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WASHINGTON, Nov 17 (Reuters) - President Joe Biden’s administration will allow Ukraine to use U.S.-provided weapons to strike deep into Russian territory, three sources familiar with the matter said, in a significant change to Washington’s policy in the Ukraine-Russia conflict.
Ukraine plans to conduct its first long-range attacks in the coming days, the sources said, without revealing details due to operational security concerns.
The move by the United States two months before President-elect Donald Trump takes office on Jan. 20 follows months of requests by Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy to allow Ukraine’s military to use U.S. weapons to hit Russian military targets far from its border.
The change follows Russia’s deployment of North Korean ground troops to supplement its own forces, a development that has caused alarm in Washington and Kyiv.
The first deep strikes are likely to be carried out using ATACMS rockets, which have a range of up to 190 miles (306 km), according to the sources.
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Quick! Before we’re out of power! Start WW3!!
Bad news mate. WW3 already started a while ago. The world is essentially in a proxy war against Russia.
“The world”:
World War III: 2
World War IV
2 war 2 furious
If you include the global south (which obviously you should), most of the world sides with Russia. I’d agree with you that unless things really take a turn towards deescalation, which is laughably unlikely, history will look back at this time as WWIII having already begun. But it’s a lot more complicated than just a proxy war against Russia. It’s a proxy war the Western Imperialists via NATO but under the hegemonic control of the US in particular, is waging against the rising challengers of that hegemony. And primary among those is China, which is why we have the constant and unrelenting sinophobia and anti-China propaganda. It’s just that Russia has just been the first and boldest to actually use military force against the encroachment of western imperialist ambitions, but Iran is being forced into taking action now too. Also Hezbollah and Anserallah of course, but I mean among those that are fully recognized as state actors.
But no, if this does shape up to truly be WWIII, then the line is not between Russia and the world. The lines are between Western Imperialists and Multipolarists.
Most of world sides with Russia
LOL, LMAO even.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Resolution_ES-11/1I went over this last month https://lemmy.ml/post/21682024/14466154
Sure, but that vote hasn’t actually done anything, and countries continue to trade with Russia. And the Global South countries haven’t curtailed their relations with Russia one whit. In fact some are building even deeper ties with Russia. They’re building an alternative system to SWIFT, they’re trading in each others’ currencies to avoid the dollar, and they’re making plans for some kind of BANCOR-like currency. The BRICS summit is happening right now, hosted by Russia.
Not only that, but Global North countries are skirting their own sanctions to trade with Russia on the sly.
Sure, but that vote hasn’t actually done anything, and countries continue to trade with Russia. And the Global South countries haven’t curtailed their relations with Russia one whit.
It’s almost like nations are motivated by self interest, and not some over-arching political polarization…
They’re building an alternative system to SWIFT, they’re trading in each others’ currencies to avoid the dollar
The majority of countries utilizing CIPS isn’t because they’re trying to create a multipolar geopolitical future. It’s because it’s simply a good idea to diversify your reserve currency, especially if your currency is unstable. In all likelihood if the yuan is able to show long periods of stability, the global South will be operating within SWIFT and CIPS.
The BANCOR idea is just wishful thinking, no one is migrating back to some kind of gold standard anytime soon.
It’s because it’s simply a good idea to diversify your reserve currency, especially if your currency is unstable.
SWIFT already handles a diversity of currencies including Renminbi, so that’s not what CIPS is about. Everyone knows what it’s about: an alternative to the imperial core’s transaction system.
The BANCOR idea is just wishful thinking, no one is migrating back to some kind of gold standard anytime soon.
Implying that BANCOR is anything like a gold standard only shows that you don’t have even a Wikipedia-level understanding of BANCOR.
SWIFT already handles a diversity of currencies including Renminbi](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1189498/share-of-global-payments-by-currency/), so that’s not what CIPS is about.
Swift handles customer-initiated and institutional payments but excludes trade. Foreign currency reserves are mainly for trading between countries.
an alternative to the imperial core’s transaction system.
World systems theory is an abstract concept, that doesn’t account for an anti imperialist movement. Just take it from Immanuel Wallerstein, the person who created it.
