You won’t hear any argument from me on this point, I do believe the states should organize and train adults with some degree of competency
As you used it in that statement, the term “adults” is synonymous with “well regulated militia” as used in the constitution, and “people” as I have used the term.
It is because we are militia/people/adults that we can be compelled to attend the training you describe, or be otherwise drafted into service.
Squares and rectangles, you can’t generalize a subset as synonymous with its superset.
This is true, there is not a complete overlap, but I accounted for the non-squares in my last comment. My point is not that militia contains absolutely all members of “we the people”. My point is made when “equilateral rectangles” are the general rule, and “non square” is an exceptional case.
When you see a random person on the street and have no special information about them, It is unreasonable to presume they are not a member of the militia.
No I heard what you said, I don’t agree with that interpretation. No training, no Militia. A raw egg isn’t an omelet . Again, you started with your conclusion and are interpreting the words to justify it.
Alright, how about this: fail to register with selective service, and young men cannot get or renew a driver’s license or financial aid for college. They can even be charged with a crime, all for failing to follow one of the very few regulations imposed upon the militia.
How can they be punished for not fulfilling their militia duty if they are not militia?
I started by asking “who is the militia?”, nothing more. The legislature told me who they thought was the militia (every able bodied male citizen aged 17 to 45) and I asked why women weren’t included. Then I realized the definition the legislature used was not the definition used in the Constitution, and I allowed it to expand to as broad a concept as Congress would have access to: everyone.
Your interpretation of “no training, no militia” is not unreasonable as a practical matter, but we are talking about constitutional law, constitutional rights. If there are any rights attached to the concept of “militia”, liberty demands we assume the broadest reasonable interpretation; if there are any infringements attached to the militia, the narrowest definition possible.
“Well regulated militia” is not the “gotcha” that hoplophobes think it is.
young men cannot get or renew a driver’s license or financial aid for college. They can even be charged with a crime, all for failing to follow one of the very few regulations imposed upon the militia.
This interpretation is inconsistent for a couple reasons. First, selective service is for the Army, a federal institution; Militias are directed at the state level, so it’s not really appropriate to conflate selective service with a Militia. This might be a rational argument if selective service was for the National Guard.
Further, if Militia and People are synonymous as you suggest, you’re implying that everyone who isn’t registered (women, children, men over the age of 25) aren’t People.
How can they be punished for not fulfilling their militia duty if they are not militia?
Again, Army ≠ Militia. The Selective Service Act is for conscription into the standing Army, which is a constitutionally distinct entity. Additionally, selective service didn’t exist until 1917.
I started by asking “who is the militia?”, nothing more. The legislature told me who they thought was the militia (every able bodied male citizen aged 17 to 45) and I asked why women weren’t included. Then I realized the definition the legislature used was not the definition used in the Constitution, and I allowed it to expand to as broad a concept as Congress would have access to: everyone.
Yes, once again I repeat that you are deciding what conclusion you want to reach, and then selecting definitions and justifications that support your conclusions, because the established definitions don’t. This is extremely poor logical form.
Your interpretation of “no training, no militia” is not unreasonable as a practical matter, but we are talking about constitutional law, constitutional rights. If there are any rights attached to the concept of “militia”, liberty demands we assume the broadest reasonable interpretation; if there are any infringements attached to the militia, the narrowest definition possible.
This doesn’t make rational sense. The definition is what it is, and the rights and infringements thereon lay where they lay. Picking and choosing to minimize responsibilities and maximize benefits to suit your personal disposition is an abomination to legal consistency.
I defer to Johnson’s Dictionary when nitpicking definitions of words used by the founders, as it was literally the definitive authority at the time. Militia is defined as “The trainbands; the standing force of a nation”, and since ‘trainbands’ is an archaic term, I’ll include that it is defined as “The militia; the part of a community trained to martial exercise”. Eliminating that little loop, we arrive at the accepted definition of Militia at the ratification of the Constitution: the standing force of a nation; the part of a community trained to martial exercise.
