Honestly, if the idea of no trials don’t bother you, there are plenty more reminders why YOU shouldn’t preorder.
I think it’s an age thing a lot of times. It’s like telling my kids to brush their teeth because of my experiences with dental, or you can plug any example like that.
I can tell kids not to preorder all I want. They just haven’t had the opportunity to be burned as many times as we have yet.
I think a lot of gamers just don’t care enough too. I know so many people that buy a game on release, play it for a few hours, and then drop it. Even AAA titles that are actually good.
Steam achievements kinda confirm that as well, there is a fair bit of drop-off on even the most popular games.
It made some sense when they came in physical format and there was a real risk of a highly sought game selling out. Nowadays they have put worthless digital incentives on preorders and they can’t possibly run out.
It didn’t make sense to me that people are pre-ordering digital copies at first too, then I remember mtx and streamers which didn’t exist back then.
It’s the boiling frog syndrome. Gradual implementation of predatory monetization practices like mtx and gachas have made us grown numb to being treated like cash cows for unfinished products.
The latest generation of gamers probably see this as a norm. It’s up to us oldies to remind them about the good ol’ days when you only pay once for finished products.
I mean, I usually buy physical and sometimes they do run out. Metroid prime remastered for instance was a pain to get. Granted it’s probably not the norm but it happens.
This right here. There will always be a steady supply of new gamers who don’t know better.
I think it’s an age thing a lot of times.
I don’t have numbers but I bet that a lot of people who preorder aren’t kids but adults with a proper income. Kids as a group don’t have the income to uphold the current presale figures, that’s done by working adults who can afford to preorder a game and take the not so small risk that it’s utterly shit.
If I want I could preoder a lot of games that come out this year without having to worry about the waste of money to much. I doubt that any regular kid can do that.
This isn’t a kids thing, we’ve been pre-ordering games since before today’s kids were born
yeah, when we were kids ourselves. But after getting burned we stopped.
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I did a quick search and couldn’t find anything that breaks down by age sadly. I really hope someone has the stats cause it would be fascinating to see.
I don’t have the figures either but when I think which age group could have the money to actually preorder a game on a whim without knowing if it will be good, then it really isn’t kids but working adults.
Could you share what you’ve found, please? What other category breaks are there?
The only thing I could find was a statista link that claims to show US gamer’s proclivities toward preordering in 2016 based on a survey of 1560 people (https://www.statista.com/statistics/662626/game-pre-order-frequency-us-gamers/)
Everything other result seemed to be random news articles about topics tangentially related to preordering video games.
I just saw this video the other day, now it’s just all reminders that I’ve aged out.
It’s funny when you get older how much you realize experience is what drives behavior. You can tell a child 100 times about something, but until they experience it themselves, your warnings more often than not will fall on deaf ears.
Hey it’s Lemmy, so I will happily use this opportunity to blame rich people as well. I know people doing very well for themselves, who constantly, say, “yeah it sucks, but I’ve got the money and it doesn’t hurt me so who cares?”
Because they’re so completely unable to to think of ANYONE else in a different situation, or even remember their younger selves, that they will continue to incentivize predatory behavior because “fuck you, I got mine”, and they’re such huge pieces of self involved shit that they won’t delay their gratification for a split second to help out an entire industry’s consumers.
If that sound harsh, it’s been a shit day full of people just like that; decide on your own if it applies here.
I don’t pre-order games nor do I really buy any games new.
I mean why should I when I can buy complete version of the game for like 10-20 bucks 1-3 years later. Honestly I’ve simply discarded the idea of being consumer and shifted to thinking myself as customer instead. Its not my job to support the developers and keep their studios afloat its their job by making good games that are actually worth their price tag.
I already have backlog of games that would take years clear thanks to steam sales, playstation plus and all sorts of bundle offers. I am in no hurry to buy new games and I can easily wait for the developers to actually finish the game and buy the GOTY/Ultimate/Definite edition that includes most if not all the expansions and dlc for a discounted price.
As for free 2 play and live service games I simply don’t have the time and interest to play those. If I ever make an exception to this then I’ll be using only default skins/cosmetics, no gatcha and ignoring the battle pass completely.
Its not my job to support the developers and keep their studios afloat its their job by making good games that are actually worth their price tag.
