Teachers will be forced to tell parents that their child is questioning their gender even if the young person objects under new guidance for schools in England, the equalities minister has indicated.
Teachers will be forced to tell parents that their child is questioning their gender even if the young person objects under new guidance for schools in England, the equalities minister has indicated.
Posters, like we have in a lot of government buildings, saying âif youâre experiencing home insecurity, use this resourceâ
Fucking easy, dude. Once again, you make it seem so special that itâs the + community experiencing homelessness. It doesnât matter, theyâre people too. Straight kids experiencing homelessness and + community need the same thing - a roof over their head.
Are they not government employees?
I agree with this and itâs the same in the U.S. Once again - itâs to defend against abuse by parents, whether itâs a straight cis male or a trans woman. We donât need special rules - abuse is abuse.
Schools have therapists and counselors.
I agree. I donât think itâs up to government agents to self determine this situation in the family, though. If teachers suspect abuse, theyâre obligated to report it.
Firstly, I made that comment before you elaborated on the idea that your âprogramsâ referred to programs to help the homeless. Of course that kind of generalised âhone insecurityâ helpline is going to be available, but why do we have to start from the idea of them getting kicked out in the first place.
As Iâve said in other comments, you are so committed to the idea that all parents must know all to such an extent that you donât even consider the possibility that many children could be saved from homelessness simply by discretion offered by a teacher as a safeguarding agent.
Youâre right that LGBT+ kids arenât special in regards to being homeless, but this conversation right here, right now isnât about that. Youâre just pulling an âAll Lives Matterâ on this conversation as if thatâs some epic comeback.
They are government employees, bur acting like all government employees are exactly the same is again a really bloody stupid take.
Again, teachers are trained not just to teach, but to safeguard your children from all sorts of things.
And yet by ousting a child like this to their parents by force of law, like youâre supporting, you throw that child into a potentially abusive situation that couldâve been avoided.
Itâs like handing the school bully a stack full of blackmail on a student and expecting them not to abuse it.
Therapists and Counselors that they have to be referred to by their teachers or parents, the exact people they wonât tell because they canât trust them.
EDIT - Actually thereâs one other bit I didnât think about typing this. Not all disclosures are deliberate. A teacher could overhear this and now be obligated to bring hell down upon a child without them being aware of whatâs coming, which Iâd argue is even worse. No therapists or councillors are gonna help with that.
So youâd rather it get to the point of abuse before a teacher can do something about it?
Itâs not even just about self-evaluation - if a child disclosed this to a teacher under the belief they would be safeguarded, the teacher would be legally obligated to say it to the parents even if that child told the teacher the exact nature of their family dynamics and the potential abuse this information could lead to.
Tell you what, it must be great living in your world of black and white where you never have to consider the downstream ramifications your broad generalisations produce.
Because yâalls argument is always âthese kids will instantly get abused then kicked out!â and making that some sort of gotcha, like Iâm pro-homeless youth.
And, as Iâve said, thatâs outside the scope of teaching. Teachers are required by law to report abuse, outside of that they should be expected to tell parents about the behavior of their kids.
As Iâve said and you apparently canât grasp - we have these protections for EVERYONE, why are you trying to carve out special cases for the + community? reporting suspected abuse of a gay kid is the same as reporting it for a straight kid. Theyâre on the same form, what do you think, the gay kid has a pink abuse form?
It doesnât matter if theyâre the same. Theyâre government employees, which are inherently supposed to serve the tax payers, not take their kids and have secret meetings with them.
If my kid breaks his leg biking, is it on the teachers to safeguard my kids? If my kid gets cancer, is it on the teachers to provide medical support?
Teachers have a job, and theyâre pushing to be outside that scope. Teachers arenât there to keep secrets from parents.
âI want a therapistâ - see, donât need to say anything about wanting to be called LaQuanda instead of Jimmy. This is really fucking basic stuff, dude. You just want an excuses to have teachers take on the role of parenting for these kids, without having the actual responsibility for them. Thatâs worse for educators, and parents.
You can literally say that about any abuse situation. I canât file a domestic abuse charge on my partner because I missed a bill payment and I think one day she may slap me because of it.