‘People’ is simply defined as “A nation; these who compose a community”. The Militia is a part of that community, specifically the part which is trained to martial exercise. The Constitution underwent many revisions, poring over every word. When they meant People, they wrote People; if they wrote Militia, they damn well meant exactly “Militia”, as literally defined. Any other interpretation is willfully disingenuous.
“Well regulated militia” is not the “gotcha” that hoplophobes think it is.
It’s a prefatory clause, intended to communicate vital information. If the information included in that clause was not important to the interpretation of the text, it would have been excised during revision. No other amendment justifies itself that way, despite the fact that they all have justifications. The only honest conclusion is that the founders intended that clause to be Included for a material purpose.
Claiming that this one clause in the entire document was included for no real reason and can be safely disregarded is, again, willfully disingenuous and an abomination against our most sacred foundations.
This interpretation, is inconsistent for a couple reasons. First, selective service is for the Army, a federal institution;
There is no means other than the militia clauses to call forth a person and compel them to serve in the army. It is because they are members of the militia that they can be called forth to serve in the army. Without the militia clauses, the 13th Amendment would prohibit such an act.
While we are on the subject of armies, take a look at Article I Section 8 clauses 12, 13, and 14.
*Congress has the power to “raise” an army. They can create one.
Congress has the power to “provide” a Navy. They can create one.
Congress does not have the power to “create” a militia. The militia is presumed to exist; Congress can “call it forth”.
Further, if Militia and People are synonymous as you suggest, you’re implying that everyone who isn’t registered (women, children, men over the age of 25) aren’t People.
Nope. Addressed that long ago: Selective service is a legislative provision, and is not the “well regulated militia” referred to in the constitution. Congress has provided a means for calling forth only part of the constitutional militia. They are empowered to provide for calling forth the entirety of the militia; they have not made such a provision. The largest group that they could provide for calling forth tomorrow (“the people”) were members of the “well regulated militia” yesterday.
This doesn’t make rational sense. The definition of what it is, and the rights and infringements thereon lay where they lay. Picking and choosing to minimize responsibilities and maximize benefits to suit your personal disposition is an abomination to legal consistency.
It’s called the rule of lenity. It is a natural extension of the principles of “presumption of innocence” and “burden of proof”. When law, regulation, clauses, or other terms, conditions, or requirements can be rationally interpreted multiple ways, the applicable interpretation is the one that most favors the person claimed to be in violation.
Claiming that this one clause in the entire document was included for no real reason and can be safely disregarded
I made no such claim. Quite the contrary, the clause was included for a very important reason.
The only honest conclusion is that the founders intended that clause to be Included for a material purpose.
Agreed. And for that, I’ll take you back to Article I, Section 8, clauses 12, 13, and 14. Congress is empowered to create armies and a navy. The Second Amendment tells us that this created military is not the entity charged with providing security of a free state. That security is provided not by the government or any other government creation, but by the militia; the people.
I will note that the following clause is the operative one: the right is not granted to the states or the militia, or to those members of the militia who have been called forth. The right is specifically guaranteed to the people. It makes little sense to guarantee the right to the people if the people aren’t the militia.
I think I’m about done here, so I’ll try to sum it up. Basically, you sound like this:
“A well trained driver, being essential to the safe operation of a vehicle, the right of squirrels to attend drivers ed may not be infringed”.
Again, your line of reasoning ignores the “trained” aspect of a Militia, and implies that everyone who isn’t subject to conscription isn’t People.
If you want to suggest that the state-based National Guard should train all adults in “military exercise”, including the responsible operation of firearms, you’ll hear nothing but support from me. I believe that everyone, leading into adulthood, should receive training roughly in line with the concept of JROTC. I believe this, or comparable training, should engage nicely with the 2nd Amendment.
I do not believe that every unhinged yahoo having access to firearms is desirable. Driver’s Ed is actually a great parallel. If you cannot demonstrate that you are capable of responsibly operating a vehicle, you are not permitted to do so, at least not in public spaces. If you cannot demonstrate that you are capable of responsibly wielding a firearm, you should not be permitted to do so, at least not in public spaces.