That’s fine and all, but it goes both ways. If you’re gonna wait years to maybe buy their game, then they’re not going to cater to what you want.
There’s a middle ground imo. If I love a certain type of game, I’m gonna buy it relatively new to show my support. If you don’t do that, then you’re essentially a bottom of the barrel afterthought that the market simply won’t cater to.
I don’t view myself as some sort of unique snowflake that has somehow developer some sort of unique and refined taste in video games. I also belong to the most catered majority in video game industry which is white heterosexual men in their 30’s. Honestly it would probably be better if the industry would cater less to my interests as I feel beyond spoiled with choice already.
If you want to support some independent gaming studio with handful of passionate developers making niche games of great quality without relying on dark patterns then please do so. But don’t lie to yourself about these bigger corporations as all they really care about generating profits for their shareholders.
All that literally every business that has ever existed cares about is profits. Businesses aren’t charities. People don’t work for free.
All that literally every business that has ever existed cares about is profits. Businesses aren’t charities. People don’t work for free.
Well one thing related to profits that businesses care about above all else is cost effiency. In market economy if a produt or service can be made more cheaply and more efficiently without employing any people then there’s no incentive to keep people employed.
There’s also quite a difference in some small business with handful of employees that is content with just making some money to keep roof over their heads, food on the table and cover the cost of other necessities compared to some huge multinational corporation where most money goes pretty much everywhere but the developers like to fund the already lavish lifestyles of the filthy rich, tax havens and developing the next get set of dark patterns to leech even more money from customers.
There is no small business on this planet that would not accept higher profits with no costs to them or disruption in their customer base.
Sure and almost all large corporations where small businesses at first until the grew to their current size. The problems usually arise when they hit a wall with their growth and have to start looking for more ways to grow. Often this happens by buying off the competition and eventually enshittification or something like it.
This is not always the chase and there are quite a few independent developers that just spend those profits to make new better games or just keep improving their one successful title.
Hyvin sanottu!
I second this. I did stop buying games as soon as possible when I had a child.It was like a 2 years gap in my life. I realised it was like living in a shifted timelapse :)
Now I only play 2 yo games, same for movies and series… It means I only keeps top quality stuff !
when I can buy complete version of the game for like 10-20 bucks 1-3 years later
…or, for like 1-3 bucks 10-20 years later.
Life is short, but not that short.
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FF16 wasn’t preordered as much as they wanted. Then when the game turned out to be okay, people bought it (and it had a demo). It was a hit.
Yeah, I love Final Fantasy. But I wasn’t very hyped for it. I bought it after I played the demo.
I bought it after the demo, and while it definitely hit those highs again, the demo didn’t show just how low some of those lows would be. I made it about 60% though the game before abandoning it out boredom. While a demo is great, it is important to remember you’re likely getting a vertical slice of some of the best bits.
The demo really made me want to get it and actually caused me to preorder. I wasn’t even that excited about it until the demo. Once I turned it on and heard the music that instantly transported me to final fantasy, I was sold. Wound up shelving Diablo until I finish the story for final fantasy. It’s long and I’ve loved every moment. The side quests, while being typically fetch quests, have great stories in them that really build on the world.
Sorry, this was supposed to be about preordering and turned into me gushing about final fantasy.
I was super happy for that demo. For me it let me know I wouldn’t enjoy it, so I saved some money.
I miss the age of videogame demos, it feels like nothing but a distant memory now. And the only reason companies let people play their broken betas now is to gauge excitement for their games and fix any serious game breaking bugs.
Eh.
On the flip side, back in the day, a lot of people bought a lot of crappy games based on nothing more than what the cover art on the box showed. The only source of info was video game magazines, and that applied only to new releases and only certain games.
Now upon release you can look up dozens of detailed reviews, even video reviews. You can watch full play through a on YouTube. You can ask for opinions in social media.
The amount of information you have to figure out if this game is for you is insane compared to before.
Depends really. Nowadays publishers push out fake CGI marketing trailers and paid reviews to premptively muddy those information sources long before release. Same goes for social media (not that they were ever reliably accurate or objective anyway). There are even promises of DLC roadmaps that never materialise such as the OW2 story mode.
