The poll found 50% of Democrats approve of how Biden has navigated the conflict while 46% disapprove ā€” and the two groups diverge substantially in their views of U.S. support for Israel. Bidenā€™s support on the issue among Democrats is down slightly from August, as an AP-NORC poll conducted then found that 57% of Democrats approved of his handling of the conflict and 40% disapproved.

  • RedditReject@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    I love how the headline sounds so negative, and yet looking at the Numbers they could have easily just said ā€œmore Democrats approve of his handling of the crisisā€.

    • SkepticalButOpenMinded@lemmy.ca
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      1 year ago

      I mean, almost half the members of his own party disagree with him, not the nation as a whole. If this doesnā€™t go away, it is not good news.

      The old adage come to mind that, ā€œThe left fall in love, and the right fall in line.ā€ The right will more reliably vote for ā€œtheir guyā€, but Iā€™ve seen so many losses on the left because of disenchantment.

      • Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        Thatā€™s part of the problem, though: the left never fell in love with him. He got elected by a small margin in a few key states similar to that of Trump 2016 mainly due to not being Trump rather than any merit of his own.

        It might not work a second time since voters have ridiculously short memories and ā€œnot the other oneā€ tactics are much less effective for incumbents.

          • fosforus@sopuli.xyz
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            1 year ago

            The amazing thing is that the anti-Trump ticket should be much stronger now than it was then. Why the fuck is it not? After all, the previous time USA voted, Trump hadnā€™t yet tried to overturn a presidential vote.

            • xerazal
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              1 year ago

              Well he promised a lot and hasnā€™t delivered on it. For example, he hasnā€™t even mentioned a public option since the election. His handling of the student loan debt thing seems like heā€™s purposely dragging his feet, and the latest report I heard about that makes it sound like heā€™s trying to cut back even further.

              He hasnā€™t been as bad as I thought he would be, heā€™s definitely the most pro-union person of my lifetime at least, but that doesnā€™t take away that some of the key campaign promises that he made he either hasnā€™t delivered on, hasnā€™t seemed to try to deliver on, or actively seems like he doesnā€™t want to.

              • Thunderbird4@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                Dragging his feet on student loans? I feel like thatā€™s the only campaign promise heā€™s been making a consistent effort on. He literally got shot down by the Supreme Court and has kept trying different strategies. The only times heā€™s reduced the scope of the proposed relief is once heā€™s been blocked at every turn.

                Even as someone with student loans, Iā€™ve almost been frustrated that heā€™s been putting as much effort as he has into student loan relief while bigger issues see no action.

            • abraxas@sh.itjust.works
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              1 year ago

              Voters are shortsighted. I still think Biden has an edge in 24, but people have quickly forgotten exactly what a disaster Trump was and have started saying ā€œat least he did somethingā€.

              All because the press finds most of Bidenā€™s successful-but-moderate presidency to be too boring to headline. Trump was in the headlines 5 days a week during his presidency. And for some people no press is bad press.

        • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Not to mention some key progressive campaign promises have not materialized or were straight up broken.

          • abraxas@sh.itjust.works
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            1 year ago

            Which ones? The ones I followed, he invested more political capital in than I ever expected.

            EDIT: My own research, looks like the big one is healthcare. Heā€™s constantly talking about it and constantly ā€œdoing something behind closed doorsā€ about it, but nothing has manifested yet. I wonder if itā€™s because it would never pass the current congress, or if thereā€™s bigger (or more dishonest) reasons.

      • abraxas@sh.itjust.works
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        1 year ago

        At this point, thereā€™s not many things that more than half of Democrats agree on. Weā€™re the entire political spectrum of ā€œeverything that isnā€™t fascistā€.

        • SkepticalButOpenMinded@lemmy.ca
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          1 year ago

          Yeah thereā€™s more intellectual diversity on the democratic side. When I meet a right winger, it feels like I know what 90% of their opinions are going to be. Whereas Dems have everyone from pro-corporate neo-liberals to European style lefties.

          That said, I doubt thereā€™s ā€œnot many things that more than half of Democrats agree on.ā€ Abortion rights, Trump being guilty, taxing the rich, universal healthcare, climate change, protecting voting rights, etc. enjoy overwhelming agreement. As in 70-90%.

          Thereā€™s disagreement too of course: defunding the police, trans rights, reparationsā€¦ but even these have 60-70%+ support amongst Dems.

          I honestly canā€™t think of any other topic that Democrats disagree with each other as strongly about.

          • abraxas@sh.itjust.works
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            1 year ago

            Fair enough. Perhaps my take was slightly hyperbolic.

            Gun control is a great example of something Democrats canā€™t agree on. We have gun-grabbers, background-checkers, and even a few NRA-hawks. Details on Healthcare. Reparations are a 50/50, too. The thing in all of those, I think, is that weā€™re willing to compromise.