If your objection, as tends to be the case, is “Then the government will feel too comfortable limiting the check popular firearm ownership places on despotism!”, this isn’t the 18th century. The standing Army can easily overwhelm any grassroots opposition.
If your objection is something else not addressed, I will be happy to respectfully consider and engage with it.
Again, your line of reasoning ignores the “trained” aspect of a Militia,
10USC246 is narrower than the constitutional meaning. It is the legislative definition of “militia”, and defines two classes of that militia. Your “trained” qualification accepts only one of those two classes, not both. Your definition conflicts with even the legislative definition, let alone the broader constitutional meaning.
You invented the “trained” qualification. Pulled it straight out of thin air, with no constitutional, legal, contemporary, or even semantic basis. I didn’t ignore the “trained” part. I flat out rejected it.
Now, if you will accept a minor change from “trained” to “trainable”, your definition expands to include both classes of the militia as defined in 10USC246, and becomes reasonably close to the constitutional meanings of both “militia” and “the people”.
If you want to suggest that the state-based National Guard should train all adults in “military exercise”, including the responsible operation of firearms, you’ll hear nothing but support from me.
As you have used the term, “adults” is synonymous with the constitutional meaning of “militia”. Any time you read the word “militia” in the constitution, you can substitute the meaning of the word “adults” as you have used that term.
To provide for calling forth the militiaadults to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militiaadults, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militiaadults according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
…
A [W]ell regulated MilitiaAdults, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Driver’s Ed is actually a great parallel.
Agreed, but the sine qua non of my driver’s Ed amendment was “squirrels”. In guaranteeing the right to “squirrels” instead of those who will be providing the safe operation of a vehicle, the amendment I provided is nonsensical. The driver’s Ed requirement only makes sense when the right is afforded to the same entity that will be exercising it.
You invented the “trained” qualification. Pulled it straight out of thin air
I pulled it straight out of the dictionary, where the word “Militia” is defined.
Now, if you will accept a minor change from “trained” to “trainable”, your definition expands to include both classes of the militia as defined in 10USC246, and becomes reasonably close to the constitutional meanings of both “militia” and “the people”.
You’re pulling this straight out of thin air, so I flat out reject it.
This is going nowhere. If the words were synonymous, they wouldn’t have bothered to use the word Militia. Full stop. I’m not going to continue to entertain your fantasies of what the drafters really meant, inventing your own definitions of words that have literal written definitions.
I pulled it straight out of the dictionary, where the word “Militia” is defined.
And I demonstrated, repeatedly, how that definition is flawed, and does not reflect how the word is used in either the constitution or legislation. Your definition specifically excludes certain individuals that the law (10 USC 246) specifically includes. You have provided no argument as to why 10 USC 246 - an act of Congress - should be rejected, and replaced by the opinion of Mr. Johnson, a private individual.
While you may have other routes forward, the only options I can see to further your argument are to adopt a definition that is not fundamentally incompatible with 10 USC 246, or you can demonstrate that this part of 10 USC is unconstitutional, and incompatible with the constitutional meaning.
Frankly, your best option here is to concede the point.
As you used it in that statement, the term “adults” is synonymous with “well regulated militia” as used in the constitution, and “people” as I have used the term.
It is because we are militia/people/adults that we can be compelled to attend the training you describe, or be otherwise drafted into service.
This is true, there is not a complete overlap, but I accounted for the non-squares in my last comment. My point is not that militia contains absolutely all members of “we the people”. My point is made when “equilateral rectangles” are the general rule, and “non square” is an exceptional case.
When you see a random person on the street and have no special information about them, It is unreasonable to presume they are not a member of the militia.
No I heard what you said, I don’t agree with that interpretation. No training, no Militia. A raw egg isn’t an omelet . Again, you started with your conclusion and are interpreting the words to justify it.
