Summary
Brian Thompson, CEO of UnitedHealthcare, was fatally shot in a premeditated attack outside the New York Hilton Midtown before speaking at an investor conference.
The gunman, still at large, fired multiple times, leaving shell casings marked with the words “deny,” “defend,” and “depose.”
Authorities suggest Thompson was targeted but remain unclear on the motive. His wife confirmed prior threats against him.
Analysts speculate a possible vendetta tied to his company. The case raises questions about executive security, as Thompson lacked personal protection despite known risks.
I sure hope nobody copies this behavior of retribution against the billionaire class which is responsible for almost all of the worlds suffering.
Thoughts and Prayering so hard right now.
A man can hope. Let’s pray.
I sure hope they do
I sure hope they do
What a bullshit take.
I can’t tell if you picked up on their sarcasm or not.
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I sure hope the internet isn’t a reasonable indicator of how the general public feel about CEOs and billionaires. There are in fact many fantastic CEOs and billionaires who donate and focus their time and money and corporations to benefit communities. There’s more than a reasonable argument that without billionaires, the planet would be suffering more.
This movement of hating on the mega wealthy is misguided. It’s not like billionaires are actually hoarding wealth - they don’t have billions stuffed under their bed. They own companies and stock in companies that are worth money. The money is used to create or buy other companies, to invest in other companies, to create new opportunities, to create jobs.
The Board of Directors are decreasing overhead and increasing profit margins to satisfy Wall Street’s hunger. This is due to changing government regulations, mostly lead by Republicans. The Republicans want limited government, the dismantling of federal programs, an increase in private corporations, and greater opportunities for the wealthy to generate income off Wall Street speculation.
This act should be condemned and the murderer should be sent to prison.
Murdering one person isn’t going to accomplish anything. Murdering all the CEOs isn’t going to accomplish anything. It may feel good to you that this person’s family has lost someone they love in retribution for all the families who have lost the people they love. But it’s not going to prevent anyone else from dying.
Hopefully, after the crowd chills out from seething at the teeth, we can get back to discussing how fucked our health care system is. Oh, sorry - we just elected someone who explicitly says he’s going to make health care worse and more expensive.
Maybe we should give a shit about our government and who we’re voting for.
Maybe we should be shooting each other instead of these CEOs who present more as a symptom of the illness.
Edit: I’m going to take that back. It’s clear that people are just angry about anything and everything. It doesn’t matter how or why or its relevance. It’s not just the internet, clearly. This is how we ended up with another Trump administration. Irrationality and fear are all that matter. Science, facts, context, intelligence, education; all passé. We are the mob standing by with pitchforks.
I don’t believe there is a single billionaire who is a good person.
What gives them the rights to amass such obscene wealth off of the backs of their workforce just to choose what charitable causes they want to spend their ill gotten gains on.
Furthermore, I take issue with the whole stock market and its need for perpetual growth at any cost.
Then you should acknowledge that you are ignorant about who the billionaires are and what good they may be doing.
Most aren’t amassing wealth on the backs of a workforce. Most are making investments for the company they own to make money. As I said, they don’t have the money in their pockets. The company or the stock for the company is worth money.
Look at any sports team owning CEO. They’re not all great but many are decent people who contribute to their communities. And the people working for them are making decent money. The money the team they own makes is from fans spending money on tickets, buying merchandise, and selling broadcast rights.
That’s exactly the same as
Where the fuck did the money that investment paid come from if not the workers at that investment not being paid their fair share?
You’re on .ml ffs, your bad takes are supposed to be the other way around
I know a billionaire who inherited a company from his relatives. By hiring the right people (well educated, very expensive upper management), he was able to increase production and distribution. He paid his entire staff very well. The value of the company increased as brand reputation increased. He invested personal money and time and worked his ass off to make a company he got for free worth even more. He then sold this company for a staggering profit. He took that money to buy another enterprise. Again, he took the skills he had and invested in hiring the right people who knew how to run a gigantic organization. This allowed him to hire more people whom he could pay even more money to return greater value.
Have you ever received a raise? Was it because your value increased or something else?
“by getting other people to do his work he was able to make a lot of money off the back of his daddy’s money”
Biggest brain in the industry here.
That’s not at all what I said or what I know of the situation. You are making assumptions based on your existing feelings without knowing anything of the matter. The person I know worked his ass off more than any person I’ve ever met.
In the industry I’ve worked in, I’ve had the opportunity to rub shoulders with celebrities, athletes, CEOs, etc. They have all been honest hard working people. Every one of them (over a hundred) had some philanthropic enterprises helping children, the sick, the homeless, animals, etc. Honestly, the wealthy people I’ve met in my life are the most incredible humans I’ve ever met. I guess that’s what upsets me. I wish you could all meet one or two of them and see how you come away feeling that these people are the best hope we have at a kinder world.