By the time actual independent reviewers have their embargoes lifted, the preorder sales window has closed and it wouldn’t make much difference to those who already sunk money into the game. Those waiting in vain for DLC and patches are merely sacrificing their refund window.
That’s true. I understand.
I’m also not a fan of the DLC and change to video game design based on such payouts.
But even then, even with fake reviews, young gamers are completely spoiled with information compared to the black hole that existed in the 80s and 90s. I’m not sure how people argue otherwise.
The fact that I can go on my phone, jump on YouTube, and watch a play through is incredible. When I was young, I had to make decisions based on what the box art looked like ffs.
I miss the age of videogame demos
Fuck the corps. That’s what piracy is for.
Pirating big games is probably morally fine. Pirating indie games is shitty, like stealing from a local business.
He is not talking about actual piracy though. Piracy for try-before-you-buy’s sake is even more morally fine.
We may just have very different tastes in gaming, but there’s really no shortage of solid game demos out there, they’re just usually for the indie stuff.
Yeah, I mentioned that to another person, Steam Next Fest was great this year, I got to try out a bunch of awesome games. But like if we’re talking triple A, or even just games on consoles demos are just a resource sink for a lot of these companies and don’t exist. When there’s a demo there’s usually a lot of marketing push behind it.
Honestly it’s been more incentive for me to move away from the AAA stuff and lean way more indie. They have demos, deep sales, and they make an effort to engage with the community. It is a bummer the lack of demos available on consoles though.
for some reason indie games still seem to have demos semi-often, especially if you check their itch.io pages.
I miss the age of videogame demos, it feels like nothing but a distant memory now.
No it isn’t! With Steam you can try most (if not every) game for 2h and return it if you didn’t like it.
That’s not a demo, that’s a return policy. Plus, in most cases you don’t get a good feel of a game in the first 2 hours of the game. A demo is a snippet of the game made specifically to let people get accustomed to most of the mechanics in a game, something that isn’t usually present in the first two hours.
You could’ve easily said Steam Next Fest and I would’ve agreed with you. Indie devs are the only ones who seem to care about their players these days.
I miss the days of game demos
Steam’s Next fest has brought back some demos on PC. You might not get a demo for a big IP, but you can try lots of smaller dev games without having to buy first.
I saw the rise of more demos in the store but didn’t know it’s a thing steam promoted or started. Nice.
I’ve noticed that! A lot of smaller games/indie titles offer demos or some kind of limited time trial. It’s almost like the people making those games get me 🥹
I remember playing Destiny’s Alpha version when I was invited to it. It was a fun experience but sucked when the game was mostly a let down for the first year or so.
I’ve never understood the concept of pre ordering digital content, it’s not going to run out of stock. And why pay extra for a few graphical items that don’t change the way the game plays?
Also, surely digital games would be cheaper because there’s no physical product to send to the customer? But there you go. Base copy of Diablo 4 is £70!! Wow!
Initially pre orders made sense back when physical media was the only way to get games. Nowadays though, you are absolutely right. Digital games have no right to cost around the price as a physical product (especially when even that physical product doesn’t even have a cool manual and its just an empty plastic box with a disc in it).
I know right. What’s the point of these new games coming with beautiful steel books but no discs.
I can see why because the games are so big, there’s no point sticking a bit of it on a disc. That’s why physical media is becoming redundant. All these games require patches to run and they won’t be around for ever. Not even Switch games are complete on cartridge these days.
The reason, or at least part of it, is the retail stores themselves. They didn’t want online stores to be a better option where customers could save money, so they made a deal with a bunch of the publishers that they can’t sell their games online for cheaper than the physical copies in retail stores or the stores wouldn’t carry them.
I’m not sure how much longer that deal will last, though the publishers probably aren’t in any rush to get rid of it since they make better margins on their online sales because of it (and can say “not our fault!” if people complain). But retail stores will be less and less relevant over time I think and eventually someone will want the ability to undercut other AAA games and steal a bunch of market share. Or cut out the whole physical media supply chain entirely.
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Having something tangible can have perks. Steam bans you. Thousands lost. Online service shuts down. Games lost. I can still fire up this here super Nintendo… And nobody can tell me when it’s going to shut down and stop working.
