no pain or discomfort, it wouldn’t be torture.
So if you chain someone up and don’t intentionally dislocate any joints, and make them sit there for 10 years like that, it’s not torture?
What is it, collateral damage?
the question is why am I chaining them. I wouldn’t do this because I think it is immoral to chain people up, but I don’t need to invoke the spectre of torture to believe it’s wrong.
If you’re going to chain someone to the same spot for their entire life your intentions don’t mean anything. Your act of doing it is what makes it torture.
torture is a specific thing. there may be a medical reason to do it. if I cut off your foot, that might be a form of torture, but if I do it because it’s dangerous or mangled, it’s a mercy. the intent matters. incidental pain is not torture.
You know exactly what this discussion is about. You talking in circles isn’t smart.
Have a good one.
I havent changed my position at all. that’s not talking in circles.