IANAL. This is what they want you to think, “just do this and it’ll be better for you”. It might be a short term hassle waiting for the drug dog, or being arrested while they conduct their investigation. But long term it’s the court that matters. And the court will throw out anything obtained illegally or the cops do illegally.
Cops are not there to help you, they just want to find someone to pin a crime on. The only one that will help you is your lawyer. Stfu. Don’t talk to the police.
This. You have rights, but the police will lie, cheat, and steal their way into getting whatever they want, especially when what they want is for you to waive your rights.
When stopped by the police (in America), you say “I invoke my fifth amendment right to not answer questions and I don’t consent to any searches and seizures. Am I being detained or am I free to go?” That question starts a clock for what is a reasonable amount of time to detain you for their investigation because you’ve made it clear that you’d like to leave as soon as you’re legally allowed to.
As for any kind of force, just stay silent and unthreatening. They’re gonna do what they’re gonna do, and anything you do can be used as rationalization for escalation, which they really seem to fucking love. Be polite when you do choose to speak. Obey lawful commands and let them arrest you if that’s what they’re gonna do. You don’t fight armed thugs in the street, you fight them in court. File complaints and sue when they violate your rights and cause undue harm. Swinging at them or shouting in their face is how you get shot. Let their ego win the moment and then administratively destroy their career and life later on.
I’m also not a lawyer, but this is what any half decent lawyer would tell you to do. Just shut the fuck up (but invoke your right to shut the fuck up or your silence can actually be used against you) and be as passive as possible so your lawyer has a slam dunk case getting your charges dropped and/or suing the everloving fuck out of them, hopefully nullifying their qualified immunity in the process. Nothing you do or say to the police can help you, but it sure as shit will be used against you. Even things you think are innocuous can corroborate that you’re who they’re looking for, so just shut the fuck up.
I hate advice like this because you just say empty terms like “obey lawful commands” after saying to not do anything. The question is how do we do this practically. Cops can lie. They can just say whatever is a lawful command. This is why this sort of advice needs to be more specific.
A good example, presenting your driver’s license for traffic stops. That’s usually a law, is it not? But you say to not consent to searches or seizures. The whole reason people ask for specific practical advice is because they don’t wanna get fucked over by the cops but also don’t wanna get fucked over for unintentionally pulling sovereign citizen like bullshit.
The litmus test for whether something is a lawful order is to ask what will happen if you refuse. If the penalty for refusal is your arrest, say that you would prefer not to but will comply under threat of arrest. If it actually wasn’t a lawful order but you complied to avoid arrest, you’ll learn from a lawyer and get to sue over that.
As somebody else noted, driving is a privilege, not a right; if you’re pulled over for a traffic offense, you’re obligated to hand over your license and other related documents as requested depending on the state, probably registration and proof of insurance. If you don’t, then in many states it’s assumed that you were driving without being licensed to do so, and you’re probably going to jail.
On the flip side, if the cop asks to search your vehicle, you can tell him no. Don’t stop him from doing it anyway, just reiterate that you don’t consent to it and fight in court. There are some situations (like you’re under arrest and your car is being inventoried and impounded) in which they don’t need your consent to get in your car. Probable cause also gets them access to your car without your consent.
If you’re asked to do a field sobriety test, just refuse. Same for a breathalyzer. They’ll probably take you in and have you use a lab machine at the station, but that’s preferable to their bullshit games if you know you’re not doing anything wrong. Make quantitative science be the only evidence. Don’t drink and drive in the first place and you’ll be fine on that front.
If you are operating a motor vehicle, you are required to hold a license to operate that vehicle. Ergo, if you are operating the vehicle, the police can ask for proof of your licensure to operate that vehicle, and you are reauired to produce it. That is not covered under search and seizure.
To add to this spending some time in custody is inconvenient, but losing your rights being convicted of something you didn’t even do is more inconvenient. You think you know what to say until you say the wrong thing and start digging a hole.
Courts have ruled that the police have absolutely no duty to protect and serve you. That shit is a slogan. The reality is that they exist to protect capital and serve capitalists. Cops are class traitors, punishing anybody who steals or threatens value of capital. Some cops do some good, but that isn’t and never was the real intent.
I’m 99% sure that you’re kidding, but a shitload of people actually think like that. Decades of copaganda in TV and movies weren’t for nothing, and now social media is full of it. The 80s was saturated with loose cannon cops who get results and it convinced people that sometimes it’s okay to violate rights. Now it’s cops doing tiktok dances or flipping water bottles to convince people that hey, they’re regular people just like me, and well, golly gee, I’m not a fascist so how can I possibly believe that they’re fascists?
Have one involuntary interaction with a cop and your view will change. The cops primarily target brown and/or poor people, so it’s no wonder that the vast majority of thin blue line dipshits are financially comfortable honkies who’ve never had the cops target them.
