It really is a question of definition. When you define it like most people think of it, that there was an alternate possibility in which they had not made the decision, then yes, the concept doesn’t make sense.
But a more useful definition might just be the ability to act according to one’s own desires, a common stance held by many compatibilists, which corresponds quite closely to what people are actually referring to when they speak of “free will”.
But “desires” derive from the things happening around us, inside of us, in the past of us or in the genes of us.
It’s just shoving an additional layer into the argumentation, thinking it somehow doesn’t need to be explored, which is a logical fallacy.
Nobody is saying that desires are not based on anything, that would be quite silly. It’s just that if you redefine free will in terms of desire instead of some metaphysical independence you might get a more useful definition.
Not quite, agency is to what degree someone acts to their own “moral judgement” (an unuseful term in my opinion, since it is a social construct), rather than desires.
The opposite of determinism is called metaphysical libertarianism iirc.
The definition of free will is obviously very tricky even among compatibilists, and depending on who you ask you will get very different answers. But usually yes, there are no absolutes, as there are always many factors involved in making decisions, and personal interests (however you might define them) will be different proportions of that.
Yeah, alright, I get what you’re saying. Most people don’t have as clear/isolated of a definition of Free Will as those who strongly oppose it anyways, so we could just start ignoring the ‘Free’ and pretend nothing happened. I guess, I can accept that being a strategy.
However, personally, I feel like humanity does need to be bonked with the fact, it does not have Free Will, because we’re behaving like absolute buffoons, because of it.
For example, many people believe Free Will makes us different from animals and we should apply different morals, when we’re not. And it makes us feel like we’re somehow ultra special and need to be billionaires or whatever, when it would be less of a waste of money, if we shared with others instead.
Obviously, a massive amount of our modern moral understanding and laws and such, foot on Free Will. It will be a painful bonk. But yeah, I don’t think, continuing unbonked is a valid option either, not when we’re so convinced that we’re doing things correctly…
Yes, I do agree that the world could do with some more humility in its worldviews. Oh, if people could just understand that they’re nothing beyond the physical, that movement of time makes no sense or that knowledge is impossible (see Münchhausen trilemma)… when you take a stap back, so many of today’s struggles, both verbal and physical, suddenly appear completely nonsensical.
But you must realise that the vast majority of the world population still believes in a religion that puts themselves at the centre, and that it can be clearly seen that people, upon being challenged, just cling harder to their egocentric worldview. Worldviews, being a social phenomenon, are formed after what people want to believe, and don’t have to be restrained much by reality, however logical your argument is.
And, I mean, the truth is inevitably nearing us because of the progress of science. So don’t push your ideas too hard; faster, more forced change is just going to create even more tension than there already is, since people who believe feel more and more challenged and more and more obliged to fight back through dangerous extremism.
It really is a question of definition. When you define it like most people think of it, that there was an alternate possibility in which they had not made the decision, then yes, the concept doesn’t make sense.
But a more useful definition might just be the ability to act according to one’s own desires, a common stance held by many compatibilists, which corresponds quite closely to what people are actually referring to when they speak of “free will”.
Edit: more info here: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/compatibilism/
But “desires” derive from the things happening around us, inside of us, in the past of us or in the genes of us.
It’s just shoving an additional layer into the argumentation, thinking it somehow doesn’t need to be explored, which is a logical fallacy.
Nobody is saying that desires are not based on anything, that would be quite silly. It’s just that if you redefine free will in terms of desire instead of some metaphysical independence you might get a more useful definition.
deleted by creator
Not quite, agency is to what degree someone acts to their own “moral judgement” (an unuseful term in my opinion, since it is a social construct), rather than desires.
deleted by creator
The opposite of determinism is called metaphysical libertarianism iirc.
The definition of free will is obviously very tricky even among compatibilists, and depending on who you ask you will get very different answers. But usually yes, there are no absolutes, as there are always many factors involved in making decisions, and personal interests (however you might define them) will be different proportions of that.
deleted by creator
Yeah, alright, I get what you’re saying. Most people don’t have as clear/isolated of a definition of Free Will as those who strongly oppose it anyways, so we could just start ignoring the ‘Free’ and pretend nothing happened. I guess, I can accept that being a strategy.
However, personally, I feel like humanity does need to be bonked with the fact, it does not have Free Will, because we’re behaving like absolute buffoons, because of it.
For example, many people believe Free Will makes us different from animals and we should apply different morals, when we’re not. And it makes us feel like we’re somehow ultra special and need to be billionaires or whatever, when it would be less of a waste of money, if we shared with others instead.
Obviously, a massive amount of our modern moral understanding and laws and such, foot on Free Will. It will be a painful bonk. But yeah, I don’t think, continuing unbonked is a valid option either, not when we’re so convinced that we’re doing things correctly…
Yes, I do agree that the world could do with some more humility in its worldviews. Oh, if people could just understand that they’re nothing beyond the physical, that movement of time makes no sense or that knowledge is impossible (see Münchhausen trilemma)… when you take a stap back, so many of today’s struggles, both verbal and physical, suddenly appear completely nonsensical.
But you must realise that the vast majority of the world population still believes in a religion that puts themselves at the centre, and that it can be clearly seen that people, upon being challenged, just cling harder to their egocentric worldview. Worldviews, being a social phenomenon, are formed after what people want to believe, and don’t have to be restrained much by reality, however logical your argument is.
And, I mean, the truth is inevitably nearing us because of the progress of science. So don’t push your ideas too hard; faster, more forced change is just going to create even more tension than there already is, since people who believe feel more and more challenged and more and more obliged to fight back through dangerous extremism.