“There are today no socialist systems in the world-economy any more than there are feudal systems because there is only one world system. It is a world-economy and it is by definition capitalist in form”
By the theory you are utilizing, China is not an alternative to “the imperial core” it’s trying to take the belt.
Implying that BANCOR is anything like a gold standard only shows that you don’t have even a Wikipedia-level understanding of BANCOR.
Lol, BANCOR was named after French for Bank Gold. It is a standardized monetary system for trade based on gold.
So then the global north also supports Russia? Of course not.
You’ve only proven that nobody has strong principles at all, here.
You’ve only proven that nobody has strong principles at all, here.
By saying “only,” you’re implying that these facts don’t matter, when they clearly do matter. This is the real, material world, not the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Facts on the ground don’t care about your principals.
Or yours, mate.
That’s the whole problem with trying to break down geopolitics into set polarized factions. It makes annotating history a bit easier, but it completely forgoes any nuance.
I think a lot of people on Lemmy do it for emotional reasons, too. They can’t handle a grey-on-grey world, they need it to be black and white.
Yeah, the global south actually hates each other.
a little outdated, but stillIf you include the global south […], most of the world sides with Russia.
I don’t know if the global south really sides with anyone so much as watching from the sidelines. Not honoring sanctions isn’t the same as actively fighting.
It’s a proxy war the Western Imperialists via NATO but under the hegemonic control of the US in particular, is waging against the rising challengers of that hegemony.
i.e. Eastern Imperialists - let’s call them by what they are. This isn’t some noble quest to liberate countries from US control. It’s a maneuver to secure more power in the space before the red line of nuclear deterrence.
This isn’t freedom vs. imperialism, it’s just imperialism. The People’s Republic China has always been its own hegemony. Russia lost much of its sphere of influence during the collapse of the USSR, but it has made a solid effort to reclaim it since, e.g. with Belarus, Chechenya, Georgia and now Ukraine.
Neither the US “interventions” in the Middle East nor Israel’s “Operation Swords of Iron” against Palestine nor Russian “special operations” nor (PR)China’s claim to Taiwan (ROC) nor all the other power grabs I won’t bother listing (or don’t even know about) are anything but imperialist ambitions. There are no saints among the leaders in this global standoff.
But ultimately, it’s the people that pay the price in all of these conflicts. Human suffering, oppression, exploitation transcends all borders. We may have different leaders, different cultures, different experiences of life, but we’re united in the fact that we both will be the victims of this.
There needs to be a word for the cultivated delusion shared by the terminally online.
Well, at least we know where the Democrats’ priorities are.
Foreign policy: Escalation of global war.
Domestic policy: thoughts and prayersI’ve said this before on this issue, but why is Biden still president and allowed to make these descions? The world finally forced to realize that his brain is pudding but they just let him stay president and make descions that could lead to war with the Russian Federation. Its completely depraved
He’s just a shambling undead rubber stamp at this point, I’d reckon
If this is true, this is an act of absolute insanity on the part of Biden admin. This would be an act of war from Russian perspective. Russians repeatedly stated that these weapons can only be operated by NATO personnel, and the use of these weapons would mean direct attack by NATO on Russia. Furthermore, since tomahawks can carry a nuclear pay load, the launches of these missiles will be viewed as a nuclear attack. Russians aren’t gonna wait and see whether a nuclear capable missile actually had a nuke payload or not before they respond.
Furthermore, since tomahawks can carry a nuclear pay load, the launches of these missiles will be viewed as a nuclear attack.
What are you talking about? When did US delicer tomahawks?
At least get your facts straight lol
Tomahawks was the ones discussed recently, however ATACMS can also carry nukes. So, not sure what facts you think aren’t straight lol.
Oh please. We’ve crossed every red line Putin has and nothing has happened. Nothing will happen here, “Russians said”, give me a break.
The only previous red line Russia actually outlined was Ukraine joining NATO, and when that line was crossed the war started. All these other “red lines” were made up by western propagandists and don’t actually come from Russia.
Ukraine joined nato?
Ukraine had NATO personnel and weapons in it since 2014, and NATO countries declared that Ukraine would get a formal invitation. That’s what led to the war as Stoltenberg has now publicly acknowledged.
Reporter: [REDACTED]
Reason: Tanky spewing tankie garbage.Either reality has a well-known tankie bias or Stoltenberg is a Putin puppet.