Even the nicest most hardworking billionaires you’ve met still never stopped exploiting people. A person can’t make a billion dollars through hard work and ingenuity. You only get that rich by extracting value from the labor of others or inheriting the riches gained through such. They passed the point where they gained little to no benefit from figuring out how they could keep getting bigger numbers and rather than distribute the gains downward and they kept going. They paid money managers to maximize their returns and wash away any concerns about how those investments got so profitable. They paid bosses to hire people at the
lowestmost efficient wage they could and then fire them when it’s more efficient. They may even be contributing some of that ill-gotten wealth to philanthropic enterprises. Not enough to impact their life, naturally, but some. The best will even promise to give it all away. Not now of course, when they die. Until then, they deserve it all and get to decide which ills are sexy enough to be worth contributions.And when you meet them at a mixer or a promo event or wherever it is you do, they’ll be happy friendly people. Because why wouldn’t they be? They’re sitting on a dragon’s hoard of wealth extracted from the work of others, with every freedom and luxury, and a fawning entourage and friendly media ready to continually say how nice and special they are.
I assume a wheel that turns will eventually end up on the other side. Because that’s what wheels do. Just like billionaires. If they were so kind they wouldnt be billionaires. “Oh he gives money to children” and who fucking died and made him king of who gets saved? Who gave him authority to decide who deserves his help and who doesn’t?
Everyone protects their own. That’s the problem. He could instead give that money to his workers like they deserve but he pockets it and dishes it out on personal feelings and vibes. He is a monster. They all are. Like a wheel turns.
The billionaires are people who have billions of dollars. If they wanted to do good with their money, they’d be donating it at such a rate that they wouldn’t be billionaires. They never donate enough to threaten their place in the caste and they always make sure to claim it on their taxes.
Donating money is stupid. Investing your money in programs that help people is how most billionaires spread their wealth. If they gave it all away, they’d have no more to give. Instead, you invest the money in something that can continue to benefit people long after they’re gone.
Taxing billionaires until they’re no longer billionaires and investing that into schools, clean energy, and humanitarian aid is how you help people. Letting billionaires roleplay as humanitarians is how we got to where we are. Even if they have good intents, they’re too isolated from the real world to make proper judgments on where the money should go.
You’re right. Their obscene, disgusting levels of wealth and excess should be taxed the shit out by the societies they inhabit. It’s inefficient to just let them pick and choose their own fancies and unironically call themselves altruists.
They are not monarchs.
The problem is that they don’t actually have possession of the billions of dollars. The tax only happens when they sell the stock - as taxable income.
I think I read something recently where someone proposed taxing stocks people are holding. I don’t see that happening. At least not under income tax law.
Moreover, congress embraces the idea that billionaires create industry and jobs. In most cases, this is true. In a lot of cases though, these corporations get away with too much. This is because of a lack of government protections for workers and consumers.
A shame. Wealth taxes for the ultra rich it is, a la Bernie, innovation in all things. Having benefited from friendly, lucrative taxation over the course of a generation has left beyond the reach of current legislation. Tax legislation specifically and solely aimed at the ultra rich, no one would bat an eye.
In most cases? In most cases billionaires and conglomerates have monopolised entire industries, many across multiple industries that can no longer sustain any meaningful competition and growth. A company like Amazon/Google/Meta just replacing all industry with its own brand, squeezing out, gatekeeping or catch & killing any disruptors or smaller ventures is not a net positive for society. That’s how you get to a handful of medical insurers dictating whether you live or die.
We tax land as a percentage of its value. Why not stocks?
How can possible think billionaires are better stewards of the power bestowed upon them by their immense wealth than a democratic society entrusted with that same power would be?
Like the guy who owns the flames N Murray Edwards who were trying to get the city to buy them a new stadium that they’ve finally got funded. I recall allegations that they were trying to use it to influence the municipal election/make it an election issue.
Not saying government shouldn’t pay for infrastructure, but the public paid for a large portion of the development, they’re not giving back shit unless it personally benefits them, financially, influence or just public image. That level of wealth is unfathomable and you do not get to that level without exploitation, there is absolutely no such thing as an ethical billionaire, that includes people benefiting from generational wealth.
You know what would be beneficial? If the wealth they’re hoarding went back into the system. Imagine if those billions just sitting there doing nothing but generating dividends actually were invested into making the world a better place. At the very least, money in the hands of the people who’s labour went into generating their (virtual) wealth.
It just seems like people keep repeating this line “there is absolutely no such thing as an ethical billionaire” without giving it any thought. Who said this and what facts do they have to back up this statement?
Companies are worth money. The value of that company increases for a thousand different reasons and what that company does with that money varies.
