Yup. Patriarchy did them dirty. Society told them they had to be strong, stoic, and without emotion. And when that butted up against the realities of being a human we didn’t have any community to lead them towards living a good and healthy life.
You can fault the Right for a lot of things but they got there first on this one. They have a story for why things suck and they’re pounding the drum on it relentlessly. It doesn’t matter that this story is full of holes when the alternative is not compelling.
Patriarchy did em dirty, but feminism also left them behind. It’s not just patriarchal society that forces men to be strong and stoic, it’s also self-professed feminists, especially women. Feminists say men should be more in touch with their emotions, but when they do so women have no interest in them. That’s one of the realities of life you mentioned.
That’s still patriarchy, my guy. They’ve been raised to be complicit in a system that doesn’t benefit them, and they’re perpetuating it because they don’t like how it feels to step outside of it.
I disagree that it’s fair to call that patriarchy, but that’s beside the point. The failure of feminists to take any action against it or even to sound like they care is what I was getting at. That is by definition not patriarchy, it’s the indifference of feminism.
Feminism may not be directly attacking men, but it’s also not helping men except as an occasional side effect of helping women. Men have no acceptable paradigm to help them navigate society.
Any attempt at “Men’s theory” or some such gets simultaneously attacked by feminists and misogynists and quickly gets subsumed into one of those two camps.
The expectations the feminists have, are a part of the patriarchy, is what I’m guessing they’re trying to say, so it’s ultimately still the fault of broader patriarchy and it’s standards. I guess what you’re effectively saying is that Feminists are affected by patriarchy and it’s standards too I guess, which is obvious given they’re human and most humans aren’t perfect.
Edit Addendum: I also think why it’s hard sometimes for some feminists to acknowledge the problems men face, under the standards that the social system and hierarchy that patriarchy sets and is, is that men often play such a big role in the preservation and continuation of patriarchy, that the idea of even talking about or blaming some women(the gender which has faced the biggest brunt of the abuse from patriarchy) for also upholding the system of patriarchy, gets hard. It feels almost as if you were victim blaming or punching down, even though such aspects of patriarchy(that is the idea of women’s role in upholding the continuation of it) must be addressed.
See? Dismissive, refusal to acknowledge systemic issues, rugged individualism. That’s holdovers from patriarchy and feminists should reject that thought process.
When women have a problem, it is society’s fault and we should fix it. When men have a problem, it’s their own fault and they individually should fix it. That’s not fair, and the fact that no one in the feminist sphere seems to give a shit leaves young men deciding to turn to misogynists for moral support.
Red pill types will say, “we see you. This is a problem. You’re not crazy.” That’s very powerful when there’s no alternative.
We’ve talked about your singular love for genocide multiple times in the past. In the context of your hatred for feminism and your sympathy for incels, you truly are the voice of centrism.
We’ve also talked about how the politics mods apparently won’t let me defend myself against you even when you follow me to another sub just to pile on me with unrelated…things to say.
HIGHLY UNSPECIFIED THINGS WHICH I AM NOT COMMENTING ON, MODS.
Except to say that it has nothing to do with the discussion at hand, so please talk about something relevant or leave.
We’ve also talked about how the politics mods apparently won’t let me defend myself against you
Your defense includes mocking genocide victims and screaming “russian shill” at anyone who doesn’t agree with your total and unwavering support for genocide for the sheer love of it.
Your ideas regarding support for genocide are right-wing. Just like your sympathy for incels and your rejection of feminism. Your support for right wing ideology and policy is consistent.
Except to say that it has nothing to do with the discussion at hand, so please talk about something relevant or leave.
I explained how the two are related. If you don’t want to interact with me, don’t.
Yup. Patriarchy did them dirty. Society told them they had to be strong, stoic, and without emotion. And when that butted up against the realities of being a human we didn’t have any community to lead them towards living a good and healthy life.