Sidenote: I’ve always chuckled at the people who have both a thin blue line bumper sticker and Gadsden flag bumper stick/license plate. Basically a billboard that says “tread on those ones, officers” but they’re always the same people claiming “I don’t have a racist bone in my body!” Okay, but only because bones can’t be racist; it’s your brain that’s racist.
i absolutely am. I’m also just jaded at this point and don’t have the patience to put into words what you said. You’ve been hitting the nail on the head this whole thread.
Humans are top dog because of two things, sweat and communication.
We’re nothing without communicating, and you’re doing a killer job at communicating these issues. Keep being you, homie.
Thanks, much appreciated! I just hope that some of what I say gets through to at least one person and teaches them something or helps them in some way. It’s all for nothing if I’m just telling people who already know all of this.
It’s tough to hold onto hope regarding these things, but it’s worth it.
First, in some jurisdictions, failure to identify is an arrestable offense. Full name, date of birth, relevant cards/papers.
Second, if you need to reach for something, say something so they don’t think you’re about to pull a weapon on them. Officer safety is always a concern in the land of handing out guns like candy.
Third, explicitly state that you are exercising your fifth amendment rights. Otherwise you might run into an “I want a lawyer, dawg” situation.
Keep in mind that the cops don’t have to provide you with their reasonable suspicion in order to demand ID. It’s not until court that they have to provide their reasonable suspicion. So they have plenty of time to come up with justification after the fact.
Also, on the Fifth Amendment I thought I had read somewhere about a case where a man simply remained silent and never once invoked his right and it didn’t end well for him. I cannot remember the details, but for some reason I thought that you still had to invoke the fifth even if you have not yet answered any questions. I’ll have to look back into this later and post back if I find the story.
They can in a few states. Delaware, for instance, where the law provides them two hours even without having to clear the bar of reasonable suspicion. This is of couse blatantly unconstitutional, but it’s still a state law.
IANAL. This is what they want you to think, “just do this and it’ll be better for you”. It might be a short term hassle waiting for the drug dog, or being arrested while they conduct their investigation. But long term it’s the court that matters. And the court will throw out anything obtained illegally or the cops do illegally.
Cops are not there to help you, they just want to find someone to pin a crime on. The only one that will help you is your lawyer. Stfu. Don’t talk to the police.
This. You have rights, but the police will lie, cheat, and steal their way into getting whatever they want, especially when what they want is for you to waive your rights.
When stopped by the police (in America), you say “I invoke my fifth amendment right to not answer questions and I don’t consent to any searches and seizures. Am I being detained or am I free to go?” That question starts a clock for what is a reasonable amount of time to detain you for their investigation because you’ve made it clear that you’d like to leave as soon as you’re legally allowed to.
As for any kind of force, just stay silent and unthreatening. They’re gonna do what they’re gonna do, and anything you do can be used as rationalization for escalation, which they really seem to fucking love. Be polite when you do choose to speak. Obey lawful commands and let them arrest you if that’s what they’re gonna do. You don’t fight armed thugs in the street, you fight them in court. File complaints and sue when they violate your rights and cause undue harm. Swinging at them or shouting in their face is how you get shot. Let their ego win the moment and then administratively destroy their career and life later on.
I’m also not a lawyer, but this is what any half decent lawyer would tell you to do. Just shut the fuck up (but invoke your right to shut the fuck up or your silence can actually be used against you) and be as passive as possible so your lawyer has a slam dunk case getting your charges dropped and/or suing the everloving fuck out of them, hopefully nullifying their qualified immunity in the process. Nothing you do or say to the police can help you, but it sure as shit will be used against you. Even things you think are innocuous can corroborate that you’re who they’re looking for, so just shut the fuck up.
I hate advice like this because you just say empty terms like “obey lawful commands” after saying to not do anything. The question is how do we do this practically. Cops can lie. They can just say whatever is a lawful command. This is why this sort of advice needs to be more specific.
A good example, presenting your driver’s license for traffic stops. That’s usually a law, is it not? But you say to not consent to searches or seizures. The whole reason people ask for specific practical advice is because they don’t wanna get fucked over by the cops but also don’t wanna get fucked over for unintentionally pulling sovereign citizen like bullshit.
The litmus test for whether something is a lawful order is to ask what will happen if you refuse. If the penalty for refusal is your arrest, say that you would prefer not to but will comply under threat of arrest. If it actually wasn’t a lawful order but you complied to avoid arrest, you’ll learn from a lawyer and get to sue over that.
As somebody else noted, driving is a privilege, not a right; if you’re pulled over for a traffic offense, you’re obligated to hand over your license and other related documents as requested depending on the state, probably registration and proof of insurance. If you don’t, then in many states it’s assumed that you were driving without being licensed to do so, and you’re probably going to jail.