Some companies, like Walmart, Amazon, UHC, squeeze profit from every place they’re legally (or not) allowed to to benefit the bottom line and executive pockets. Some companies are full of hard working people doing incredible things. Some companies just get lucky and they sell a shit load of stuff. \
Some billionaires are celebrities or athletes who’ve taken an already large sum of money and invested it for a small return. Some billionaires started with a few million, made some wise financial decisions, maybe bought real estate at the right place and time, and turned it into billions. Once you have a large amount of money, it’s not hard to make it bigger.
I mean, it seems like the argument against billionaires is that no company should ever see an increase in value; that no person should ever be worth more tomorrow than they were yesterday.
Not every company makes money doing the same thing. Not every CEO is a billionaire. Not every billionaire is evil.
You can throw out every example you want about the actions of particular companies but I’d argue there are just as many, if not more, doing things somewhat decently. Just because a company is worth billions doesn’t mean it’s bad; just as a company making a few hundred thousand isn’t necessarily good.
You’re all laser focused on certain people and certain industries. Just step outside the box and get some perspective.
Also… why are we talking about billionaires when this guy was only worth $43 million?
You cannot have that much wealth and operate in an ethical way, it’s not possible. Just like you cannot have non-consensual sex with somebody in an ethical way, there is no scenario where that is possible.
Just because a system allows you to do something doesn’t make it morally acceptable to do it. Right now, it’s trivial to scam people out of tens of thousands of dollars using meme crypto-currency. But just because you can do it doesn’t mean it’s morally acceptable.
That’s the classic, “don’t hate the player, hate the game.” incorrect, you can hate both the player, and the game, it’s not mutually exclusive.
Capitalism is a fundamentally evil system. It allows and creates incentives for people to make effectively unlimited amounts of money by exploiting others. Billionaires are the ultimate example of what happens when Capitalism is allowed to run rampant for centuries. No one person should be able to amass that amount of wealth and power, it’s wrong, and it indicates deep societal problems.
An ethical way to operate a company would be some kind of employee-owned structure, where everybody who works for the company has equal say in how it operates. They get to decide if they want a CEO, who it is, and what they get paid. They get to decide collectively what the company does with the profits. They might decide to equally distribute it to all employees. They might decide to reinvest some percentage in better workflows, better equipment, or nicer facilities. The point is it would actually be democratic.
Also, I know this guy wasn’t a Billionaire. There are other ways to be a bad person than being a billionaire.
You are starting your argument off with two entirely different concepts. Employees are paid for their work because they are employees. Non-consensual sex is the explicit lack of agreement to be in the situation.
Please, tell me WHY it is unethical to employ people? How is it exploitive to run a business? At what point does a company make so much money that it’s unethical for them to continue doing business?
I’m on board with a coop and democratically run operations. When in history has any company ever succeeded as such? To my knowledge, these are locally run organizations with no ability to scale up. So, how do we end up with big nation and world changing projects? Is it your belief that we shouldn’t have large scale projects? We shouldn’t have corporations like Google or Caterpillar or Visa? Is it your belief that we
shouldmust destroy everything we know and go back to village life? Are these real things that you think have to happen or is this in an idealistic world? How do you take what we have now and make it into your image?Do you think merely agreeing to something makes the arrangement acceptable? A mugger sticks a gun to my head and says, “give me your wallet or I’ll kill you.” I give him my wallet. Was that actually a real, consensual choice? Of course not, agreement is a necessary condition for a fair contract, but not a sufficient one.
If you’re doing the work, you’re entitled to the fruits of your labor. Slavery is the exact inverse of that, where you are entitled to none of the fruits of your labor.
Capitalism tries to split the difference, where depending on a complex set of contractual agreements of dubious legitimacy, you are entitled to some arbitrary amount of fruit for your labor.
There are degrees of severity of course, some relationships are far more exploitative than others.
There isn’t a magical number where a business becomes unethically profitable. The issue with Capitalism isn’t one of degree. It’s not like a bath that’s too hot, where the only issue is the temperature needs to be lowered.
If your business operates in a way that is undemocratic, it’s unethical. Doesn’t matter if all the employees agreed to it, doesn’t matter if they all signed contracts permitting it, doesn’t matter that the legal system allows the business to operate like that.
Now of course, as I said, there are degrees. A mom & pop flower shop that employs local high school kids as part time workers, pays them well, and treats them nicely, that’s not a huge issue. Unethical still, but not terrible. It’s like cheating on a middle school pop quiz, still wrong, but extremely minor.
You also brought up the issue of practicality. This requires a lot of depth to respond to, so would you prefer to pivot to that, or stay on the more theoretical questions about Capitalism and exploitation?