I love just how mad these lost redditors get when they’re confronted with the real world
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Amazing counterpoint. Do feel free to take your valuable time away from licking Washington urinals to link to Russian statements about red lines that have been crossed.
You first
I’m not the one making idiotic claims at odds with reality. You said Russian red lines have been crossed, it’s on you to link to official Russian statements outlining the red lines you claim have been crossed.
Excuse me, but when did Ukraine join or at least tried to join NATO? This war started in February of 2014, by the way.
The civil war in Ukraine started in 2014 after a violent coup sponsored by the west. Meanwhile, you can stop lying because Stoltenberg already let the cat out of the bag. NATO was in Ukraine since 2014
The other thing I will say is that the war didn’t start in February last year. The war started in 2014. And since 2014, NATO Allies have provided support to Ukraine, with training, with equipment, so the Ukrainian Armed Forces were much stronger in 2022, than they were in 2020, and 2014. And of course, that made a huge difference when President Putin decided to attack Ukraine.
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_211698.htm
and the war started because NATO insisted on expanding into Ukraine
He wanted us to sign that promise, never to enlarge NATO. He wanted us to remove our military infrastructure in all Allies that have joined NATO since 1997, meaning half of NATO, all the Central and Eastern Europe, we should remove NATO from that part of our Alliance, introducing some kind of B, or second class membership. We rejected that. So he went to war to prevent NATO, more NATO, close to his borders. He has got the exact opposite.
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm
time to update your script and get some new talking points
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why’d you delete that clown, it was pretty funny
Oh you mean after Russia invaded Crimea? And even if NATO was “in Ukraine” like you say, that’s no reason to go to war. Russia has a nuclear deterrent. It doesn’t need a buffer state. This isn’t the 1890s.
Countries have a right to self determination. So even if Ukraine was looking to join NATO, which it wasn’t, that is not a valid reason to invade your sovereign neighbor. The number one driver of NATO expansion is Russian aggression.
Russia has a nuclear deterrent. It doesn’t need a buffer state. This isn’t the 1890s.
A nuclear tipped missile can hit Moscow from Ukraine in under 5 minutes clown. If you think Russia would ever allow that, you’re even dumber than I thought. We also know that the US would never allow anything like this either, hence why the Cuban missile crisis happened.
Countries have a right to self determination.
Self determination is a funny way to describe having your democratically elected government overthrown in a violent western backed coup.
The number one driver of NATO expansion is Russian aggression.
LMFAO
Underwhelming and utterly dissapointing. First of all, that was a question of mine and not a statement that would imply a lie. Second of all, you’re full of crap. Ukraine was, is, and will be an independent and sovereign state that can choose what to do with it’s own future, on it’s own; if the ukrainians wants to join UE or NATO, so be it. Besides an agreement that never existed on paper and Stoltenberg’s „cat“, there aren’t any substantial facts that would help your „narrow point of view“ and the stupid propaganda that it’s trying to spread: Ukraine had changed it’s constitution that would define it’s political orientation towards UE and NATO 5 years after Russia invaded it’s territories (in 2019/in late February of 2014), or there hadn’t been any official court/investigation, not even russian I believe, that would confirm/state that whatever happened in Ukraine was a „civil war“. Also, didn’t Russia try to join NATO in the early 00’s? Why make an enemy of it now, nothing much has changed since then.
Should’ve added mic drops after „time to update your script and get some new talking points“, smh…
🤡
Anything else? Gotchu.
Oh wow they already did exactly this, fuck. I told you dawg, I warned you about stairs
I wonder how long it will take you to regret this after the electrical infrastructure attacks and foreign military involvement/weapons trading from Russia escalate again.
Man you’re cucked
You blew an account for this?
tell that to ukrainians 😐
three sources familiar with the matter
Anonymous sources. On the one hand, this is weak tea, but on the other, I wouldn’t put it past the Biden administration at all.
Reuters and NYT are reporting it. Those outlets get their talking points straight from the white house. There is little reason to doubt this.
Things were going way too quietly since the election. This is probably the first step towards starting the major conflict
The craziest thing of our time is that right-wing bigots claim to end the war fast with peace talks, while so-called “progressives” are going to prolong their proxy war as long as there is at least one Ukrainian still alive.