One of the reasons I prefer to buy on gog. I can just save all my purchases to an external hard drive
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Im not one to be too hung up on the cost of games. They have stayed relatively stagnant for years and have undoubtedly grown in complexity and with that, staffing requirements. I mean Halo: Combat Evolved was $50 dollars from release well into 2003 and this was before internet based multiplayer games on console were really all that common.
So given how much costs have increased for other items…A 70-80 dollar game isnt necessarily outrageous. Especially given the amount of time some will play said games. 200 is a different story.
Im also not against paid methods to skip a grind. Some people have time to do repetitive tasks in games and may even get joy out of it. Others dont have that kind of time, so a paid option isnt necessarily out of bounds for me. Personally I get an hour or so a night to play, whereas most kids can get 6-8 hours a DAY… But my time is worth money, much more so than a kid, so if it costs me another 20 bucks to skip 8-10 hours of grind and be on an equal playing field, im all for that.
You’ve reminded me of when Battlefield: Bad Company was first released on Xbox360 (and maybe PS3, I don’t remember) EA released a more expensive gold steelbook edition where everything was unlocked from from the start with an included code.
I vaguely recall it being a bit dramatic too. But that’s a great example.
In BF games weapons and attachments are behind some weird lock system. So in bf3 or bf4 here’s me getting my 1 hour a night unlocking a basic scope or playing with iron sights going against kids/young adults that have gotten my weekly leveling dont in a single session and just blasting me with IR scopes telling me to “git gud”. And I don’t even have the “non reflective” uniform yet thst counters it so I’m basically very easy to see.
That’s…not fun. Thus I won’t buy the game, especially with the recent chnages we’re team mechanics don’t matter. And like it or not, a large swath of people that play games are normal working class adults with absolutely normal lives.
You’ve reminded me of when Battlefield: Bad Company was first released on Xbox360 (and maybe PS3, I don’t remember) EA released a more expensive gold steelbook edition where everything was unlocked from from the start with an included code.
I agree about the content never running out. I disagree that the content isn’t worth more though. The quality is definitely getting up there and the design teams are grilled while getting ripped off. The corruption of Capitalism has rotted your brain. it is your choice to take the DLC. It shouldn’t be your choice to piss on slave driven developers. not ok.
I’m not pissing on DLC, that content can be fantastic additions to already great games. What I find pointless are the pre order bonuses when it’s just a fancy red coat when the base game comes with a blue one.
You literally bagged on a game for being $70 for full cost. But now you’re saying it’s how it’s marketed? Pick an argument. Stick to it.
Developer here - currently indie but was in the machine at one point. Cold hard fact is that demos hurt sales for AAA games, and pre-orders get cash in the door today to keep the lights on. With millions and years invested, they must hedge and limit risk as hard and as quickly as possible.
The fact that you can “pre-buy” a digital game is insane to me!
Like what’s the point! You still can’t play it until it comes out!
And games these days are digital copies. It’s not like the supply is limited.
Last time I pre-ordered a game was Diablo 3. I could choose a hard copy for RSP or a digital copy for an extra “convenience fee”. As if that wasn’t ridiculous enogh, I ordered the hard copy and on release day, they told me that I was on a queue since so many people pre-ordered and they ran out of copies.
I tried to cancel my pre-order and these actual scumbags told me, I couldn’t cancel until I received my copy. Pristine customer support, I really felt they did everything to accomodate my needs. So, I contacted Actiblizz to let them know about the practices of their “official reseller” and the next day, my pre-order was canceled and my money was being wired back.
Also the game was trash, but that’s besides the point.
Diablo 3 was also the last game I pre-ordered. I took the day off work on release day, had the game downloaded, and spent the next 14 hours on an error screen because their servers were overloaded for an always online SINGLE PLAYER GAME!
Fucking bullshit.
I may be mistaken but isn’t Diablo 4 also force online?
It is tragically.
You definitely dodged a bullet, albeit you have to jump through hoops and headaches. Your scenario is one of many why preordering isn’t a good thing, especially with an infinite digital product.
Furthermore, it parallels the recent talk around lemmy how some companies are making it hard to cancel subscriptions.
All of it treads a soft “lock-in” policy that may turn into a hard “lock-in” to some who are not as assertive as you. I know some people would just “let it go” in the spirit of “avoiding confrontation”.
