Since old posts are no longer accessible, I will be posting the preface of Davies and Wheatcroft’s The Years of Hunger, a scholarly work by mainstream historians, in the comments. The full work is available on Sci-Hub, but it isn’t really about debunking the nazi’s holodomor narrative. It covers the Soviet famine of the 1930’s, the last in a long series of famines in that part of the world. The preface is the only part that is specifically dedicated to debunking, and the explanations for that are in the text of the preface. I found this work in an old post on here while debate-broing on Discord with a bunch of European liberals utterly convinced that Stalin had personally eaten all the grain with his giant spoon. Maybe this can help you when liberals try to label you a genocide denialist.
:soviet-chad:
You must log in or register to comment.
I’m pretty sure the common historical consensus even among academic historians is that it is not a genocide.
Yes, that’s what I was hoping this could help demonstrate. Even the old anti-Soviet historian Conquest doesn’t call it a genocide.
How many Westerners died during the Great Depression? Based on what I can tell from the sum of western scholarship, the answer is: zero! In fact, things were so great people un-died. Everyone just went to the soup kitchen and got free food and it was all fine. Best decade of all time.
So, does anybody know the real number? There were literally millions of people who lost their homes. I’m supposed to believe that, uh, only 20 of them died?
The frustrating part about researching this is that dying of preventable malnutrition isn’t regarded as dying because of the depression. Most literature I’ve seen on the topic is mortality rates actually dropped in the USA between 1929 and 1939 except regarding suicides. Life expectancy between 1920 and 1940 actually rose by 9 years among Americans.
Which to be fair, is probably because that’s when everyone started getting vaccinated against tuberculosis. The vaccine was invented in 1921. It can’t be overstated how many people died of TB, something like 80% of people in North America used to be infected with it, you had a 5 to 10% chance of developing active symptoms, and you had an 80% chance of dying if your TB went active. The vaccine basically eradicated tuberculosis from North America and now hardly anyone gets it. Used to be a top 5 cause of death.
That’s part of why it’s difficult to gauge these numbers. It’s also difficult because the majority of people impacted by the great depression were poor and rural, and many of the victims were very young children. The USA didn’t give much of a shit about formal census records of rural people until kinda recently. Birth certificates weren’t issued until 1902, and weren’t made federally standard until 1946. My great-grandmother born in 1896 didn’t have a birth certificate and sometimes she’d brag about it.
I’ve also read an interesting theory about why life expectancy actually rises during big American recessions. Less work typically means less strenuous labor, fewer industrial accidents, less alcohol consumption and smoking, and more hours of sleep per night. Also means fewer cars on the road. America is such a stupid fucking country that economic recessions are actually good for public health?
It would be great if someone made a comprehensive list of other crises analyzed through the same methodology that gives the upper estimates for the great Chinese famine.
420% (690,000,000) of Americans died.
Anyone see that review from the academic on Anne Applebaum’s book? He just completely dismantled it