Thatâs what youâre doing. You just think anytime thereâs a kid who doesnât tell his parent something, it must be abusive. Teachers arenât responsible for their students lives, parents are. Stop trying to make it so these government agents donât respond to the taxpayers wants and actively fight against the people theyâre supposed to serve.
You act like thatâs a purely hypotherical situation Iâm popping out if my ass. There are children in this situation, where this will happen, and your solution is to render them homeless. At least in this situation, you are pro-homeless youth.
And thatâs because teachers do have a lot of duties outside the scope of teaching, including safeguarding.
And I think thatâs where things differ between us. I think the school (not just the teacher) should be allowed to withhold that information if they believe it would endanger that child.
Iâm not trying to carve out a special case for LGBT+, this law that has brought on this discussion is entirely about a law the affects specifically the T part of that community, so of course the conversation will drift that way, because thatâs how conversations work.
You seem to think Iâm happy letting it get to the point of abuse, when the option to not do so is there. That you donât agree with it doesnât mean itâs not there.
Also, in the event there was a piece of information in the same vein that potentially could introduce abuse to a straight child in the same way, I would also want the school to practice discretion about it.
The safeguarding duty is serving the tax-payer. It is preventing abuse where there is reason to suspect that the disclosure of certain information could create an abusive situation.
You say âsecret meetingsâ as though the teachers are going out shopping with them to buy opposite gendered clothes and putting them on HRT. There are much better resources than than what a teacher can and should offer, but thatâs not possible if you donât render an environment where the child has a chance to ask for them.
In the event of a broken leg, yes, a first-aid qualified teacher would provide first-aid to the child, then let paramedics take over from there. In that situation, obviously discretion is not going to be required because itâs not a sensitive issue.
And in the event of cancer, Iâd hope the parents have an active enough involvement in their childâs life that their teachers find out theyâve got cancer before they do. A teacher wouldnât be diagnosing such, as that is outside the scope of their job.
Again, theyâre their to protect your child. If that means protecting them from you, then yes, that is and should be in the scope of their job. Besides which, it isnât them alone that would do this. It would be up the school as well, as a teacher does have the duty to report it to the school so that resources can be given.
Apparently this is too long a conversation, so Iâm going to have to split this in two.
If you think âI want a therapistâ will get the kid a therapist with nothing else said or done, I think itâs you thatâs naive. Even if itâs a schoolâs therapist, those resources are limited in scope, and assessment of need would be carried out.
Itâs true that this would be more confidential, but I am surprised that youâre up for this considering this is another government employee quite literally having secret meetings with your child, and would still result in you not being told anything.
I think you and I both know thatâs not the same, nor carries the same weight as potentially being abused and kicked out of your home due to being ousted as LGBT+.
If there is a reasonable suspicion that disclosing that information could lead to abuse, and not disclosing it wouldnât, Iâd much rather those âgovernment employeesâ err on the side of not waiting until theyâve introduced a child into an abusive situation before doing something about it.
I donât think anytime a child doesnât want their parent to be told something it is abusive. What I donât want is a law that creates a situation where the above is true, and makes the situation worse.
Iâm pinpointing on this as an example, because itâs a realistic scenario that points out that a universal disclosure law isnât a good idea if you actually want to protect children, because it isnât always the just outside world that could harm them.
They arenât fighting against the people theyâre supposed to serve. Their ability is foster the people of the future, and that includes safeguarding them from harm, including that introduced by the childâs parents.
Plus, are you forgetting that these children will one day be those very tax-payers, who may very well be thankful that their school acted in their best interest?
So you think school therapists arenât good enough? Yet you think the teachers know more about how it will affect the student? Which is it, are the schools competent or not?
0 difference. Cops canât arrests my spouse because they assume that she might one day abuse me.
Instead of encouraging lying to parents, why not try to improve abuse and homeless programs? Why donât you advertise them in school? Giant posters âdo you think youâre being abuse? Talk to a school counselor to get information on resourcesâ
Boom. This is fucking easy dude. You just want excuses for government employees to override the parenting of parents, without any evidence besides a teachers subjective observations and rash conclusions.
What if it makes it better? A kid thatâs questioning gender have much higher suicide rates, what if the teacher withholds this information, and the kid commits suicide. Thatâs on the teacher, is that what you want? Parents have that responsibility, not teachers. You want teachers to have the say, without any of the repercussions.