Worst is, “buying” digital games off a store/launcher doesn’t mean you own it.
You can move your games to a different folder, the storefront won’t be able to remove them. But that requires you to download all your games and keep them stored somewhere.
I have a few games I do that with.
Technically you didn’t own the games you bought on physical media, either.
But you own the physical media it’s on, meaning the “license” to own it can be traded, sold, etc.
I said “technically”. What more do you want from me?
If it allows you to pre-download it so you can play as soon as it’s available it makes some sense.
That’s what I thought. But after pre-ordering a game recently, when I went to launch, the process of unpacking/unencrypting took at least as long as downloading the thing from scratch.
So if you’ve a good internet connection and a mid cpu like me, pre-downloading is not an advantage.
The only situation I can think of where it makes sense is where you have the money now, and don’t think you’ll have the will power to not waste it before release day.
…which, if you’re a teen/young person, I could totally see that being a legitimate concern.
Don’t they often not charge you until the game is delivered (or in the case of digital, unlocked)?
Beta’s used to be free and would actually have an impact on the game getting fixed before shipping out
I made a flow chart for this ages ago…
Will it be legitimately hard to find? (Think Steel Battalion on Xbox.) No? Do not pre-order.
Do you get anything for pre-ordering? No? Do not pre-order.
Cosmetics only? Yes? Do not pre-order.
Is it from a developer with an established track record? No? Do not pre-order.
Is that established track record full of buggy launches (Bethesda)? Yes? Do not pre-order.
Online only? Yes? Do not pre-order.
So… Do not preorder?
FFXVI would pass, Spider-Man 2
Fail at the first step. Both are being produced in the millions, not hard to find.
To be fair I wait until after release to pick-up titles, will get FFXVI this weekend. Such a small cost, the risk is fine vs people spending thousands on other hobbies.
FF16 was the first game I preordered in over a decade, and even then I only preordered it after I played the free demo and thoroughly enjoyed it.
Not sure how you got that from that message, there’s some games that would definitely qualify under this flow chart.
Don’t encourage devs to gate content behind pre order exclusives. Day 1 DLC used to be seen for what it was: content that should be in the base game.
Well yeah but half the fun of Bethesda games is their bugs lol
It’s all fun and games until your launch day install looks like this:
I’ve been hearing this since 2010. Nothing is going to change.
EA Sports 2024 is going to come out, it’s going to have 40,000 mixed reviews.
Yeah, the whole no pre-ordering thing is simply just a personal moral thing. Any amount of people who pledge not to are massively outnumbered by the vast majority of gamers who simply do not care. This simply doesn’t matter anymore.
It’s not a moral thing at all. Do you know why publishers want people to pre-order games? It’s not like people didn’t buy games before pre-ordering, but now it’s just to create a marketing funnel and to sell your personal data. Worried that you won’t be able to pick up a copy of Starfield? Don’t be. There will be millions of copies.
No, its because of economics. Cash now is always worth more than cash later. It is better to be able to take any money and invest it now so you can get a return. Its the same reason companies want you to put money on your account or buy giftcards.
Usually games don’t go up in price between when preorders open and the final sale price. So taking inflation into account, games are technically cheaper at point of sale than when you preordered. Games aren’t an investment vehicle, nor do they guarantee any monetary value for the consumer. They aren’t investments.
You misunderstood my point completely. Someone selling anything has an incentive to be paid as soon as possible, not only because of inflation but because they can reinvest it. Someone buying a product likewise has the inverse where they have an incentive to pay as late as possible. But the volumes are obviously different, a game developer may gain millions in early liquidity because of preorders but the individual customer only loses $60-$70. This is why the developers push for pre-orders. Money now is worth more than money later.
Okay. And how is that good for consumers at all?
It’s not, I was just explaining the developers motivation
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Why did you pre-order it? There are tons of copies available.
I also stopped trying. It’s impossible to have a conversation with absolutely everyone that plays games to get them to stop pre-ordering.
Gamers are also some of the worst type of people (sorry, just being honest here). They generally have very little self control and it’s almost impossible to get them to change their minds or change their habits.
I can only change my own behaviors and stop getting fucked by these AAA publishers. Once you realize that it’s ok to wait a week or so to see if the game is good, life gets much better.