            Actually, looking at some of your bullet points, I see them as party compromise points. Prior to Dobbs, there was a LARGE percent of Democrats who supported what they called ā€œreasonable restrictionsā€ on Abortion, and many still do if tapered by seeing how slippery the slope really was. And going back 10-15 years made it even more of a mixed bag. Pew couldnā€™t get more than 63% of Democrats to agree abortion should be legal ā€œin most casesā€. Back when Roe was precedent. The thing was, we could all compromise on which cases, and agree that ā€œin no casesā€ should never be the law of the land. The more anti-choice Democrats were willing to compromise on some propaganda, parental shame forms for underage, etc.

            Ditto with healthcare. Itā€™s a sad truth, but most Democrats didnā€™t want to see a Public Option in the ACA. It looks like the trend of ā€œPublic Optionā€ being fringe flipped in 2020. Probably not a coincidence. I canā€™t find party-split polls pre-2020 right now, but a 2019 poll showed fewer than 25% of Americans wanted a Public option. Even if it was mostly Democrat-leaning voters that said that, weā€™re still looking at less than half. Now, admittedly, weā€™re approaching 70% of all voters who want some sort of public option.

            I honestly canā€™t think of any other topic that Democrats disagree with each other as strongly about.

            FPTP Voting, details of abortion rights/restrictions, details of how to handle healthcare. Lots of Freedom of Religion and Freedom of Speech disagreements that just donā€™t rise to the level of ā€œheadliner issueā€. Iā€™d say any copyright/dmca question is ā€œitā€™s complicatedā€ to Democrats who are informed enough to even speak of it. I canā€™t find numbers on the wealth tax, but they seemed mixed back when Warren was pushing it. Topical to the above discussions, military isolationism vs ā€œworld policeā€ attitudes. These are all fairly contentious issues within the United States. Biden seems to represent the plurality view on most of them, which I give him credit for despite my having very different opinions.

            EDIT: To clarify, itā€™s a bigger gap for a bigger reason. Almost exactly half of Democrats are neoliberals. And our progressive caucus, almost as big as the neoliberal wing, is diversified between capitalist-progressives, socialists, and other incompatible but good-faith groups. On the big issues, weā€™re either all in compromise or in agreement on a few large bullet points. But on the less-highlit issues, there are fundamental foundational differences of theory of government within our party. The biggest families of issues on that are:

            1. The nature of money and which economic attitude to hold on things like supply and demand
            2. The type and amount of regulations, or workers rights, that should be enforced vs limitations on businesses (or neither/both).
            3. How much power a president should be able to hold, and in what domains

            The list goes on. For object example, Iā€™m a passively-anti-union progressive. I think Unions are band-aids. I think they should have all the rights and protections they have, but they are a sign of capitalism remaining dominant with regards to worker laws, and our goal should be to make them useless by making them unnecessary. Thereā€™s a lot of Democrats that would vote anti-union, but despite my position, Iā€™d vote pro-union as a compromise for my real wants. However, given the option between writing a union protection or a worker protection into a bill, I would fight tooth-and-nail for the worker protection. Many Democrats would fight for the union protection instead.

            I mean, what does Means-testing look like WRT welfare in the Democratic party? Weā€™re all over the place. People like me say it should be available to everyone regardless of means, where some Labor-friendly neoliberals are happy to leave in ā€œemployedā€ clauses, but want to loosen the income restrictions so that hard-working Americans get the greater benefit. Obviously I am sympathetic to that position as much as I disagree with it.

    • OrteilGenou@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      The headline is supposed to reflect the story. ā€œMore than half of Democrats support Israelā€ is ā€œDog Bites Manā€, thereā€™s nothing surprising. The fact that almost as many are opposed is the ā€œMan Bites Dogā€ part.

    • Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Or they could have been brutally honest and said ā€œmore than half of democrats approve of enabling genocideā€.

      And before you say ā€œbut Trump and the Republicans are much worseā€, yes thatā€™s obviously true but thatā€™s besides the point.

      • kandoh@reddthat.com
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        1 year ago

        If weā€™re truely being honest then the majority of Americans think Isrealis are all descended from holocaust survivors surrounded by Bin Ladens who hate freedom.

        American education is extremely hyper focused on itself and itself exclusively. A US student only learns about other countries through the propaganda version of armed conflicts it personally participated in.

        • Hugin@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          As an American high school student in the early 90ā€™s I was taught that Israel was a great friend to the USA and always being attacked just because other countries didnā€™t like Jews.

          I have a better understanding of things now but it does help me understand why Israel gets so much support from my and older generations.

      • cannache@slrpnk.net
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        1 year ago

        One turtle tells me news that I like to hear and letā€™s me forget about the bastards over there that we keep supporting

      • abraxas@sh.itjust.works
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        1 year ago

        Or they could have been brutally honest and said ā€œmore than half of democrats approve of enabling genocideā€.

        Actually, if they were being genuinely honest, it would be more like ā€œmore than half of democrats think Bidenā€™s making the best choice in an all-round shitty situationā€. None of us approve of enabling genocide.

