They said he has unquestionable absolute immunity for his uses of any power delegated in the constitution. That’s why in Sotomayor’s dissent she picks these three examples:
When he uses his official powers in any way, under the majority’s reasoning, he now will be insulated from criminal prosecution. Orders the Navy’s Seal Team 6 to assassinate a political rival? Immune. Organizes a military coup to hold onto power? Immune. Takes a bribe in exchange for a pardon? Immune. Immune, immune, immune
Those are all powers directly derived from article 2 of the constitution, and their use is totally unquestionable by courts according to the majority’s ruling now. This also includes an incredibly ambigous phrase “to faithfully execute the nation’s laws” which the majority was interpreting as allowing him to do so many things without any question even Barrett dissented to that part.
And it goes further, anything the president generally has the power to do but is not specifically a constitutional power, he gets presumed immunity for.
This is a victory for Trump. They gave Trump everything he asked for and more. And that’s not my opinion, that’s what Sotomayor herself said in her dissent.
I suggest you read both hers and Jackson’s dissent, this is a horrific ruling.
I agree, but 6 of the 9 justices of the supreme court don’t apparently. It’s quite disturbing. Any use of powers delegated to the president in the constitution including thing like use of the military and pardons, is beyond any question according to this ruling.
Read the ruling. They’re quite clear about the absolute immunity for any use of executive powers granted by the constitution. That includes things like being commander in chief of the military, powers of pardon, appointing and firing of officials, and more! I even linked it for you to read. Don’t have to take my word for it. And if you can’t figure out the implications of the ruling read justice Sotomayor’s and justice Jackson’s dissents.
The majority are the ones who said that any use of constitutional presidential powers creates absolute immunity. All the dissenters are doing is pointing out the obvious implications and saying why the majority is wrong to create that immunity more eloquently than I can. You are the one who is confused. Or more likely, just arguing in bad faith. But just in case,
It’s on the very first page of the majority ruling, here you go:
Under our constitutional structure of separated powers, the nature of Presidential power entitles a former President to absolute immunity from criminal prosecution for actions within his conclusive and preclusive constitutional authority.
And he is entitled to at least presumptive immunity from prosecution for all his official acts. There is no
immunity for unofficial acts
Seperately from the absolute immunity, any powers not delegated in the constitution (official acts they call it), have presumptive immunity. Uses of specifically delegated constitutional powers, like the military, have absolute immunity. If its an ability delegated to him in the constitution, the majority ruling says that cannot be questioned. They say neither by themselves or congressional laws. Only use of powers not delegated in the constitution can the court even begin to question if it was an “official act.”
The majority says something along the lines of “oh this is just a little immunity we didn’t give turmp everything he asked for.” I have no idea why they can write that with a straight face. Besides the fact that giving any criminal immunity to the president is totally antithetical to the founding principles of our country, they in fact have given him everything he asked for. Trump himself was arguing if he was impeached for something then he should be able to be criminally liable still. But now thanks to the supreme court conservative justices, for the vast majority of the scariest things a president can do, like the command the military, pardon powers, and appointing and firing of officials, he couldn’t be held criminally liable even if he was impeached. It was more than Trump asked for. They may have even managed to torpedo both of his state criminal cases.
The Supreme Court majority is just so worried that poor president’s will get harassed by prosecutors afterwards? Good! He should be afraid of breaking the law, just like everyone else. And if that can be proven in a court of law, he should go to jail, just like everyone else. The supreme court has now elevated the president above the rule of law and abdicated the responsibilities of the judiciary branch.
What do you think “immunity” means in this context?
You don’t get immunity for legal acts. The supreme court didn’t just rule that legal acts committed by a president cannot be prosecuted. That would be fucking stupid. Legal acts done by anyone can’t be prosecuted ever. That’s what it means to be “legal”. Immunity applies to illegal acts.
When he uses his official powers in any way, under the majority’s reasoning, he now will be insulated from criminal prosecution. Orders the Navy’s Seal Team 6 to assassinate a political rival? Immune. Organizes a military coup to hold onto power? Immune. Takes a bribe in exchange for a pardon? Immune. Immune, immune, immune
In all three of those cases, the question as to whether those actions are required or permitted under the law is put to a judge, and that judge is free to rule that they are not. The trial judge is free to rule that they are “unofficial” acts, and deny that immunity.
Use of the military is delegated to him under article 2, his use of that power cannot be questioned. The ruling says what you just described cannot happen. He has absolute immunity for anything he uses that power for. Appointing or firing officials? Article 2, cannot be questioned. Granting pardons? Article 2, cannot be questioned, doesn’t matter why he did it.
Only if the president is using some ability or power not specifically delegated in the constitution can a judge even began to decide if it counts as an official act. And then if that does, not quite as good as absolute immunity, but still presumptive immunity.