I’m not reading all that because there’s no such thing as an ethical billionaire. Oh I’m sure they’re plenty nice to your face, but you can’t earn a billion dollars. You can only steal it.
We’re not arguing whether or not you can earn a billion dollars. If that’s your argument, being a billionaire has nothing to do with it. You’re just pissed at people making maximum money for minimum effort and you think that’s unethical. That’s call an uninformed opinion.
I just don’t waste my time being angry at others for things that have nothing to do with me. I see how my life and the world around me has been benefitted from those with more money than me and I’m grateful. There’s a good argument for it but with the alternative being Communism, I just don’t see humans accepting a lifestyle of stagnation.
I’m fucking enraged that we live in a system that lets dragons horde mountains of gold while their nextdoor neighbors starve to death or are buried in medical debt that is mathematically impossible to get out of. And idiots like you are over here going, “but guys, Smaug is nice to meeeeee”. You being OK with any of it means you’re 100% oblivious to the context that this conversation happens in.
Oh no! ANYTHING but THAT! Could you imagine living in a world where people don’t die because they can’t afford insulin? I shudder just thinking about it. Thank God those disgusting poors die like they’re supposed to, that’s the American Way™
You actually believe insulin would exist in a communist society? And hospitals?
People taking on medical debt or dying due to poor health care has nothing to do with billionaires. It does have to do with capitalism. It has to do with a government who rejects social safety programs in favor of wall street run corporations. This has been the republican agenda for decades and people keep voting for it.
I really am not sure how to break this to you.
What would you call a government who embraces social safety programs against the interests of wall street run corporations?
That would be one that no one alive today will ever see in the United States.
Its so hard so we should never try and just let all the disgusting poors die like pigs in the street. Got it.
And its not worth ever trying to change anything for future generations, fuck your loser kids, you got yours right?
Quick question, which country has the most doctors per capita in the world?
I didn’t ask bout doctors - I said hospitals. The answer to that would be Guinea Bissau. I’ll concede this point to you even though the top answers are largely skewed due to the physical size of these locations (Sweden is the most reasonable answer outside tiny Cuba and Monaco).
Help me figure this out. In the region I’ve lived my whole life, older hospitals that were initially established by churches have been left to crumble or have been bought out by other corporate run healthcare facilities. So, without these new hospitals, in your mind, what would the future of health care have been in this region?
These hospitals all crumbled and failed because they were no longer profitable, which is not a problem that exists in a socialist run country.
So many words and yet you didn’t answer the question.
I’m not sure how the size of Cuba has any connection to numbers of doctors per capita. In any case, they didn’t used to have nearly so many, it was just like any other poor, exploited, undeveloped nation, and people frequently died from lack of care. When the communists came to power, they immediately focused on things like education and healthcare, and now they have so many doctors they regularly send them out to other countries in humanitarian missions, where before they were the ones in need of humanitarian aid. So yes, just looking from past examples, there would definitely be doctors and hospitals with communists in charge, moreso than under capitalism even, and more accessible.
Obviously, you’d just have the state build those hospitals. What reason is there that hospitals should be profit-seeking?
Health isurance companies are literal death panels. Every CEO, board member, director or executive have blood on their hands. They should be living in fear.
Cool. You think murdering people is the right way to do that or maybe better government regulation?
The rich should consider history. They’re the ones putting a target on their backs.
Classic case of treating the symptoms while ignoring the cause. Somebody else is just going to take the CEO position. You celebrating their deaths isn’t going to change a damn thing
In America? What does “treating the symptoms” look like? We couldn’t get any real change under Biden and now we’re headed into a dictatorship. We’re past the point of doing anything about the climate change that the rich brought us, so anything we do isn’t going to change a damn thing.
Also, statistically speaking, changing the CEO of UnitedHealthcare could bring their denial rates down. It’s the industry leader. Anyone else could be a positive change.
And maybe the next one will be a little more worried about how many people without anything to lose his actions are creating. If not, then keep going until one does.
No, but in the total absence of government regulation its the only option available. It’s not good, but at least it exists.
When have we ever had government regulation
The US just voted in fascism. There will be far, far less government regulation (of corporations and the rich).
Big time. I’m literally stocking up on things I might need to get me through the next four years.
I keep seeing “next four years,” and I think people are being wildly optimistic.
Even if we still have elections again, when has a democrat ever relinquished power that a republican gained?
You demonstrate no faith in the system you extol.
“Many fantastic CEOs and billionaires”
You’re either extraordinarily naive or lying.
Actually, someone with first hand experience. Where have you acquired your knowledge of the matter?
First hand experience of what? Hanging around billionaires?
Yes. In their homes and places of employment. Listening to them on the phone instructing staff. Watching them in staff meetings. Watching them direct charitable organizations to ensure the integrity of the organization is maintained regardless of all else.