        Some people actually think ā€œpushing Israel to set rules of engagementā€ is some of the best weā€™re going to get if we canā€™t get the entire world on-board. Nobody wants to invade Israel to stop this (do they), and Israel is out for blood right now. Trying to focus them towards Hamas and not ā€œdestroying Palastineā€ might be the only win we can have 7,000 miles away.

        Iā€™m a fence-sitter on this issue, but I think the majority that supports Bidenā€™s plan do so for reasons that have nothing to do with ā€œenabling genocideā€.

        I get that you want us to condemn Israel. And Iā€™m sure itā€™s been considered. I also undersetand there are ramifications to the US of doing that, and it wonā€™t necessarily save a single Palestinian life.

        • Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Actually, if they were being genuinely honest, it would be more like ā€œmore than half of democrats think Bidenā€™s making the best choice in an all-round shitty situationā€. None of us approve of enabling genocide.

          Thatā€™s a self-contradiction since what you guys think is the ā€œbest choiceā€ is objectively enabling genocide by unquestioningly supporting the government committing it while punishing those that speak up against it.

          Some people actually think ā€œpushing Israel to set rules of engagementā€ is some of the best weā€™re going to get

          It isnā€™t, though. Israel has been setting their own rules the whole time and thatā€™s the majority of what caused the whole thing.

          Nobody wants to invade Israel

          Of course not.

          Israel is out for blood right now. Trying to focus them towards Hamas and not ā€œdestroying Palastineā€ might be the only win we can have 7,000 miles away.

          Thatā€™s not being done, though. Unless thereā€™s consequences such as withholding military (but not humanitarian) aid and possibly targeted sanctions, the apartheid regime is going to continue committing atrocities.

          I think the majority that supports Bidenā€™s plan do so for reasons that have nothing to do with ā€œenabling genocideā€.

          Yes and no: I believe that most of the people who supports his genocide-enabling are under- or misinformed enough to not know that theyā€™re indirectly supporting genocide.

          I get that you want us to condemn Israel.

          Of course. Anything else is being complicit.

          And Iā€™m sure itā€™s been considered.

          Probably not seriously, no. The neoliberal Dem leadership depend too much on bribes from AIPAC and others like them.

          I also undersetand there are ramifications to the US of doing that, and it wonā€™t necessarily save a single Palestinian life

          I guarantee you that no longer getting the financial and political support of the US would force them to be less aggressive, which would save thousands of lives.

          • abraxas@sh.itjust.works
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            1 year ago

            Thatā€™s a self-contradiction since what you guys think is the ā€œbest choiceā€ is objectively enabling genocide

            I think objectively doesnā€™t mean what you think it means. But more importantly, even if youā€™re right about there being a better response than Bidenā€™s (and you might be; itā€™s a complicated issue), that doesnā€™t mean people who support Bidenā€™s position agree that youā€™re right. Which means, NO, objectively, they do not ā€œapprove of enabling genocideā€. Just look at literally the other reply to me that agreed with me at length. And if there are at least two people who support Bidenā€™s decisions in this thread alone that do not ā€œapprove of enabling genocideā€, then I bet you any money thereā€™s at least 2 more out in the US. ā€œPerhaps more than that!ā€

            I called you on your bad-faith accusation that Democratic voters ā€œapprove of enabling genocideā€, and nothing in your reply to me reduces the accuracy of what I called you on. Youā€™re just getting into the weeds arguing politics now.

            If you want, Iā€™d be happy to join that conversation as well. As soon as you concede that the ā€œapprove of enabling genocideā€ thing was excessive and bad faith.

            • Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              Itā€™s a fact that the tack Biden is taking amounts to enabling genocide. Whether you know that or not, saying you approve of his handling of the situation is saying that you approve of enabling genocide no matter if you know it or not.

              In other words:

              1. Bidenā€™s plan is objectively enabling genocide

              2. Some people who donā€™t consider themselves in favor of enabling genocide support Biden

              3. The thing that those people say they support is enabling genocide, no matter how ignorant of reality or in denial they are.

              • abraxas@sh.itjust.works
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                1 year ago

                Curious who made Viking Hippie the sole arbiter of truth. How many experts disagreeing with you makes it less ā€œweā€™re all objectively enabling genocideā€?

                What if I think Viking Hippie is ā€œobjectively enabling genocideā€? Itā€™s a fact (ok, itā€™s just a thought experiment). That means I get to say anyone that agrees with you is ā€œobjectively enabling genocideā€, right?

                • Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  3 days to come back with ā€œyouā€™re wrong because itā€™s arrogant to be confident that youā€™re youā€™re right when people are paid to be wrongā€? Damn, youā€™re really bad at this! šŸ˜‚

                  • abraxas@sh.itjust.works
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                    1 year ago

                    With all due respect, when your opinion is ā€œyour argument AND the supermajority is wrong because I said soā€, you donā€™t leave an opening for anything more constructive.

                    I donā€™t make a good Soyjak