Alright, how about this: fail to register with selective service, and young men cannot get or renew a driver’s license or financial aid for college. They can even be charged with a crime, all for failing to follow one of the very few regulations imposed upon the militia.
How can they be punished for not fulfilling their militia duty if they are not militia?
I started by asking “who is the militia?”, nothing more. The legislature told me who they thought was the militia (every able bodied male citizen aged 17 to 45) and I asked why women weren’t included. Then I realized the definition the legislature used was not the definition used in the Constitution, and I allowed it to expand to as broad a concept as Congress would have access to: everyone.
Your interpretation of “no training, no militia” is not unreasonable as a practical matter, but we are talking about constitutional law, constitutional rights. If there are any rights attached to the concept of “militia”, liberty demands we assume the broadest reasonable interpretation; if there are any infringements attached to the militia, the narrowest definition possible.
“Well regulated militia” is not the “gotcha” that hoplophobes think it is.
This interpretation is inconsistent for a couple reasons. First, selective service is for the Army, a federal institution; Militias are directed at the state level, so it’s not really appropriate to conflate selective service with a Militia. This might be a rational argument if selective service was for the National Guard.
Further, if Militia and People are synonymous as you suggest, you’re implying that everyone who isn’t registered (women, children, men over the age of 25) aren’t People.
Again, Army ≠ Militia. The Selective Service Act is for conscription into the standing Army, which is a constitutionally distinct entity. Additionally, selective service didn’t exist until 1917.
Yes, once again I repeat that you are deciding what conclusion you want to reach, and then selecting definitions and justifications that support your conclusions, because the established definitions don’t. This is extremely poor logical form.
This doesn’t make rational sense. The definition is what it is, and the rights and infringements thereon lay where they lay. Picking and choosing to minimize responsibilities and maximize benefits to suit your personal disposition is an abomination to legal consistency.
I defer to Johnson’s Dictionary when nitpicking definitions of words used by the founders, as it was literally the definitive authority at the time. Militia is defined as “The trainbands; the standing force of a nation”, and since ‘trainbands’ is an archaic term, I’ll include that it is defined as “The militia; the part of a community trained to martial exercise”. Eliminating that little loop, we arrive at the accepted definition of Militia at the ratification of the Constitution: the standing force of a nation; the part of a community trained to martial exercise.
‘People’ is simply defined as “A nation; these who compose a community”. The Militia is a part of that community, specifically the part which is trained to martial exercise. The Constitution underwent many revisions, poring over every word. When they meant People, they wrote People; if they wrote Militia, they damn well meant exactly “Militia”, as literally defined. Any other interpretation is willfully disingenuous.
It’s a prefatory clause, intended to communicate vital information. If the information included in that clause was not important to the interpretation of the text, it would have been excised during revision. No other amendment justifies itself that way, despite the fact that they all have justifications. The only honest conclusion is that the founders intended that clause to be Included for a material purpose.
Claiming that this one clause in the entire document was included for no real reason and can be safely disregarded is, again, willfully disingenuous and an abomination against our most sacred foundations.
There is no means other than the militia clauses to call forth a person and compel them to serve in the army. It is because they are members of the militia that they can be called forth to serve in the army. Without the militia clauses, the 13th Amendment would prohibit such an act.
While we are on the subject of armies, take a look at Article I Section 8 clauses 12, 13, and 14.
*Congress has the power to “raise” an army. They can create one.
Congress has the power to “provide” a Navy. They can create one.
Congress does not have the power to “create” a militia. The militia is presumed to exist; Congress can “call it forth”.
Nope. Addressed that long ago: Selective service is a legislative provision, and is not the “well regulated militia” referred to in the constitution. Congress has provided a means for calling forth only part of the constitutional militia. They are empowered to provide for calling forth the entirety of the militia; they have not made such a provision. The largest group that they could provide for calling forth tomorrow (“the people”) were members of the “well regulated militia” yesterday.