Charitable organizations are basically PR for billionaires. You’re just foolish enough not to realize that.
That’s what your buddies want you to believe top maintain the class war. I would encourage you to step outside, join charitable organization, work your way up and speak with the people who run it and fund the operation. Then come back and tell me they’re bad evil people just in it for the PR. You’d be shocked how many people of wealth came from nothing or have family suffering with an illness. I’m not opposed to the class war but it should be founded on the right reasons. That being lack of government oversight.
What class war? All I see is a one sided massacre. This murder doesn’t event register on the scale of horror working class people are forced to endure daily.
What makes you think I haven’t? I know you’re right when you say they aren’t just in for the PR. Billionaires love getting their egos stroked publicly at fundraisers, ribbon cuttings, or other “charity” events. These are such nauseating displays of narcissistic behavior. I’m sorry you’re too wrapped up in their emotional sob stories to have any reasonable perspective when you’re in the room with these people.
its not class war anymore, its class occupation
I hope you just forgot the /s because wowzers is this one fuck of a take…
I’d love it if we could vote better people into government, but the billionaires have been putting their fingers on the scale. If anyone is responsible for the resentment aimed at them, it’s them.
I agree. What pains me the most is that it doesn’t have to be this way. Why is fake news so obvious to some people while others suck it up? I can’t tell you how many people I spoke with in the past year who were wholly clueless to so much about the election and what Trump or Harris were saying. The propaganda, coming from billionaires or foreign actors, is too easy for people to believe.
One part lack of education, one part lead poisoning, one part telling them what they want to hear.
How does boot taste? I wouldn’t know, I’m eating the new meat option…
hur dur hur dur
The billionaires aren’t the problem?
I do get your point. It’s bad to take joy in the pain of other people. That it is bad as a society that we celebrate the deaths of our fellows. I don’t really want vigilante justice to become our norm–that’s how gangs and cartels come to prominence. I’d much rather have institutions that do their damn jobs so the common person doesn’t believe justice can only be found at the end of a gun. The billionaires keep voting/promoting to break those institutions though!
I love Bernie. The point he and I are making is that government is failing the people.
I love Bernie too! We have that in common.
But you’re take is only part of the point he’s making though. The government is failing people in large part because such a small segment of the population has enormous sway over who gets to be in government.
I had a much longer response that got deleted when the app force closed on me 😮💨
I really did want to weigh in from your original post, though, how you argue that billionaires make jobs, make products, make the world better. Like, sure, some do, but the ones at the top? Big corporations? No, they don’t. Literally, Walmart workers have relied on government assistance programs due to poor pay for decades. Companies like Toys R Us get bought up by billionaires and liquidated for more money as employees lose their jobs. Or billionaires buy things that shouldn’t be profit driven–where is that return on investment going to come from? These are billionaires choices, not Congress or City Council or whatever, that directly shape society negatively. Sure, governments allow it–especially governments that billionaires have bought.
I used to be against limits to billionaires (I still kind of am, I’d prefer minimum/maximum earning ratios), but actually watching them work and change in the world, I have seen that they have too much power with too few checks. I mean, hell, from a global warming perspective, it’s hard to find what I, as a little person, do matters at all. I could die tomorrow and produce no more carbon emissions (beyond my body’s offgassing), and it wouldn’t change anything. Meanwhile, some small percentage of people, just like in Bernie’s tweet, contribute much more each day than I will in my whole life. Fuck, man.
Well, I saw it more as the government is failing by allowing them all this unreasonable influence in the first place.
I’m familiar with these arguments. My general issue is that people get really invested in supporting arguments that seem reasonable on the surface without really having much knowledge of the full situation. Headlines are visceral. The nitty gritty of the story is often much more nuanced. Of course there are worse case examples and they make the headlines. Then something else seems similar and people assume they’re all the same kind of story.
I just don’t blame the billionaires. I don’t blame the corporations. I blame the governments and indirectly the voters. Neither the corporations nor congress are going to go out of their way to reduce harm.
America has been brainwashed since the Reagan administration that capitalism is king. I’m cautiously optimistic that this is coming to an end but I don’t see anything prepped to take its place. Americans are consuming more than ever before. We’ll see what happens in the next administration when no one can afford anything.
The people have to be broken free of the brainwashing before they start speaking out and getting congress to change regulations. I don’t think killing a CEO is going to do any good.
I understand that corporations do what they do to further their prime directive (profit maximizing, as I figure), but blaming the government for not sufficiently innoculating itself against them is kinda wild to me. Yes, Citizens United is an abomination, but even if it weren’t the current meta, corporations would still do their utmost to influence the levers of power to their own ends.
