Zionism is a settler colonialism project that was able to really start with the support of British Imperialism. Zionism as a political movement started with Theodore Herzl in the 1880s as a ‘modern’ way to ‘solve’ the ‘Jewish Question’ of Europe. Western Nations supported this instead of instituting legal protections and refuge for Jewish people fleeing persecution.
Herzl himself explicitly considered Zionism a Settler Colonialist project, Setter Colonialism is always violent. The difficulty in creating a democratic Jewish state in an area inhabited by people who are not Jewish, is that enough Palestinian people need to be ‘Transferred’ to have a demographic majority that is Jewish. Ben-Gurion explicitly rejected Secular Bi-national state solutions in favor of partition.
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Zionism’s aims in Palestine, its deeply-held conviction
that the Land of Israel belonged exclusively to the Jewish people as a whole, and the idea of Palestine’s “civilizational barrenness" or “emptiness” against the background of European imperialist ideologies all converged in the logical conclusion that the native population should make way for thenewcomers.
The idea that the Palestinian Arabs must find a place for themselves elsewhere was articulated early on. Indeed, the founder of the movement, Theodor Herzl, provided an early reference to transfer even before he formally outlined his theory of Zionist rebirth in his Judenstat.
An 1895 entry in his diary provides in embryonic form many of the elements that were to be demonstrated repeatedly in the Zionist quest for solutions to the “Arab problem ”-the idea of dealing with state governments over the heads of the indigenous population, Jewish acquisition of property that would be inalienable, “Hebrew Land" and “Hebrew Labor,” and the removal of the native population.
Both Hamas and Fatah have agreed to a Two-State solution based on the 1967 borders for decades. Oslo and Camp David were used by Israel to continue settlements in the West Bank and maintain an Apartheid, while preventing any actual Two-State solution
Hamas proposed a full prisoner swap as early as Oct 8th, and agreed to the US proposed UN Permanent Ceasefire Resolution. Additionally, Hamas has already agreed to no longer govern the Gaza Strip, as long as Palestinians receive liberation and a unified government can take place.
The existence of Hamas, and any armed resistance movement, is directly due to the decades of violence experienced daily under the permanent occupation, the Apartheid State, of Israel. It’s impossible to understand their existence if you don’t understand the lived experience and material conditions they are forced to live under. There is no such thing as a perfect victim when it comes to anti-Colonialist resistance, not for the Vietcong, the IRA, or the ANC either. Can you condemn the violence of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising in the same way as the violence of the Warsaw Ghetto?
It’s honestly more for the many more who are just browsing. Although there have been a few that genuinely weren’t aware and changed their mind. But yeah, there are also plenty who are simply trolls and completely dehumanize Palestinians if not all Arabs and Muslims. I’ve got that troll tagged as a Zionist now
Whatever dude, Lemmy is way too far left for me to be arguing at this point. I don’t approve of genocide on either side and I’m leaving it at that. I’m not gonna win or even remotely get anywhere so I’ll stop wasting everyone’s time. It’s not productive which is the entire point of having an argument.
Well you’re arguing off of misinformation. I provided sources for you to learn about the conflict if you are actually interested. I don’t care to argue. You have many resources available and I have even more, such as documentaries. But the books I referenced have the best depth of knowledge about the conflict
I haven’t read the sources you posted yet, I’ve been arguing entirely with the content of your messages as reading the sources in the middle of an argument is too time consuming, however I will go read them just to see if it changes my world view. That is the point of all this. Anyway, cheers (I am not trolling for what it’s worth, if you’d rather label me an idiot then feel free to do so)
Why is it that Arabs live peacefully in Israel yet a Jew steps foot in Palestine and gets killed. Also…just throwing this out there but you should really listen to some of the talks given by Mosab Hassan Yousef, they are incredibly eye opening.
That’s completely delusional when we’re talking about Israel, an Apartheid State, committing genocide on the native population it has occupied for generations. I suggest you read any of the books listed or read any of the sources linked, because you’re either unaware of the reality of the situation or have completely dehumanized Palestinian people.
This second class citizenship has only gotten worse. The article goes into a few more examples of how they are second class citizens, especially when it comes to censorship and a lack of civil rights. White very terrible, it’s nothing compared to the lack of human rights in the West Bank or the ongoing genocide in Gaza.
Since Hamas’s October 7, 2023 attack, Israeli authorities have clamped down hard on Palestinian-Israeli expressions of dissent over the war in Gaza, while Benjamin Netanyahu’s government — widely regarded as the most rightwing in the country’s history — has advanced a raft of legislation that human rights groups say is discriminatory and infringes on Palestinians’ rights.
They argue it entrenches a system that has long treated them as second-class citizens and as suspects.
Ethnic Cleansing is fundamental to Zionism
Zionism’s aims in Palestine, its deeply-held conviction
that the Land of Israel belonged exclusively to the Jewish people as a whole, and the idea of Palestine’s “civilizational barrenness" or “emptiness” against the background of European imperialist ideologies all converged in the logical conclusion that the native population should make way for thenewcomers.