It’s called the rule of lenity. It is a natural extension of the principles of “presumption of innocence” and “burden of proof”. When law, regulation, clauses, or other terms, conditions, or requirements can be rationally interpreted multiple ways, the applicable interpretation is the one that most favors the person claimed to be in violation.
I made no such claim. Quite the contrary, the clause was included for a very important reason.
Agreed. And for that, I’ll take you back to Article I, Section 8, clauses 12, 13, and 14. Congress is empowered to create armies and a navy. The Second Amendment tells us that this created military is not the entity charged with providing security of a free state. That security is provided not by the government or any other government creation, but by the militia; the people.
I will note that the following clause is the operative one: the right is not granted to the states or the militia, or to those members of the militia who have been called forth. The right is specifically guaranteed to the people. It makes little sense to guarantee the right to the people if the people aren’t the militia.
I think I’m about done here, so I’ll try to sum it up. Basically, you sound like this:
Again, your line of reasoning ignores the “trained” aspect of a Militia, and implies that everyone who isn’t subject to conscription isn’t People.
If you want to suggest that the state-based National Guard should train all adults in “military exercise”, including the responsible operation of firearms, you’ll hear nothing but support from me. I believe that everyone, leading into adulthood, should receive training roughly in line with the concept of JROTC. I believe this, or comparable training, should engage nicely with the 2nd Amendment.
I do not believe that every unhinged yahoo having access to firearms is desirable. Driver’s Ed is actually a great parallel. If you cannot demonstrate that you are capable of responsibly operating a vehicle, you are not permitted to do so, at least not in public spaces. If you cannot demonstrate that you are capable of responsibly wielding a firearm, you should not be permitted to do so, at least not in public spaces.
If your objection, as tends to be the case, is “Then the government will feel too comfortable limiting the check popular firearm ownership places on despotism!”, this isn’t the 18th century. The standing Army can easily overwhelm any grassroots opposition.
If your objection is something else not addressed, I will be happy to respectfully consider and engage with it.
10USC246 is narrower than the constitutional meaning. It is the legislative definition of “militia”, and defines two classes of that militia. Your “trained” qualification accepts only one of those two classes, not both. Your definition conflicts with even the legislative definition, let alone the broader constitutional meaning.
You invented the “trained” qualification. Pulled it straight out of thin air, with no constitutional, legal, contemporary, or even semantic basis. I didn’t ignore the “trained” part. I flat out rejected it.
Now, if you will accept a minor change from “trained” to “trainable”, your definition expands to include both classes of the militia as defined in 10USC246, and becomes reasonably close to the constitutional meanings of both “militia” and “the people”.
As you have used the term, “adults” is synonymous with the constitutional meaning of “militia”. Any time you read the word “militia” in the constitution, you can substitute the meaning of the word “adults” as you have used that term.
…
Agreed, but the sine qua non of my driver’s Ed amendment was “squirrels”. In guaranteeing the right to “squirrels” instead of those who will be providing the safe operation of a vehicle, the amendment I provided is nonsensical. The driver’s Ed requirement only makes sense when the right is afforded to the same entity that will be exercising it.
I pulled it straight out of the dictionary, where the word “Militia” is defined.
You’re pulling this straight out of thin air, so I flat out reject it.
This is going nowhere. If the words were synonymous, they wouldn’t have bothered to use the word Militia. Full stop. I’m not going to continue to entertain your fantasies of what the drafters really meant, inventing your own definitions of words that have literal written definitions.
And I demonstrated, repeatedly, how that definition is flawed, and does not reflect how the word is used in either the constitution or legislation. Your definition specifically excludes certain individuals that the law (10 USC 246) specifically includes. You have provided no argument as to why 10 USC 246 - an act of Congress - should be rejected, and replaced by the opinion of Mr. Johnson, a private individual.
While you may have other routes forward, the only options I can see to further your argument are to adopt a definition that is not fundamentally incompatible with 10 USC 246, or you can demonstrate that this part of 10 USC is unconstitutional, and incompatible with the constitutional meaning.
Frankly, your best option here is to concede the point.