And it gets even worse! Anything the president did as an “official act” cannot be used against him in court as evidence. So much of the evidence in all the cases he has can no longer be used! If any of the charges survive at all in the first place given this ridiculously broad immunity ruling. This ruling is so bad it may even help him get out his state charges unexpectedly. There’s a slim chance some of the charges may live on, but the funny thing about the ruling is it gives even more criminal immunity to some the scariest things the president has the power to do.
If this ruling is terrible for Trump, why does the dissent start out by saying this gives everything Trump asked for and more?!
I’m sorry, but you’re just incorrect. Please just read the dissents from the actual constitutional scholars in the ruling though instead of my dumb internet comments trying to summarize. They explain it all much better and more thoroughly.
The first dissent starts on page 68 of the document I linked, and with the very large margins is a surprisingly quick read.
Use of the military is delegated to him under article 2, his use of that power cannot be questioned.
The military is strictly limited on what kind of operations it is allowed to perform. The commander and operators of Seal Team 6 would be prosecuted if they obeyed an unlawful order, even if it came from their Commander in Chief. The president does not have the power to order Seal Team 6 to violate the Posse Comitatus act. The President does not have the power to violate his political rival’s right to due process. A prosecutor can argue that such an egregious order falls well outside the scope of the office, and constitutes an “unofficial act”. The courts are free to rule accordingly.
The dissents are reading far more into the majority opinion than is actually there. I suggest you read the majority opinion a little more closely.
A prosecutor can argue that such an egregious order falls well outside the scope of the office, and constitutes an “unofficial act”.
Incorrect, according to this ruling, his use of the military has absolute immunity. It doesn’t matter what he’s doing with it, they can’t even question if it’s an official act or not. That only factors in when using powers not delegated in the constitution. You do point out some more absurdities in the majority’s ruling though, theoretically a court could hold troops accountable for unlawful orders but could not hold the executive accountable for giving them. Moot point though, who’s bringing the charges against the troops in this situation? President has absolute criminal immunity for hiring and firing, just fire any prosecutors whether that’s justice department or military justice if they try to do so.
The president does not have the power to order Seal Team 6 to violate the Posse Comitatus act.
Null and void, they specifically state that not only the court doesn’t have the power to question, neither does congress. The supreme court just made posse comitatus toilet paper.
The only way out for this mess is replacing the justices or a constitutional ammendment that’s says, yes we still have the rule of law for everyone, including the president.
And yes I read the whole thing. And if the majority can’t see what they have enabled they’re stupid. But I don’t think it’s stupidity, they’re smart people. That only leaves malice. Or some very different political ideals than I hold about the rule of law at least.
You’re right! Even easier. Article 2 power use again, cannot be questioned. Pre emptive pardons for everyone involved. We were all worried about the possibility of Trump self pardoning, but this court has made that possibility seem quaint in comparison to what they’ve bestowed.
They said he has unquestionable absolute immunity for his uses of any power delegated in the constitution. That’s why in Sotomayor’s dissent she picks these three examples:
Those are all powers directly derived from article 2 of the constitution, and their use is totally unquestionable by courts according to the majority’s ruling now. This also includes an incredibly ambigous phrase “to faithfully execute the nation’s laws” which the majority was interpreting as allowing him to do so many things without any question even Barrett dissented to that part.
And it goes further, anything the president generally has the power to do but is not specifically a constitutional power, he gets presumed immunity for.
This is a victory for Trump. They gave Trump everything he asked for and more. And that’s not my opinion, that’s what Sotomayor herself said in her dissent.
I suggest you read both hers and Jackson’s dissent, this is a horrific ruling.
https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/23-939_e2pg.pdf
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I agree, but 6 of the 9 justices of the supreme court don’t apparently. It’s quite disturbing. Any use of powers delegated to the president in the constitution including thing like use of the military and pardons, is beyond any question according to this ruling.
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Read the ruling. They’re quite clear about the absolute immunity for any use of executive powers granted by the constitution. That includes things like being commander in chief of the military, powers of pardon, appointing and firing of officials, and more! I even linked it for you to read. Don’t have to take my word for it. And if you can’t figure out the implications of the ruling read justice Sotomayor’s and justice Jackson’s dissents.
Oh yeah so you’ll believe the minority opinion but not the majority. Gotcha. No wonder you’re confused.
The majority are the ones who said that any use of constitutional presidential powers creates absolute immunity. All the dissenters are doing is pointing out the obvious implications and saying why the majority is wrong to create that immunity more eloquently than I can. You are the one who is confused. Or more likely, just arguing in bad faith. But just in case,
It’s on the very first page of the majority ruling, here you go:
Seperately from the absolute immunity, any powers not delegated in the constitution (official acts they call it), have presumptive immunity. Uses of specifically delegated constitutional powers, like the military, have absolute immunity. If its an ability delegated to him in the constitution, the majority ruling says that cannot be questioned. They say neither by themselves or congressional laws. Only use of powers not delegated in the constitution can the court even begin to question if it was an “official act.”
