Attorneys for Trump say Whitmer's directive "undermines the integrity of elections by increasing the opportunity for individuals to register to vote even though they are ineligible to do so."
Hi, I have a BiL in the Army (≈10yrs) who is an extremely confused libertarian who loves Trump and would rather crazy people be allowed to freely have guns than ensure his 5yo survives elementary school.
This is a genuine question, but do you have any tips for communicating with him? Maybe help him at least give some real thought to some of his positions?
Vet here, also former libertarian, current father.
People smell bullshit, so ask genuine questions. If you have an agenda it wont work.
Ask about what kind of role he sees for government, and ask about situations you find troubling and what he things the solution is.
Ask about specific people you may know who are too underprivileged, young, old, infirm to be self sufficient and bootstrap themselves.
Generally give real thought to your opinions and ask him about his. You really can’t change people by wanting to do it, you have to want to understand them first and then enter into dialogue.
Good advice. Thanks! I will try reframing some of my questions a little better.
Honestly, it will be tough with him. He’s incredibly naive and not terribly introspective, but if I can find those points of agreement, perhaps he’ll be a little less defensive on the outset. Doesn’t help that my sister and the rest of the family are all liberal and leftward, so he’s an island.
The Trump-loving libertarians are a weird batch. Typically the trumpanzees I deal with are GOP, and my strategy is to actually talk up the LP in an attempt to use Chase Oliver as more benign trash can to drop would-be Trump votes into.
For actual libertarians who are already planning on voting Oliver, I point out that a fascist victory would be fatally damaging to every party except the fascists - 3rds are fucked right along with everyone else. Their best strategy is to nudge the current system into a model more conducive to a 3rd party victory, specifically via ranked choice voting so people can feel safe voting for a 3rd without worrying about the spoiler effect. To do that, they need to vote blue to keep the fascists out of power, as a vote for more time to refine their party of preference and preserve a political model that could lead to that party’s victory.
Trump LPers are harder to speak to, to the point of being a lost cause in most cases, but I can understand wanting to give a little extra to help out a family member. Start digging into policy questions - less who he wants to win, and more what he wants to accomplish. Assess those goals, and consider if someone other than Trump would be better to achieve them.
This debate technique is called “steelmanning” and requires putting yourself in the other side’s shoes, and building their side up in a way that’s compatible with yours, vs the usual talking points nowadays, which are usually just strawman bullshit that will never get anything done.
Good ideas! I’ll keep some of those in mind. He’s not stupid, just incredibly naive, and it doesn’t help that he lives in the big shadow of his special forces older brother and thinks (maybe subconsciously) he has to prove himself equal.
Because of his naivete, he listens to what the right wing news orgs say as gospel, possibly because he has a weak epistemic foundation. If I can manage to push through some of that bullshit, it might give him some space to form his own opinions.
I don’t really want to change him, per se, but it worries me that he’s so thoughtless; if I can help him learn how to put a little more thought into his choices and actions and see that life doesn’t exist in black and white terms, I’ll call that a success.
I don’t have any specific advice, but generally when trying to convince people of things it’s important to remember that belief is largely social. Facts don’t matter so much as group identity. We are all vulnerable to this. If they see you in the moment as being in an out-group, you’re extremely unlikely to convince them of anything. If you can focus on shared group membership, like “we both want to see our kids grow up healthy” or whatever, that can work.
Like, if you try to convince a conservative to recycle via “it’s good for the environment” that’s going to ping as outgroup nonsense. If you sell it as “only america can turn trash into useful stuff”, you’ll probably have better luck.
Veteran here. Donald Trump fucking hates us.
If you want to ‘support the troops’, vote blue.
Anyone who votes Republican hates us.
Hi, I have a BiL in the Army (≈10yrs) who is an extremely confused libertarian who loves Trump and would rather crazy people be allowed to freely have guns than ensure his 5yo survives elementary school.
This is a genuine question, but do you have any tips for communicating with him? Maybe help him at least give some real thought to some of his positions?
Vet here, also former libertarian, current father.
People smell bullshit, so ask genuine questions. If you have an agenda it wont work.
Ask about what kind of role he sees for government, and ask about situations you find troubling and what he things the solution is.
Ask about specific people you may know who are too underprivileged, young, old, infirm to be self sufficient and bootstrap themselves.
Generally give real thought to your opinions and ask him about his. You really can’t change people by wanting to do it, you have to want to understand them first and then enter into dialogue.
Good advice. Thanks! I will try reframing some of my questions a little better.
Honestly, it will be tough with him. He’s incredibly naive and not terribly introspective, but if I can find those points of agreement, perhaps he’ll be a little less defensive on the outset. Doesn’t help that my sister and the rest of the family are all liberal and leftward, so he’s an island.
The Trump-loving libertarians are a weird batch. Typically the trumpanzees I deal with are GOP, and my strategy is to actually talk up the LP in an attempt to use Chase Oliver as more benign trash can to drop would-be Trump votes into.
For actual libertarians who are already planning on voting Oliver, I point out that a fascist victory would be fatally damaging to every party except the fascists - 3rds are fucked right along with everyone else. Their best strategy is to nudge the current system into a model more conducive to a 3rd party victory, specifically via ranked choice voting so people can feel safe voting for a 3rd without worrying about the spoiler effect. To do that, they need to vote blue to keep the fascists out of power, as a vote for more time to refine their party of preference and preserve a political model that could lead to that party’s victory.
Trump LPers are harder to speak to, to the point of being a lost cause in most cases, but I can understand wanting to give a little extra to help out a family member. Start digging into policy questions - less who he wants to win, and more what he wants to accomplish. Assess those goals, and consider if someone other than Trump would be better to achieve them.
This debate technique is called “steelmanning” and requires putting yourself in the other side’s shoes, and building their side up in a way that’s compatible with yours, vs the usual talking points nowadays, which are usually just strawman bullshit that will never get anything done.
Good luck!
Good ideas! I’ll keep some of those in mind. He’s not stupid, just incredibly naive, and it doesn’t help that he lives in the big shadow of his special forces older brother and thinks (maybe subconsciously) he has to prove himself equal.
Because of his naivete, he listens to what the right wing news orgs say as gospel, possibly because he has a weak epistemic foundation. If I can manage to push through some of that bullshit, it might give him some space to form his own opinions.
I don’t really want to change him, per se, but it worries me that he’s so thoughtless; if I can help him learn how to put a little more thought into his choices and actions and see that life doesn’t exist in black and white terms, I’ll call that a success.
I don’t have any specific advice, but generally when trying to convince people of things it’s important to remember that belief is largely social. Facts don’t matter so much as group identity. We are all vulnerable to this. If they see you in the moment as being in an out-group, you’re extremely unlikely to convince them of anything. If you can focus on shared group membership, like “we both want to see our kids grow up healthy” or whatever, that can work.
Like, if you try to convince a conservative to recycle via “it’s good for the environment” that’s going to ping as outgroup nonsense. If you sell it as “only america can turn trash into useful stuff”, you’ll probably have better luck.
Sounds like something someone who did get captured would say.