Every billionaire is a policy failure.
People continue to be mystified by money’s status as a commodity. It is only worth something if not everyone who needs it has it. The existence of the rich creates the poor. To be paid for your time is to be stolen from.
I hope your favorite billionaire is next.
Genuinely the funniest comment I’ve read tonight
That’s a disgusting thing to say.
You know what I find disgusting? Defending people who by their very nature and existence bleed people dry for every dollar they can. At least I hope your guy gets it quick. You hope I bleed my whole life however. Cruel is what you are.
I’m not defending anyone. I’m saying that it’s disgusting to wish death upon someone else. I’m calling you out for being a horrible human for thinking such a thing.
Tell me how “by their very nature and existence” a “billionaire” bleeds people dry for every dollar they can. Just a general thought would be fine.
Then tell me how this applies to the person this entire topic is related to - the guy who was worth less than $50 million.
I know billionaires who have built hospitals, created organizations to help child cancer patients, donated millions to public schools, created organizations to get homes for the homeless; just to mention a few things.
If you want to roll with “billionaires shouldn’t exist”, you have to look at what we would lose if they were gone and how we would replace them. Should we tax the wealthy enough so government is run more efficiently? What agency in what level of government is going to organize the creation of the things we’ve lost? Does our government have the will or knowhow to create such programs? How are you going to tax “billionaires” who don’t have billions of dollars of liquidity?
I hate to use the guy as an example but look at Musk. Do we need electric cars, reusable space rockets, residential batteries, satellite internet? Could someone else have done it? How long would it have taken NASA to get where SpaceX has? How do you start a car company if you don’t have the collateral to back it up? Heck, even Trump built his empire on the lie that he was a billionaire (not that casinos are worthy of this conversation).
Elon musk didn’t build a reusable rocket. The people he underpays and overworks did. Case closed. Thanks for proving the point.
How much are they being underpaid and overworked?
See here’s the thing. Your trying to bait into a numbers game. I’m telling you the numbers game inherently by its nature underpays it’s workers. There can’t be a billionaire without the workers producing billions that they don’t get back. As for overworked, it’s Elon god damn musk. Famous for overworking his employees, especially his migrant workers who depend on his employment for their visas. Talk about not understanding how money and business works.
Sounds like you’re making e/acc-like (effective altruism) arguments. Which basically is to make as much money as possible to use that money for positive change. It’s very flawed, because 1) to make as much money as possible, you need to exploit workers, customers, or investors, and 2) it’s authoritarian in nature. The wealthy are extremely out of touch with reality, and their priorities and ideal of what “positive change” is generally don’t align with the populace, or what’s needed most.
I don’t think murdering CEOs is the answer, but I do hope the working class becomes more class conscious; the wealthy class sure is, and has never stopped waging class war.
Did I say make as much money as possible?
A business should make as much money as needed to cover overhead and make enough profit to meet their business plan. The better that company is at achieving that goal, the more valuable that company is.
I reject this notion that all businesses exist to exploit workers.
The wealthy people I know are all very involved with helping the poor and sick. They’re genuinely good people from what I personally know of them. Are they doing what the people need most? I don’t know. I know my own city has often invested in programs that weren’t really helping those it intended to help. From what I learned this past year, it’s striking how little government knows who is in need of what.
This is what we should be having more conversations about. How is it that we have this powerful tool to speak our minds yet so many people are being ignored? Or voting against their own interests.
That’s because you don’t understand the basic economic principles under which businesses operate. You think value is created out of thin air and is not a product of human labor.
It’s almost like governments do not operate in the democratic interests of the civilian populations they govern…. So strange. I wonder why that could be?
Value of a brand is created from consumer perspective. Value of a company is created by balancing operational expenses. There is nothing explicit in either of these that is exploitive and to suggest so is a broadly uninformed claim.
If human labor is involved in a company, why are you all so stuck on the concept that people are not being paid for their work? How is it that simply by being an employer, you are exploiting staff? I mean, I admit I’m totally being exploited at my current job but I’ve had other jobs where I was paid extremely well and given great opportunities. Are you talking about specific industries? Specific corporations? Is the guy selling kabobs down the street from me exploiting his staff?
You guys are either being dishonest with me or dishonest with yourselves. Or you really have no idea what you’re talking about and just regurgitating what you’ve heard other people say.
Again, it seems like you have a really vague notion of what value actually is which is what makes you incapable of understanding the concept of labor exploitation. You need to understand the difference between marginal theories of value, which is defined by a circular logic where price determines value and value determines price, and labor theories of value, where people interact with the material world to modify it in some way that gives it added utility.