The majority says something along the lines of “oh this is just a little immunity we didn’t give turmp everything he asked for.” I have no idea why they can write that with a straight face. Besides the fact that giving any criminal immunity to the president is totally antithetical to the founding principles of our country, they in fact have given him everything he asked for. Trump himself was arguing if he was impeached for something then he should be able to be criminally liable still. But now thanks to the supreme court conservative justices, for the vast majority of the scariest things a president can do, like the command the military, pardon powers, and appointing and firing of officials, he couldn’t be held criminally liable even if he was impeached. It was more than Trump asked for. They may have even managed to torpedo both of his state criminal cases.
The Supreme Court majority is just so worried that poor president’s will get harassed by prosecutors afterwards? Good! He should be afraid of breaking the law, just like everyone else. And if that can be proven in a court of law, he should go to jail, just like everyone else. The supreme court has now elevated the president above the rule of law and abdicated the responsibilities of the judiciary branch.
What do you think “immunity” means in this context?
You don’t get immunity for legal acts. The supreme court didn’t just rule that legal acts committed by a president cannot be prosecuted. That would be fucking stupid. Legal acts done by anyone can’t be prosecuted ever. That’s what it means to be “legal”. Immunity applies to illegal acts.
In all three of those cases, the question as to whether those actions are required or permitted under the law is put to a judge, and that judge is free to rule that they are not. The trial judge is free to rule that they are “unofficial” acts, and deny that immunity.
This ruling is terrible for Trump.
Use of the military is delegated to him under article 2, his use of that power cannot be questioned. The ruling says what you just described cannot happen. He has absolute immunity for anything he uses that power for. Appointing or firing officials? Article 2, cannot be questioned. Granting pardons? Article 2, cannot be questioned, doesn’t matter why he did it.
Only if the president is using some ability or power not specifically delegated in the constitution can a judge even began to decide if it counts as an official act. And then if that does, not quite as good as absolute immunity, but still presumptive immunity.
And it gets even worse! Anything the president did as an “official act” cannot be used against him in court as evidence. So much of the evidence in all the cases he has can no longer be used! If any of the charges survive at all in the first place given this ridiculously broad immunity ruling. This ruling is so bad it may even help him get out his state charges unexpectedly. There’s a slim chance some of the charges may live on, but the funny thing about the ruling is it gives even more criminal immunity to some the scariest things the president has the power to do.
If this ruling is terrible for Trump, why does the dissent start out by saying this gives everything Trump asked for and more?!
I’m sorry, but you’re just incorrect. Please just read the dissents from the actual constitutional scholars in the ruling though instead of my dumb internet comments trying to summarize. They explain it all much better and more thoroughly.
The first dissent starts on page 68 of the document I linked, and with the very large margins is a surprisingly quick read.
The military is strictly limited on what kind of operations it is allowed to perform. The commander and operators of Seal Team 6 would be prosecuted if they obeyed an unlawful order, even if it came from their Commander in Chief. The president does not have the power to order Seal Team 6 to violate the Posse Comitatus act. The President does not have the power to violate his political rival’s right to due process. A prosecutor can argue that such an egregious order falls well outside the scope of the office, and constitutes an “unofficial act”. The courts are free to rule accordingly.
The dissents are reading far more into the majority opinion than is actually there. I suggest you read the majority opinion a little more closely.
Incorrect, according to this ruling, his use of the military has absolute immunity. It doesn’t matter what he’s doing with it, they can’t even question if it’s an official act or not. That only factors in when using powers not delegated in the constitution. You do point out some more absurdities in the majority’s ruling though, theoretically a court could hold troops accountable for unlawful orders but could not hold the executive accountable for giving them. Moot point though, who’s bringing the charges against the troops in this situation? President has absolute criminal immunity for hiring and firing, just fire any prosecutors whether that’s justice department or military justice if they try to do so.
Null and void, they specifically state that not only the court doesn’t have the power to question, neither does congress. The supreme court just made posse comitatus toilet paper.
The only way out for this mess is replacing the justices or a constitutional ammendment that’s says, yes we still have the rule of law for everyone, including the president.
And yes I read the whole thing. And if the majority can’t see what they have enabled they’re stupid. But I don’t think it’s stupidity, they’re smart people. That only leaves malice. Or some very different political ideals than I hold about the rule of law at least.
He could just preemptively/promise a pardon to all of seal team 6 / anyone in the military carrying out his orders.
You’re right! Even easier. Article 2 power use again, cannot be questioned. Pre emptive pardons for everyone involved. We were all worried about the possibility of Trump self pardoning, but this court has made that possibility seem quaint in comparison to what they’ve bestowed.