The idea that the Palestinian Arabs must find a place for themselves elsewhere was articulated early on. Indeed, the founder of the movement, Theodor Herzl, provided an early reference to transfer even before he formally outlined his theory of Zionist rebirth in his Judenstat.
An 1895 entry in his diary provides in embryonic form many of the elements that were to be demonstrated repeatedly in the Zionist quest for solutions to the “Arab problem ”-the idea of dealing with state governments over the heads of the indigenous population, Jewish acquisition of property that would be inalienable, “Hebrew Land" and “Hebrew Labor,” and the removal of the native population.
Israel justifies the settlements and military bases in the West Bank in the name of Security. However, the reality of the settlements on-the-ground has been the cause of violent resistance and a significant obstacle to peace, as it has been for decades.
This type of settlement, where the native population gets ‘Transferred’ to make room for the settlers, is a long standing practice.
Further, declassified Israeli documents show that the Occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip were deliberately planned before being executed in 1967:
The settlements are maintained through a violent apartheid that routinely employs violence towards Palestinians and denies human rights like water access, civil rights, etc. This kind of control gives rise to violent resistance to the Apartheid occupation, jeopardizing the safety of Israeli civilians.
The apartheid regime is based on organized, systemic violence against Palestinians, which is carried out by numerous agents: the government, the military, the Civil Administration, the Supreme Court, the Israel Police, the Israel Security Agency, the Israel Prison Service, the Israel Nature and Parks Authority, and others. Settlers are another item on this list, and the state incorporates their violence into its own official acts of violence. Settler violence sometimes precedes instances of official violence by Israeli authorities, and at other times is incorporated into them. Like state violence, settler violence is organized, institutionalized, well-equipped and implemented in order to achieve a defined strategic goal.
Why is it you lie? most Arabs do not live peacefully in Israel. They are arrested and assaulted frequently. Also history show’s it’s the Israeli feet in Palestine that result in tens of thousands of dead Palestinian men, women, and children.
…right…so 20% of the Israeli population is Arab…and they get arrested and assaulted on the daily. That’s a fairly substantial percentage for a minority population, seems unlikely for the percentage to both be that high and for them to be treated so poorly and oppressed so throughly especially when they could just defect to Palestine. Additionally Israel has an 18% Islamic population when broken down by religion. Look at Palestine meanwhile, 99% Islamic, 100% Arab…the numbers don’t lie, one of them is definitely more tolerant of diversity than the other.
Anyone trying to claim a connection to nearly 3,000 years back is utterly insane. You might as well go invade Africa as it was home at one point too, right?
Israel wouldn’t be attacking Palestine if Palestine hadn’t attacked first.
Zionism is a settler colonialism project that was able to really start with the support of British Imperialism. Zionism as a political movement started with Theodore Herzl in the 1880s as a ‘modern’ way to ‘solve’ the ‘Jewish Question’ of Europe. Western Nations supported this instead of instituting legal protections and refuge for Jewish people fleeing persecution.
Herzl himself explicitly considered Zionism a Settler Colonialist project, Setter Colonialism is always violent. The difficulty in creating a democratic Jewish state in an area inhabited by people who are not Jewish, is that enough Palestinian people need to be ‘Transferred’ to have a demographic majority that is Jewish. Ben-Gurion explicitly rejected Secular Bi-national state solutions in favor of partition.
Quote
Page 8, The Concept of Transfer 1882-1948
10 myths of Israel by Ilan Pappe, summerized and full book
Transfer Committee and the JNF led to Forced Displacement of 100,000 Palestinians throughout the mandate.
Peace Process and Solution
Both Hamas and Fatah have agreed to a Two-State solution based on the 1967 borders for decades. Oslo and Camp David were used by Israel to continue settlements in the West Bank and maintain an Apartheid, while preventing any actual Two-State solution
Hamas proposed a full prisoner swap as early as Oct 8th, and agreed to the US proposed UN Permanent Ceasefire Resolution. Additionally, Hamas has already agreed to no longer govern the Gaza Strip, as long as Palestinians receive liberation and a unified government can take place.
Oslo was used as a land grab while continuing to deny Palestinians human rights
(Oslo Accord Sources: MEE, NYT, Haaretz, AJ).
How Avi Shlaim moved from two-state solution to one-state solution
‘One state is a game changer’: A conversation with Ilan Pappe
One State Solution, Foreign Affairs
Historian Works on the History
Palestine: A Four Thousand Year History - Nur Masalha
The Concept of Transfer 1882-1948 - Nur Masalha
A History of Modern Palestine - Ilan Pappe
The Hundred Years’ War on Palestine - Rashid Khalidi
The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine - Ilan Pappe
The 1967 Arab-Israeli War: Origins and Consequences - Avi Shlaim
The Biggest Prison on Earth: A History of the Occupied Territories - Ilan Pappe
The Gaza Strip: The Political Economy of De-development - Sara Roy
10 Myths About Israel - Ilan Pappe (summery)
The existence of Hamas, and any armed resistance movement, is directly due to the decades of violence experienced daily under the permanent occupation, the Apartheid State, of Israel. It’s impossible to understand their existence if you don’t understand the lived experience and material conditions they are forced to live under. There is no such thing as a perfect victim when it comes to anti-Colonialist resistance, not for the Vietcong, the IRA, or the ANC either. Can you condemn the violence of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising in the same way as the violence of the Warsaw Ghetto?
