See, now you’re moving the goalposts. You made a sweeping statement that Christianity is as-is compared to the first century CE. Yet here you are breaking it down and excluding things.
Let’s just face it, you don’t mean Christianity as a whole is same as 2kyr ago. It isn’t. They held on to some facets of it, got rid of others, but kept the main themes like resurrection and the like. Heck, there are even some that suggest the resurrection story was added centuries later.
I said it was as-is in the context of your statement. Your claim was that the figure of Jesus had evolved over hundreds of years like King Arthur. I said that no, the doctrine surrounding Jesus was basically as-is. Now you’re being pedantic about it. The fact is, 99% of the things believed about Jesus nowadays was believed by first century Christians. We can use the New Testament as a source for that, as they are what our beliefs are based on. There are no early records about a Jesus existing that show him not being a divine miracle worker who rose from the dead. Unlike figures - even Christian figures such as St Patrick who had later attributions of legend like leading snakes out of Ireland, or even the Virgin Mary in the Assumption of Mary, Conceived without sin, perpetual virginity, etc. All of which are found centuries later than the original documents actually surrounding Mary, some of which could have even been written in her lifetime.
However, like Arthurian Legend, it doesn’t mean some guy like Jesus didn’t exist, or an aggregate of characters weren’t assembled to be him on story.
That’s what I said.
I used Arthur as a fellow mythology, along with a conditional “or” he could be an aggregate character.
The moment of resurrection itself is not described in any of the gospels, but all four contain passages in which Jesus is portrayed as predicting his death and resurrection, or contain allusions that “the reader will understand”. The New Testament writings do not contain any descriptions of a resurrection but rather accounts of an empty tomb.
So therefore I stand by the premise that changes have been made, and what existed in 100 is not what we have today.
You’ll have to forgive me if I bow out. I do not share your beliefs, nor am I willing to continue to argue over religious texts that are self-referencing to constitute proof.
The New Testament Writings do not contain any descriptions of a resurrection
Me when I lie on the internet
Matthew 28:2-10 NRSV
[2] And suddenly there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord, descending from heaven, came and rolled back the stone and sat on it. [3] His appearance was like lightning, and his clothing white as snow. [4] For fear of him the guards shook and became like dead men. [5] But the angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid; I know that you are looking for Jesus who was crucified. [6] He is not here; for he has been raised, as he said. Come, see the place where he lay. [7] Then go quickly and tell his disciples, ‘He has been raised from the dead, and indeed he is going ahead of you to Galilee; there you will see him.’ This is my message for you.” [8] So they left the tomb quickly with fear and great joy, and ran to tell his disciples. [9] Suddenly Jesus met them and said, “Greetings!” And they came to him, took hold of his feet, and worshiped him. [10] Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid; go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me.”
Mark 16:4-8 NRSV
[4] When they looked up, they saw that the stone, which was very large, had already been rolled back. [5] As they entered the tomb, they saw a young man, dressed in a white robe, sitting on the right side; and they were alarmed. [6] But he said to them, “Do not be alarmed; you are looking for Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He has been raised; he is not here. Look, there is the place they laid him. [7] But go, tell his disciples and Peter that he is going ahead of you to Galilee; there you will see him, just as he told you.” [8] So they went out and fled from the tomb, for terror and amazement had seized them; and they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid.
Luke 24:2-9 NRSV
[2] They found the stone rolled away from the tomb, [3] but when they went in, they did not find the body. [4] While they were perplexed about this, suddenly two men in dazzling clothes stood beside them. [5] The women were terrified and bowed their faces to the ground, but the men said to them, “Why do you look for the living among the dead? He is not here, but has risen. [6] Remember how he told you, while he was still in Galilee, [7] that the Son of Man must be handed over to sinners, and be crucified, and on the third day rise again.” [8] Then they remembered his words, [9] and returning from the tomb, they told all this to the eleven and to all the rest.
John 20:1-18 NRSV
[1] Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene came to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the tomb. [2] So she ran and went to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one whom Jesus loved, and said to them, “They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid him.” [3] Then Peter and the other disciple set out and went toward the tomb. [4] The two were running together, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first. [5] He bent down to look in and saw the linen wrappings lying there, but he did not go in. [6] Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb. He saw the linen wrappings lying there, [7] and the cloth that had been on Jesus’ head, not lying with the linen wrappings but rolled up in a place by itself. [8] Then the other disciple, who reached the tomb first, also went in, and he saw and believed; [9] for as yet they did not understand the scripture, that he must rise from the dead. [10] Then the disciples returned to their homes. [11] But Mary stood weeping outside the tomb. As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb; [12] and she saw two angels in white, sitting where the body of Jesus had been lying, one at the head and the other at the feet. [13] They said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping?” She said to them, “They have taken away my Lord, and I do not know where they have laid him.” [14] When she had said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not know that it was Jesus. [15] Jesus said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you looking for?” Supposing him to be the gardener, she said to him, “Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have laid him, and I will take him away.” [16] Jesus said to her, “Mary!” She turned and said to him in Hebrew, “Rabbouni!” (which means Teacher). [17] Jesus said to her, “Do not hold on to me, because I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ ” [18] Mary Magdalene went and announced to the disciples, “I have seen the Lord”; and she told them that he had said these things to her.
So you got it from some wiki instead of looking at the source text 🤣 fair enough if it wasn’t your mistake I guess. It just goes to show that without lies, Atheism dies.
See, now you’re moving the goalposts. You made a sweeping statement that Christianity is as-is compared to the first century CE. Yet here you are breaking it down and excluding things.
Let’s just face it, you don’t mean Christianity as a whole is same as 2kyr ago. It isn’t. They held on to some facets of it, got rid of others, but kept the main themes like resurrection and the like. Heck, there are even some that suggest the resurrection story was added centuries later.
I said it was as-is in the context of your statement. Your claim was that the figure of Jesus had evolved over hundreds of years like King Arthur. I said that no, the doctrine surrounding Jesus was basically as-is. Now you’re being pedantic about it. The fact is, 99% of the things believed about Jesus nowadays was believed by first century Christians. We can use the New Testament as a source for that, as they are what our beliefs are based on. There are no early records about a Jesus existing that show him not being a divine miracle worker who rose from the dead. Unlike figures - even Christian figures such as St Patrick who had later attributions of legend like leading snakes out of Ireland, or even the Virgin Mary in the Assumption of Mary, Conceived without sin, perpetual virginity, etc. All of which are found centuries later than the original documents actually surrounding Mary, some of which could have even been written in her lifetime.
That’s not what I said.
That’s what I said.
I used Arthur as a fellow mythology, along with a conditional “or” he could be an aggregate character.
So therefore I stand by the premise that changes have been made, and what existed in 100 is not what we have today.
You’ll have to forgive me if I bow out. I do not share your beliefs, nor am I willing to continue to argue over religious texts that are self-referencing to constitute proof.
Me when I lie on the internet
Matthew 28:2-10 NRSV
Mark 16:4-8 NRSV
Luke 24:2-9 NRSV
John 20:1-18 NRSV
“Me when I lie”?
Go talk to the wiki I got that from if you want to argue with someone else about whether something is true or not.
So you got it from some wiki instead of looking at the source text 🤣 fair enough if it wasn’t your mistake I guess. It just goes to show that without lies, Atheism dies.
I guess religion and atheism are on equal footing, then.
Every religion apart from Christianity dies without lies
Quoted for posterity.
There it is. Your true colors.