“claim” is the key word in that sentence.
You’re 100% correct here. My observation is based solely on Trump’s rhetoric and i also have heavy doubts that he will stop the war and bring peace to war-torn area. Anyway, if he really tries and succeeds, it would be twice more embarrassing for his predecessors, as it would mean that they could have done the same, but instead preferred to have tens of thousands Ukrainians killed and dozens of Ukrainian cities razed to the ground.
Thats how i read it too, no worries.
I’d be shocked but who the hell knows at this point
End the war fast by giving up land, and the people on that land. If you know anything about history Ukrainians under Russian rule is a completely unacceptable outcome to anyone but complete psychopaths.
The peace proposal is for largely Russian speaking/ethnic regions of former Ukraine to stay Russian after their recent liberation.
Spoken like someone who clearly has zero knowledge of actual history. Especially considering a large part of the reason why the coup government in Ukraine began their campaign of ethnically cleansing the eastern population of their own country was because the people living there more strongly identified with Russia, wanted to be able to keep speaking Russian without persecution, and eventually pleaded with Russia to intervene on their behalf, which Russia fortunately did. But anyone who actually understands the history of the region is a “psychopath.” lol
the people living there more strongly identified with Russia, wanted to be able to keep speaking Russian without persecution, and eventually pleaded with Russia to intervene on their behalf, which Russia fortunately did
this is the first time I hear this story. the previous story was “cleaning out nazis” or something like that. it seems goalposts have grown wheels
Nope, this was reality (not “the story”) all along. Considering that it’s known nazis who were running the ethnic cleansing campaign, it’s pretty clear that you can’t have one “goalpost” without the other. The fact that this is the first time you’ve heard this and think it’s moving of goalposts really speaks to your utter ignorance on the topic. But I realize most westerners are completely ignorant on the topic sadly, seeing as the “pUtiN BIG MEANIE RuZzIa is EBIL dictatorship! Poor smol bean Ukraine!” narrative is the only thing that’s allowed through the propaganda filter there.
Learning a second thing isn’t some kind of subterfuge wth
this is not “learning some second thing”, but learning that the deal was altered
What deal? What are you talking about?
it was an attempt to refer to the phrase “I’ve altered the deal, pray I don’t alter it further”
Edit: did you downvote before you confirmed the image is historically accurate or after you confirmed the image is historically accurate?
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Can you explain which part is “Russian Propaganda?” The Donetsk and Luhansk People’s Republics are factually breakaway regions, which is the part you disagree with as “Propaganda?”
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There was plenty of organic separatism in much of Eastern Ukraine after Maidan. The support they received from Russia doesn’t invalidate that fact.
Widespread support? Is The Washington Post Russian Propaganda? You keep digging further and further denying reality. Yes, of course Russia was going to support the pro-Russian breakaway regions, that can only benefit them, that doesn’t mean the breakaway regions weren’t pro-Russian since even before Russia’s direct involvement.
Go ahead, keep accusing outlets like the Washington Post as Russian Propaganda and continue denying material reality.
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Was about the time
Imagine being this excited about moving the world closer to a nuclear holocaust. The west is a death cult.
Let’s see how you feel about this when, like after the Kerch bridge bombing, Russia resumes attacking electrical infrastructure. You had a little grace period there you know. Well, you don’t know anything actually.
Actually, leading with the electrical attacks is the wrong way to remind you how insane you are, since no amount of damage to Ukraine will cause you to flinch. You seem like the type who would only flinch at a strategic nuclear exchange. You probably haven’t noticed that Russia has promised to apply more pressure in the Middle East/West Asia region against US forces. You cannot just take potshots at them from a safe distance, US forces are deployed in a global occupation!
Oh boy, I’ve heard this one. Gloves are taken off, eyebrows are being raised, amirite? xD
I guess you don’t keep up with the missile attacks as much as the Ukrainians do!
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You can pretend to know what is going on, but I know all you have is mocking individual soldiers being maimed and killed. I am nothing like you. I do not even enjoy watching power go out for the Ukrainians. They have all been deceived. Anyways, say goodbye.
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Do something about it
I have no skin in the game except rhetorically. All I have to do about it is be right!