In the Shadow of the Holocaust by Masha Gessen, the situation in Gaza is compared to the Warsaw Ghettos. The comparison was also made by a Palestinian poet who was later killed by an Israeli airstrike. Adi Callai has also written on the parallels in his article The Gaza Ghetto Uprising and expanded upon in his corresponding video
I love that you posted this, but you’re wasting your time feeding a known troll.
It is important to push back against Zionist trolls, not for the sake of the troll, but for the audience in the conversation.
It’s honestly more for the many more who are just browsing. Although there have been a few that genuinely weren’t aware and changed their mind. But yeah, there are also plenty who are simply trolls and completely dehumanize Palestinians if not all Arabs and Muslims. I’ve got that troll tagged as a Zionist now
Whatever dude, Lemmy is way too far left for me to be arguing at this point. I don’t approve of genocide on either side and I’m leaving it at that. I’m not gonna win or even remotely get anywhere so I’ll stop wasting everyone’s time. It’s not productive which is the entire point of having an argument.
Well you’re arguing off of misinformation. I provided sources for you to learn about the conflict if you are actually interested. I don’t care to argue. You have many resources available and I have even more, such as documentaries. But the books I referenced have the best depth of knowledge about the conflict
I haven’t read the sources you posted yet, I’ve been arguing entirely with the content of your messages as reading the sources in the middle of an argument is too time consuming, however I will go read them just to see if it changes my world view. That is the point of all this. Anyway, cheers (I am not trolling for what it’s worth, if you’d rather label me an idiot then feel free to do so)
Why is it that Arabs live peacefully in Israel yet a Jew steps foot in Palestine and gets killed. Also…just throwing this out there but you should really listen to some of the talks given by Mosab Hassan Yousef, they are incredibly eye opening.
That’s completely delusional when we’re talking about Israel, an Apartheid State, committing genocide on the native population it has occupied for generations. I suggest you read any of the books listed or read any of the sources linked, because you’re either unaware of the reality of the situation or have completely dehumanized Palestinian people.
After the Nakba the Palestinians within now Israel that survived the ethnic cleansing were under the draconic Israel Martial Law and Defence (Emergency) Regulations, which we’re then practiced in the occupied territories instead after 1967. Even then, Arab Israelis continued to be second class citizens for many reasons including Education (2001 report)
This second class citizenship has only gotten worse. The article goes into a few more examples of how they are second class citizens, especially when it comes to censorship and a lack of civil rights. White very terrible, it’s nothing compared to the lack of human rights in the West Bank or the ongoing genocide in Gaza.
Ethnic Cleansing is fundamental to Zionism
Settlements and Occupation
Israel justifies the settlements and military bases in the West Bank in the name of Security. However, the reality of the settlements on-the-ground has been the cause of violent resistance and a significant obstacle to peace, as it has been for decades.
This type of settlement, where the native population gets ‘Transferred’ to make room for the settlers, is a long standing practice.
The mass ethnic cleansing campaign of 1948:
Further, declassified Israeli documents show that the Occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip were deliberately planned before being executed in 1967:
While the peace process was exploited to continue de-facto annexation of the West Bank via Settlements
The settlements are maintained through a violent apartheid that routinely employs violence towards Palestinians and denies human rights like water access, civil rights, etc. This kind of control gives rise to violent resistance to the Apartheid occupation, jeopardizing the safety of Israeli civilians.
Apartheid Evidence
Amnesty Report
Human Rights Watch Report
B’TSelem Report with quick Explainer
Visualizing the Ethnic Cleansing
Why is it you lie? most Arabs do not live peacefully in Israel. They are arrested and assaulted frequently. Also history show’s it’s the Israeli feet in Palestine that result in tens of thousands of dead Palestinian men, women, and children.
…right…so 20% of the Israeli population is Arab…and they get arrested and assaulted on the daily. That’s a fairly substantial percentage for a minority population, seems unlikely for the percentage to both be that high and for them to be treated so poorly and oppressed so throughly especially when they could just defect to Palestine. Additionally Israel has an 18% Islamic population when broken down by religion. Look at Palestine meanwhile, 99% Islamic, 100% Arab…the numbers don’t lie, one of them is definitely more tolerant of diversity than the other.
Holy shit, I didn’t know the neo nazi talking points made the loop to zionism already. You gonna tell me about how halal meat is a conspiracy next?
You’re literally a meme.
https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/despite-being-only-13-percent-of-the-population
What was the capital of Israel in 1896?
2 can play that game, it really isn’t productive. Where was Israel located in 900BCE?
Where was Israel located in 150,00BCE?
Anyone trying to claim a connection to nearly 3,000 years back is utterly insane. You might as well go invade Africa as it was home at one point too, right?
I said it was counterproductive for a reason