It’s not that simple. You can be an employer and not exploit the people that work for you. However, doing that means you will not have a profitable business. Profits come from exploitation. Please understand that when I use the word exploitation I’m not making an inherently moral argument about whether exploitation is good or bad. Exploitation is simply a material phenomena. I believe it only becomes a moral issue when undue suffering occurs as a result of said exploitation.
He might be. Small business are often some of the most exploitive workplaces because of how unprofitable they can be. It’s not uncommon for a small business to be forced into situations where they really have no choice but to exploit their staff if they want to continue operating. This is why so many restaurants in the US rely on undocumented immigrants who they can pay less than the minimum wage. It’s a flaw in the way our economy works.
This happens to a lot of people in industries where profitability declines. When profits are high, workers in those industries often get paid that they can afford their basic needs. However, as profits wane investors look to bolster them by taking more from their employees. What’s happening in the tech sector is a prime example of such a phenomenon. Unfortunately, this is a tendency that’s baked into the our economy. It prevents long term sustainable from being achieved in industries that are key to our economy but where the opportunities for new markets or innovations are lacking.
Have you thought that maybe you’re the one who’s more confident that you really should be? I get that a lot of what I’ve said may contradict vague notions about how the economy works that you may have absorbed simply because you exist within a world steeped in corporate propaganda. However, your beliefs are not ones that any worthwhile economist would take seriously.
I’ve known and know business people as well (not extremely wealthy; most have probably < $10M net worth). I don’t think I’ve ever met one that wasn’t trying to make the most money possible (for the businesses they had equity in, and for themselves). They certainly think of themselves as good people, and are interpersonally decent people, but the ideologies they adopt allow them to justify anti-social actions. They brag about being able to secure low-wage labor (third-world workers, unpaid internships, etc), and employing anti-consumer and predatory practices in their products. Anytime they do good, they either have ulterior motives, or it’s just nepotism. Every social interaction they have seems to have a transactional sub-text.
Profit is literally the surplus value of the worker’s labor. The workers generate it, and the business appropriates it in whatever way the business owners see fit. This is exploitative, anti-democratic, and damaging to society, imo. Eventually, the owners may take a big payout by selling the company (whose value was generated by the workers), and possibly throw some crumbs to the workers, who may get laid off soon after.
Many of the problems with government is it’s beholden to the wealthy, imo. In regards to the U.S., I think the next administration will preside over an almost complete capture of government by oligarchs. I think we will become like Russia or East Asian oligarchies. I’m an anarcho-leaning leftist, so I don’t think large powerful governments are the answer either.
Most media is controlled by the wealthy/corporations, who either purposely use it to advance their own interests (divide the working class, selective reporting, purposely biased algos, and spinning narratives), or are just damaging as a side-effect of pursuing profits. Honestly, at this point in time, I think most of it is purposeful, and not a side-effect. In “new media” the far-right seems to have an awful lot of money, to the point they’re doing theatrical releases of movies. It’s already came out that some far-right “new media” was directly funded by Russia (an oligarchal nation with ties to the wanna-be oligarchs of the upcoming administration).
Interesting. The people I now brag about hiring the best people. Bringing them in from top universities around the world and bragging about how well they pay them. Perhaps the people I know are the exception because they are setting the bar for being known as well paying organizations. They’re explicitly paying well to entice people out of other competing organizations.
No it’s not. Profit is dictated by the business. Any business sets the price of their good or service in order to cover overhead and expand the business. If you’re sitting at home writing code all day as Ian independent contractor, how are you going to set your hourly wage? Are you going to just calculate what it costs to pay for electric and buy lunch for the eight hours you’re working? I would hope not. You’re going to calculate your expenses and multiple that to reach a figure that pays for the rest of your life plus money for expanding your operations. Are you exploring yourself in order to purchase health insurance or save up for a new computer?
I’m sorry but I’m tired explaining basic business concepts to people. This shouldn’t be hard. I understand people like Walmart workers and coalminers are treated like shit but this concept that every human who works for a living is being exploited is just trash. You need a better argument.
As much as the market will bear, which is what my work is worth according to market principles. What’s just needed to expand operations or whatever only plays the role of setting a minimum price. You seem to keep arguing that people and businesses only charge what’s needed and no more; and very few people or businesses do that (those working for passion, like academic scientists and non-profits).
Einstein may explain it better than me:
Huh?
The French invented something to un-elect Fascists in a democratic manner
If a billionaire was a good person, they wouldn’t be billionaires any longer.