It’s only for four months. Putin doesn’t mind how many Russians will die until Trump gets in and tells Ukraine to surrender his buddy.
If Putin doesn’t care how many Ukrainians die, why is he even averse to hitting their rail lines and electrical infrastructure? They clearly save these attacks for retaliation when negotiations fall through yet again and the bellicose US statements get out of hand yet again.
The whole mystification of Iran and Russia’s clear strategy of “fuck off so we can stabilize and develop” that inevitably results in risks to our own stability is too funny. Western orientalism is strong in 2024 as it was in 2001.
Russia doesn’t benefit from destabilized hostile states on its border. What about that is so hard for liberals to understand? Putin and the oligarchs literally wanted to loot their country and sell shit to the west and you idiots have driven them to China. I should thank you, but you didn’t have any say in the matter.
Just wanna point out that in this initial reply to the comment tree, you did the exact same thing I just called you out on:
Misrepresenting (or to not assume malice, misREADING) another comment to then spin your entire narrative around that error.
They said:Putin doesn’t mind how many Russians will die
You base your retort on:
If Putin doesn’t care how many Ukrainians die
“this already shows you are terrible at reading. How am I supposed to expect you to treat anything else I show you seriously when you cannot even read your own material?”
You cannot be serious, this is a distinction without a difference. I can’t believe you’ve managed to find a way to fence sit between your own position and mine. Yes, to add to your inability to read, you seemingly intend to exhaust my energy by arguing about meaningless nonsense. You have the attitude of someone who does not value their time.
Thats a lot of words that all don’t say “my bad i misread that”. Try that for once.
It’s called paraphrasing. It means literally the same thing. 🤣 You are fucking desperate.
Ukrainians are NOT Russians. It doesn’t mean the same thing.
Define paraphrasing :D
Dude you don’t even know how to gish gallop properly. You’re just being annoying.
Ah so putin is the good guy whos checks notes liberating the ukraine and totally reasonable in his target choices?
Why exactly are you so convinced Russian leadership wants to massacre Ukraine and have a wasteland on the border? Ukraine was a vital trading partner for Russia prior to the western coup. Why do you think that the US and its allies fund a proxy war on Ukrainian territory? Out of the goodness of their hearts? They have been privatizing state assets in Ukraine, speculating on them, taking advantage of the spike in European requirement for US natural gas to replace Russia, and making huge military industrial purchases to replace what Russia destroys.
I’m sure Russia will settle for a slowly steamrolled Ukraine as a second option if the terror attacks on Russian office buildings etcetera continue, they might not even stop at western Ukraine, it could go on for years. They have been willing at many points to freeze the conflict so that they can go on making some money with Ukraine. Like I said it took them ten years to come to the aid of Donbas while civilians were being bombed there (Ukrainian leadership openly bragged about making the eastern Ukrainians’ children stay in bomb shelters rather than school). The west chose the drawn out destruction of cities, the destruction of a dam for no good reason.
surely you have a lot of irrefutable sources for your claims.
It’s crazy how many people here are touting the widely disclaimed coup or genocide.
Like surely there’s a lot of publicly accessible, independent data on all of that, right?
Surely there’s a very good reason why Crimea was invaded in a cloak-and-dagger operation by unmarked soldiers while russia officially demented any accusations it’s their troops? Surely.It’s 2024 and you are deepthroating the White House narrative. You trust the people who invaded Iraq because they said Al-Qaeda was there to tell you who “the bad guy” is.
I will show you plenty of sources, including actual video of Ukrainian forces torturing and killing civilians that has been verified independently. But first I want a source for your claim that Russia is indiscriminately bombing civilians. I will show you how easy it is to verify that your sources are not independent, funded by western finance capital, and undermined by statements from think tanks which cater to higher brow audiences on “your side” aka the ruling class that knows you don’t know how to research and most of their population is functionally illiterate.
I am well aware of what the headlines say. You don’t know your head from your ass without the Associated Press or the BBC weighing in on the subject.
White House narrative
Muricacentric much?
But first I want a source for your claim that Russia is indiscriminately bombing civilians.
Strawman, letsgooo.