On the flip side, if the cop asks to search your vehicle, you can tell him no. Don’t stop him from doing it anyway, just reiterate that you don’t consent to it and fight in court. There are some situations (like you’re under arrest and your car is being inventoried and impounded) in which they don’t need your consent to get in your car. Probable cause also gets them access to your car without your consent.
If you’re asked to do a field sobriety test, just refuse. Same for a breathalyzer. They’ll probably take you in and have you use a lab machine at the station, but that’s preferable to their bullshit games if you know you’re not doing anything wrong. Make quantitative science be the only evidence. Don’t drink and drive in the first place and you’ll be fine on that front.
If you are operating a motor vehicle, you are required to hold a license to operate that vehicle. Ergo, if you are operating the vehicle, the police can ask for proof of your licensure to operate that vehicle, and you are reauired to produce it. That is not covered under search and seizure.
Then people giving this sort of practical advice should explicitly say that lest someone get arrested for failure to present a license or whatever.
To add to this spending some time in custody is inconvenient, but losing your rights being convicted of something you didn’t even do is more inconvenient. You think you know what to say until you say the wrong thing and start digging a hole.
But sir, this doesn’t sound like protect and serve at all!
Courts have ruled that the police have absolutely no duty to protect and serve you. That shit is a slogan. The reality is that they exist to protect capital and serve capitalists. Cops are class traitors, punishing anybody who steals or threatens value of capital. Some cops do some good, but that isn’t and never was the real intent.
I have seen a video of police playing basketball with the community, problem solved?
I’m 99% sure that you’re kidding, but a shitload of people actually think like that. Decades of copaganda in TV and movies weren’t for nothing, and now social media is full of it. The 80s was saturated with loose cannon cops who get results and it convinced people that sometimes it’s okay to violate rights. Now it’s cops doing tiktok dances or flipping water bottles to convince people that hey, they’re regular people just like me, and well, golly gee, I’m not a fascist so how can I possibly believe that they’re fascists?
Have one involuntary interaction with a cop and your view will change. The cops primarily target brown and/or poor people, so it’s no wonder that the vast majority of thin blue line dipshits are financially comfortable honkies who’ve never had the cops target them.
Sidenote: I’ve always chuckled at the people who have both a thin blue line bumper sticker and Gadsden flag bumper stick/license plate. Basically a billboard that says “tread on those ones, officers” but they’re always the same people claiming “I don’t have a racist bone in my body!” Okay, but only because bones can’t be racist; it’s your brain that’s racist.
i absolutely am. I’m also just jaded at this point and don’t have the patience to put into words what you said. You’ve been hitting the nail on the head this whole thread.
Humans are top dog because of two things, sweat and communication.
We’re nothing without communicating, and you’re doing a killer job at communicating these issues. Keep being you, homie.
Thanks, much appreciated! I just hope that some of what I say gets through to at least one person and teaches them something or helps them in some way. It’s all for nothing if I’m just telling people who already know all of this.
It’s tough to hold onto hope regarding these things, but it’s worth it.
Important addition: don’t just shut the fuck up.
First, in some jurisdictions, failure to identify is an arrestable offense. Full name, date of birth, relevant cards/papers.
Second, if you need to reach for something, say something so they don’t think you’re about to pull a weapon on them. Officer safety is always a concern in the land of handing out guns like candy.
Third, explicitly state that you are exercising your fifth amendment rights. Otherwise you might run into an “I want a lawyer, dawg” situation.
Not something I expected to look up today Context
what is wrong with this world, wow.
There’s nowhere in the US that is true without reasonable, articulable suspicion (Terry v Ohio)
You really don’t need to do that unless you’ve already started answering questions, but it is good practice.
Keep in mind that the cops don’t have to provide you with their reasonable suspicion in order to demand ID. It’s not until court that they have to provide their reasonable suspicion. So they have plenty of time to come up with justification after the fact.
Also, on the Fifth Amendment I thought I had read somewhere about a case where a man simply remained silent and never once invoked his right and it didn’t end well for him. I cannot remember the details, but for some reason I thought that you still had to invoke the fifth even if you have not yet answered any questions. I’ll have to look back into this later and post back if I find the story.
Sure, if they have any.
Yeah the footnote from that case was that he started answering questions and then clammed up later. For some reason that doesn’t work.
FYI thats illegal (US vs. Rodriguez)
Detained*
They can’t detain you in the US for the purpose of conducting an investigation
…what? That’s the only reason they detain you…
They can in a few states. Delaware, for instance, where the law provides them two hours even without having to clear the bar of reasonable suspicion. This is of couse blatantly unconstitutional, but it’s still a state law.
Thank you!