Once again, thatâs not their duty. Their duty is educate the children how the people in the state and district desire.
You have this impression that government agents should be the ones determining the culture of the future. Paired with the government forcing us to give them our children for 8 hours a day 5 days a week or else they take our children from us.Thatâs inherently dangerous and anti-liberal.
Limited in scope as in limited capacity. All public therapists are. The Queue to be put onto an NHS therapistâs list is years long.
I do think the schools therapist is a good outlet, but a schools therapist canât do much to solve accidental disclosures. The moment a teacher eavesdrops on the student talking about it outside a therapy, itâs still game over for them.
What are you on about??
The whole point of what I said is that I think the teachers and school system are competent enough to assess whether revealing this information could endanger a child, and should use that foresight to prevent abuse as part of their safeguarding duties.
First off, I was never on about arresting anybody.
Secondly, if you had reasonable suspicion to think that your wife might abuse you or kick out of the house based on something about you that has almost no almost no effect on her, then I donât think youâd appreciate it if your friends went behind you back an told her, thereby endangering you, would you?
The fundemental gap between us rears itâs ugly head again. Youâre willing to let it get to the point of abuse before you help out, Iâm not.
Improve those programs to help people who canât avoid that scenario, but there is still a responsibility to prevent that scenario from occurring. Youâre not a very good safeguarder if not only do you not react until the damage is already done, but you bring it about in the first place.
Iâll put it this way, Iâd rather have false positives in the face of defending children, than assume every parent is good and turn the other cheek to the abuse that could and would cause.
Besides which, could abusive parents not make the same argument of the services meant to stop them?
On the Venn diagram of parents who a school may view as candidates to abuse their children over this if made aware of this information, and parents that would help guide their children through this process, I suspect the overlap to be minute.
Yet again, it is. The fact that this law undermines that safeguarding duty by potentially putting teachers into a situation where they are legally required to enable abuse is abhorrent.
It us their duty to report concerns to the school, who should then make the decision whether it is safe to tell the parents. Teachers should not be given that burden of being put into a situation where they have to potential enable abuse.
Iâm not suggesting they should be determining the culture of the future. But teachers are there to encourage students to pursue their passions, and also to create a safe environment where that can be done.
If that includes allowing a student to show a part of their persona that they cannot show at home, for as long as it is not endangering others at the school, then the strong arm of the law shouldnât be striking it down.
The fact that you want the government to intervene to take that away from teachers screams far more dangerous and anti-liberal to me, just saying
Also, Iâm just about done with this argument, so this will be my last reply on this topic. Feel free to slander me as you like in your next reply.
Okay, so instead of spending 30% more per full time student than our peer countries and forcing teachers to take on the responsibilities of therapists, maybe get some more therapists?
I also know I was in a title 1 school and we had a school counselor, which would be more appropriate to discuss than with the average teacher.
And what Iâve said is I think government employees shouldnât keep secrets about someones kid from the parents, when the parents are hiring the teachers to educate, not raise the kids.
Okay, CPS canât take away kids because they think one day the kid might say something that the parents may not like and CPS considers that the parent may one day dislike it enough to not deal with it how government agents see fit. Does that make the hoops easier to jump through for you? The issue is the same - teachers should be transparent with parents of the kids. If they suspect abuse, there are legal processes for that. I donât think itâs wise to encourage teachers to unilaterally decide they will by pass all that.
Youâre willing to let adults hired by the government, outside of parents unilaterally decide whatâs best for the other kids. Iâm not.
Iâll ask you a straight up question, I hope you respond to - if your kid was showing signs of gender dysphoria at school, which has an incredibly high suicide attempt rate, and a teacher withheld that information from you, and your kid commits suicide, is there any blame on the teacher?
In my eyes, the teacher shares probably the most responsibility of any adult, for seeing the signs and not reporting it.
Where teachers have to be consistent and canât unilaterally decide to withhold information from parents?
No they arenât. They are supposed to teach our youth the basics of our worlds understanding through objective studies like math, science, history, english. They are not meant to push the kids in any which way. And they are failing at their basic duties to the parents and kids. We spend 30% more per student than our peer countries, and getting terrible results. Once that happens, Iâd be more willing to talk about teachers and kids having secret gender dysphoria sessions.