You don’t become ultra-wealthy without carelessly exploiting workers. We shouldn’t need to rely on their benevolence. The fact some of the ultra-wealthy give away some of their wealth but remain ultra-wealthy is in itself an indictment of the system you’re defending. It shouldn’t be a choice. They shouldn’t be able to gather that much wealth and it should instead be used to benefit other people without their concent.
oh my god could you be smoking pole any harder
A violent revolution may not be the answer, but certain things need to happen for the upper class and our government to recognize, in their own way since they can’t seem to relate to the general public, that the people they represent and hold power over are not happy. Yes we vote in our officials, but due to the way the system has changed over the years, gerrymandering and gentrification has made minorities feel wildly unrepresented. Progressives feel wildly unrepresented because they honestly just want the best for everyone in the country while conservatives typically want to maintain the old ways (usually involving sexism or racism). Democrats have done nothing to appeal to the progressives. Republicans have broadened their appeal wildly to even feel desired by those that they truthfully aim to negatively impact. This has been through extreme lies and misinformation spread. Everyone has been talking about “nobody wants to work anymore,” but nobody has been talking about “nobody wants to vote anymore.” It’s disgraceful that we call ourselves a democracy but around 50% of the entire voting populace feels they shouldn’t vote because their vote doesn’t matter, or are put into a position where they can’t vote because of the state they live in.
I will never advocate for violence. I was not alive during the civil rights movements or the women’s abolition movements, or the worker’s rights movements. I know a lot of people had to die for the people that govern us to pass legislation to improve those conditions. Why do the average everyday Americans have to die in large numbers for legislation to be passed… even locally? I think a few people that have power over us or that govern us being killed is far better than more everyday Americans that lead the labor force. I don’t want random, good CEOs to die. And I think the general public will agree. It’s not like the CEO of Costco was being targeted.
I dunno, I think it’s the white rural working class who’ve spoke loudest over the past few years. I’m not one of them but I think it’s important to reflect on the fact.
I agree with everything you’re saying but I would add that we’ve chosen to take an isolationist attitude towards our neighbors who seem threatening or unrelatable to us. Added, the pandemic induced reliance on screens to do everything, we’re just growing further and further away from each other. The media, the ones promoting this initial story, are the ones most responsible for dividing us. They do it for ratings, for stock growth, for promotions and payouts. They do not do it to educate the public. They are not the fourth pillar of democracy.
The unbreakable walls of division are closings off to bothering to really understand anything. So many people are quick to read a headline and make an unfounded argument for or against it. Does anyone care about this man’s family whom I’m sure loved him? Does anyone care that he wasn’t even a $100 millionaire, never mind a billionaire? No one is telling the good stories about good billionaires. Those who build hospitals, contribute to fighting childhood cancer, who support public schools and build homes for the homeless. Even when given opposing facts about a topic, all people are set in their opinions. It’s a defense mechanism because people are terrified to be kind to one another. Because the media has told us this is what we are now.
Omg this right here is so funny. You must be blind. Media outlets talk non stop about how amazing, smart, caring, and hardworking billionaires supposedly are.
Oh right so do the billionaires actually pour the concrete? Do they administer the chemo to the kids with cancer? Do they put together assignments for students? Do they hammer the nails to frame the house they’re supposedly building? Because as I see it if all they’re doing is signing check then they really haven’t done anything for anyone. It’s just our fucked up society means all the people that actually do good in the world need the sign of from a billionaire. If you don’t have their approval but you still want to work for the benefit of all, tough luck. Rent is still due at the end of the month.
I was not aware media outlets were talking about how amazing and hardworking billionaires are. No. Do you have some examples?
No. They establish companies (employee people) to build, manage, and maintain these organizations as they dictate. They’re actively involved in the principles of the organization and maintain a seat on the board of directors to ensure upper management is fulfilling their vision. A lot of their work is with lawyers to make sure everything is done legally and to push legislation through city council to keep the project on time. Sometimes a project will involve contributions to the city like parks or public spaces so they work with architects to design those projects too. That’s a very small part of what I’m aware of what they do.
They are giving away hundreds of millions of dollars for the future benefit of lives well beyond their own time. They’re doing more by establishing these long-term enterprises than they ever could by simply giving out money. Because that’s what makes sense in the reality we live in.
Are you saying that wealthy people should not use their money to build hospitals or help dying kids?
Oh come on. If you really are in the room with billionaires at charitable events you know the press is often invited to write puff pieces about how generous they are.
I’m saying we shouldn’t let people undemocratically decide whether or not working class people build hospitals and treat dying kids. By advocating that billionaires hold that power you are literally siding against democracy. But hey I guess all those super yachts just need to be built. For the good of society right?
Your argument is for one not being enough, in case you didn’t realise.
This is surprising coming from an ml user, but otherwise i support your stance
I’m probably not on the right server. I just picked it cause it was short.
average lemmy.ml take. the billionaires aren’t gonna let you hit, go back to your algebra homework
This is quite ironic because a typical ml user’s take would be joyous over this news
the point is that’s it’s a take with absolutely no coherency or thought behind it