You can fault the Right for a lot of things but they got there first on this one. They have a story for why things suck and they’re pounding the drum on it relentlessly. It doesn’t matter that this story is full of holes when the alternative is not compelling.
Yup. The propaganda machine moved quick when they realized this population could be manipulated into action outside of message boards.
Patriarchy did em dirty, but feminism also left them behind. It’s not just patriarchal society that forces men to be strong and stoic, it’s also self-professed feminists, especially women. Feminists say men should be more in touch with their emotions, but when they do so women have no interest in them. That’s one of the realities of life you mentioned.
Every single woman I know wants a guy in touch with their emotions. And those who found them, married them.
Tell your friends to stop trying to date under 25 year olds. We get over that shit at about this age.
Cool, good for you. That’s not the norm. At any age.
That’s still patriarchy, my guy. They’ve been raised to be complicit in a system that doesn’t benefit them, and they’re perpetuating it because they don’t like how it feels to step outside of it.
I disagree that it’s fair to call that patriarchy, but that’s beside the point. The failure of feminists to take any action against it or even to sound like they care is what I was getting at. That is by definition not patriarchy, it’s the indifference of feminism.
Feminism may not be directly attacking men, but it’s also not helping men except as an occasional side effect of helping women. Men have no acceptable paradigm to help them navigate society.
Any attempt at “Men’s theory” or some such gets simultaneously attacked by feminists and misogynists and quickly gets subsumed into one of those two camps.
Bro, you’re almost there…
Get me over the finish line then.
He/she already tried.
All I see is “everything bad is patriarchy, everything good is feminism” and a steadfast avoidance of the specific issue I brought up.
The expectations the feminists have, are a part of the patriarchy, is what I’m guessing they’re trying to say, so it’s ultimately still the fault of broader patriarchy and it’s standards. I guess what you’re effectively saying is that Feminists are affected by patriarchy and it’s standards too I guess, which is obvious given they’re human and most humans aren’t perfect.
Edit Addendum: I also think why it’s hard sometimes for some feminists to acknowledge the problems men face, under the standards that the social system and hierarchy that patriarchy sets and is, is that men often play such a big role in the preservation and continuation of patriarchy, that the idea of even talking about or blaming some women(the gender which has faced the biggest brunt of the abuse from patriarchy) for also upholding the system of patriarchy, gets hard. It feels almost as if you were victim blaming or punching down, even though such aspects of patriarchy(that is the idea of women’s role in upholding the continuation of it) must be addressed.
Personally, I find my experience to be much the opposite. But, I’m also in my late thirties so, experiences may differ.
You need to hang out with better women, my man.
See? Dismissive, refusal to acknowledge systemic issues, rugged individualism. That’s holdovers from patriarchy and feminists should reject that thought process.
When women have a problem, it is society’s fault and we should fix it. When men have a problem, it’s their own fault and they individually should fix it. That’s not fair, and the fact that no one in the feminist sphere seems to give a shit leaves young men deciding to turn to misogynists for moral support.
Red pill types will say, “we see you. This is a problem. You’re not crazy.” That’s very powerful when there’s no alternative.
You have a lot more sympathy for right-wing incels than you do for people who don’t support genocide.
Removed by mod
We’ve talked about your singular love for genocide multiple times in the past. In the context of your hatred for feminism and your sympathy for incels, you truly are the voice of centrism.
We’ve also talked about how the politics mods apparently won’t let me defend myself against you even when you follow me to another sub just to pile on me with unrelated…things to say.
HIGHLY UNSPECIFIED THINGS WHICH I AM NOT COMMENTING ON, MODS.
Except to say that it has nothing to do with the discussion at hand, so please talk about something relevant or leave.
Your defense includes mocking genocide victims and screaming “russian shill” at anyone who doesn’t agree with your total and unwavering support for genocide for the sheer love of it.
Your ideas regarding support for genocide are right-wing. Just like your sympathy for incels and your rejection of feminism. Your support for right wing ideology and policy is consistent.
I explained how the two are related. If you don’t want to interact with me, don’t.