Besides your random made up arguments, here are some numbers on civilian casualties:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1293492/ukraine-war-casualties/There’s of course a bunch of civilian massacres still under active investigation, plus a lot of varying numbers between UA officials and independent reports. Mostly it’s just the precise numbers that are unclear, not the act itself. See:
https://www.osce.org/files/f/documents/f/a/515868.pdf https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/06/ukraine-deadly-mariupol-theatre-strike-a-clear-war-crime-by-russian-forces-new-investigation/ https://www.npr.org/2022/06/27/1107854331/russian-missile-strike-shopping-mall-kremenchuk
But of course these are all western propaganda, please enlighten me with your credible sources full of irrefutable proof that i’m entirely consumed by fake news.
It’s not a strawman you just again said that “of course” there’s a bunch of civilian massacres under investigation. You literally just made the same argument you said was a strawman a sentence ago. Show your sources so we can expose your total intellectual dependence on spoon feeding from the media of the US and its allies.
The Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) verified a total of 35,160 civilian casualties during Russia’s invasion of Ukraine as of July 31, 2024. Of them, 23,640 people were reported to have been injured. However, OHCHR specified that the real numbers could be higher.
I already know of this. First of all this statistic is of the total reports of civilian deaths on both sides in the war, this already shows you are terrible at reading. How am I supposed to expect you to treat anything else I show you seriously when you cannot even read your own material? You can’t chalk up every single civilian death reported in the conflict to Russia, that is completely idiotic.
Second, they are taking Ukrainian government reports at face value. Prior to the war in Ukraine The Guardian and BBC and NYT all commented on how corrupt the Ukrainian state is, among the worst in the world.
Third, the UN human rights commission is headed by an EU guy, and is overall an institution which is controlled by the US and never intervenes in US imperialism. The US openly mocks UN officials it has problems with, like with the Iraq war, and uses its clout to prevent Iranian, Russian and Venezuelan politicians from accessing the UN without being arrested. The UN’s total abdication of responsibility as an international human rights institution and subservient reliance on the US and its allies has been put on full display by a year of genocide in Gaza.
https://geopoliticaleconomy.com/2022/03/17/human-rights-ngo-hrw-amnesty-us-government/ Yes Amnesty has close ties to the White House. The global financial system, telecommunications, journalist and academia, it’s all very centralized with America, Western Europe, Japan, Australia, South Korea, Singapore, and to some extent wealth petromonarchies’ main cities Riyadh, Dubai, and Abu Dhabi
You’re ignoring the “USSR” - acquiring neighbor states to loot also. What if Ukraine and Chechen, etc, want to be left on their own?
What is the point of drafted Ukrainians dying for the next four months? You already accept Ukraine will inevitably surrender.
Four months more for Ukraine to ramp up production for their own long-range missiles.
Ukraine has no ability to produce long range missiles whatsoever. These are all American missiles operated by American personnel. The Ukrainians can’t even launch them, never mind build them. And since it takes American personnel to launch them, it would mean the US is literally directly attacking Russia, at which point this in no way can be considered a “proxy” or “cold” war anymore, but a hot war between the two largest nuclear powers.
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They are developing them tho. Also they got their long range drones, that already managed to explode russian oil. So it’s not a realm of possibilities.
Also it has never been considered a proxy war. It’s literal Russian propaganda punch line, my dude. Find better sources than RT
The best source you have for these long range missiles is some Mickey Mouse Ukrainian propaganda outlet? Most of Ukraine’s industrial capacity was in eastern Ukraine, which western Ukraine has lost access to. This sounds like some Ghost of Kyiv-level Wunderwaffe.
Also it has never been considered a proxy war. It’s literal Russian propaganda punch line, my dude. Find better sources than RT
It has always been considered a proxy war, to weaken and ideally regime change or even Balkanize Russia[1][2]. The US government and corporate media aren’t going to tell you that, though[1]. Russia calling it a proxy war is not proof that it is not one. Find better sources yourself.
Did the CIA used mind control for the Russians to invade? Hard to see how the US could have started the proxy war.
they didn’t worked within ukraine, what makes them believe they’re gonna work within russia.
One interesting explanation from Mohammed Mirandi was the establishment wants to escalate as much as possible to prevent Russia from accepting de escalation when Trump comes to power without major concessions from Ukraine.