I gave up on that. I just don’t care anymore. No, that’s not true. I actually care somewhat.
People preorder, game comes out, game is shit at launch, they get into a furious rage online, I chuckle.
Financially, preorders without a “preorder bonus” are a zero interest loan to the developer. Preorders with the “preorder bonus” are a loan with the bonus as interest. Even if the game were guaranteed to be good, you could most likely be doing something better with the money until it comes out. Since the game is not guaranteed to be good, it is a risky loan as well. Without any of the protections you get when you make an actual loan.
I pre-ordered baldurs gate 3 after playing the developers previous game divinity original sin 2 and hearing a rather large amount of praise for the content available in the early access.
It’s something I wouldn’t regularly do but in their short line of recent games Larian studios have left a very good impression on me and I trust them individually.
My money, my choice. Everyone saying otherwise can eat a bag of dicks. I’ll preorder for bonuses if a game looks good, and I’ll refund that purchase if it releases in a garbage state.
I must remeber the history of gaming completely differently. Noone was demanding trials. Majority of people went to a store, looked at box art, made a purchase based on the art and description on the back. Plenty of stinkers in the mix.
Trails would be nice sure, not going to deny that. But I fail to see how pre-ordering is linked to no trials lol.
The concept of needing to pre-order a digital asset is already dumb as fuck. It won’t run out of stock or anything. That should be the reason to stop pre-orders, not due to a lack of arbitrary trails. Only reason I do it os the bonues or early access/head starts.
Nobody, not once, has said ‘it is not your choice’. This always gets brought up like that’s what the argument is. Make the stupid choice all you want. Be our guest. What we’re saying is “if you pre-order this game, you have zero right to: complain about its content for ANY reason, bitch about release delays, or complain about the constant degradation in release quality of ALL games (because like it or not you’re the reason why this happens)”. Thing is you won’t though will you? You’ll be first to give a bad review saying ‘I got early access and the quality is garbage!’.
Let me guess though, you’ll be like “muh, my money, my right to complain about what I want” because taking responsibility for the inevitable consequences of ones actions is for people with actual impulse-control.
You sure make a ton of assumptions buddy.
I have every right to complain about whatever I want, whenever I want, and yes i can spend my money on whatever i want however i want. Don’t like it, take your shit and fuck off little man.
You miss the entire statement of me refunding it if it’s bad? I specifically pay in a manner that allows me to refund or even charge back at will, which impacts the seller equally. How about the point about pre-orders being dumb overall, thats literallyin agreement? Or the referencing of the specifics around pre-orders = no more trials, as stated in the OP.
Now I’m just gonna stoop to your shit brain level and assume youre a broke ass child who spends money they can’t afford to lose on non-essetinal items, like video games for example.
The ways to force a refund on a preorder are much reduced over that of straight purchasing the game after release. Pay by Credit Card too far in advance? Request declined. And, considering you already proved most my assumptions correct (namely ‘lack of impulse control’, and ‘muh, my money my right to be a bitch’) already I’ll add another one. You won’t refund a bad product even with the only assured window you get (the small warrantee period you get from things like Steam ie: 2hours) for 2 reasons: 1) you’re a sucker for the BS appeals to patience and tolerance that marketing always puts out when there are ‘unforseen, lul, issues with development’, and 2) you’re so starved for anything to distract you from your miserable life you’ll accept getting your feces pushed in by game companies for the meagre hits of dopamine you get from your pre-purchase rewards.
Here’s the deal: your life is already so bad I’ll give you permission to make the selfish, impulsive purchase decision only because I’d rather you ruin the game industry than take out your issues on real people in your life (if you have any left).
I was selling countless pre-orders at retail going back to 2001. I don’t know when this mythical time would have been either.
Ultimately, the vast majority of people making pre-orders aren’t here, on reddit, or any gaming community. And frankly, with the rate at which physical print runs are shrinking, people are going to find they will need to pre-order if they want a physical copy of anything not AAA.
Hey, fair enough. It is your money. If you see value, go for it. I have trouble seeing value because 9 times out of 10, preorder bonuses are like skins for mp or something else I care little about. But I just have a problem with data collection and selling it to 3rd parties.
Yep people see value in things differently, which is fine by me. I also disagree with the problem of mass data collection farming then selling to 3rd parties.
