Hundreds of protesters stormed the Swedish embassy in central Baghdad in the early hours of Thursday morning, scaling its walls and setting it on fire in protest against the expected burning of a Koran in Sweden.
For sure, and again, I’m absolutely not trying to deny the existence of prejudice against Muslims or Arabs. As I said - and this is very much my own American experience speaking here as well - I do have a level of discomfort with the government deciding where those lines of acceptable conduct are with issues that are as messy and controversial as religion, even if I strongly abhor the conduct in question. But then again, I can also understand the desire to protect vulnerable groups, and I won’t pretend that “just grow a thicker skin lol” is a particularly useful policy prescription.
I suppose the closest analogue we’ve had over here are the “God hates removeds” people from the Westboro Baptist Church from a decade and change ago. While that’s activity that is very blatantly intended to grossly disrespect, offend and provoke people, I don’t think it’s an unjust expectation for society to place on us to maintain a level of civility and peace, even in the face of such explicit incitement. The correct thing to do in a civil society in such situations is to move on with one’s life and ignore it (unless the activity escalates to actual violence or direct consistent harassment), and I’d simply apply the exact same standards in this situation. Just as I should be able to maintain self-control in the face of someone telling me I’m an evil perverted removed who deserves to burn in hell for eternity, a Muslim should equally be able to remain peaceful in the face of some pieces of paper being burnt (even if, again, both actions are pretty vile).
As I said though, I acknowledge that there’s a lot of nuance here and that different societies may have different standards and principles with things like this. At the very least, the intention is obviously to protect vulnerable and marginalized people, and I’ll always support that in principle, even if the details get messy.
Yes, it’s definitely a very polarizing and personal question with no clear right or wrong. And I am also aware that there can be side effects to laws that unintentionally strike too broadly. It’s vital to protect the constitutional laws that protect our democracies, and limit restrictions to those laws.
I personally think you as a gay person absolutely should be protected from harassment from groups like the Westboro Baptist Church. My opinion is that they have the right to think that “God hates removeds”, they have the right to say it, they have the right to proclaim it publicly (possibly; it depends), individuals might even have the right to say it to your face. What they shouldn’t have, is the right to picket in front of your home, place of work or LGBTQ meeting spaces, or follow you around. Then it becomes harassment and persecution. And in Sweden, possibly illegal, if done in a manner and context that violates you as a member of a protected group.
I think that’s a valid and reasonable limitation to free speech, but yes, it’s murky waters. There’s a lot of debate now (and no consensus) in Swedish media about the current limits to free speech and where the line should be drawn.
Ironically many of the people who are absolutist right now (we should always be allowed to burn Qurans everywhere every time, it’s free speech, the Muslims have such thin skin) are often the same people who want to ban “trans story hour” for children in libraries 🤷♂️
What they shouldn’t have, is the right to picket in front of your home, place of work or LGBTQ meeting spaces, or follow you around. Then it becomes harassment and persecution.
Totally agreed, though I’d mention that the mere act of burning a book that you yourself own is not any of those things. As you say though, there’s a lot of legitimate debate to be had here, and I have to add, it’s very refreshing that we’ve been able to actually have a conversation about these things in a respectful manner.
Ironically many of the people who are absolutist right now (we should always be allowed to burn Qurans everywhere every time, it’s free speech, the Muslims have such thin skin) are often the same people who want to ban “trans story hour” for children in libraries 🤷♂️
Yep, absolutely, which is why I’m always extremely skeptical of giving these kinds of people any light of day. I’ve seen way too many gay people get sucked down Islamophobic conservative rabbit holes simply because they’re given a simple enemy to blame, and that’s far easier than having to acknowledge the complexity and nuance in everything.
At any rate, I certainly wish you all the best in navigating these issues, and if people are able to actually maintain some level of mutual respect and civil dialogue, I’m confident we’ll eventually figure it out. I’m actually going to be in Sweden next year for Eurovision, and I’m really looking forward to it!
I’d mention that the mere act of burning a book that you yourself own is not any of those things
I’m actually going to be in Sweden next year for Eurovision, and I’m really looking forward to it!
Of course, I’d toast you over a rainbow drink while we watched the Quran burn along with the “God hates removeds” flyers, some 1950s books on how to be a good wife, possibly the book of Mormon, Torah, a Bible, a Taylor Swift poster and Harry Potter for good measure in my back yard! Just perhaps not in front of an embassy, mosque, synagogue, church etc… Just to be on the safe side legally 😊 Very nice and refreshing debate climate, and I really hope you enjoy Eurovision!
For sure, and again, I’m absolutely not trying to deny the existence of prejudice against Muslims or Arabs. As I said - and this is very much my own American experience speaking here as well - I do have a level of discomfort with the government deciding where those lines of acceptable conduct are with issues that are as messy and controversial as religion, even if I strongly abhor the conduct in question. But then again, I can also understand the desire to protect vulnerable groups, and I won’t pretend that “just grow a thicker skin lol” is a particularly useful policy prescription.
I suppose the closest analogue we’ve had over here are the “God hates removeds” people from the Westboro Baptist Church from a decade and change ago. While that’s activity that is very blatantly intended to grossly disrespect, offend and provoke people, I don’t think it’s an unjust expectation for society to place on us to maintain a level of civility and peace, even in the face of such explicit incitement. The correct thing to do in a civil society in such situations is to move on with one’s life and ignore it (unless the activity escalates to actual violence or direct consistent harassment), and I’d simply apply the exact same standards in this situation. Just as I should be able to maintain self-control in the face of someone telling me I’m an evil perverted removed who deserves to burn in hell for eternity, a Muslim should equally be able to remain peaceful in the face of some pieces of paper being burnt (even if, again, both actions are pretty vile).
As I said though, I acknowledge that there’s a lot of nuance here and that different societies may have different standards and principles with things like this. At the very least, the intention is obviously to protect vulnerable and marginalized people, and I’ll always support that in principle, even if the details get messy.
Yes, it’s definitely a very polarizing and personal question with no clear right or wrong. And I am also aware that there can be side effects to laws that unintentionally strike too broadly. It’s vital to protect the constitutional laws that protect our democracies, and limit restrictions to those laws.
I personally think you as a gay person absolutely should be protected from harassment from groups like the Westboro Baptist Church. My opinion is that they have the right to think that “God hates removeds”, they have the right to say it, they have the right to proclaim it publicly (possibly; it depends), individuals might even have the right to say it to your face. What they shouldn’t have, is the right to picket in front of your home, place of work or LGBTQ meeting spaces, or follow you around. Then it becomes harassment and persecution. And in Sweden, possibly illegal, if done in a manner and context that violates you as a member of a protected group.
I think that’s a valid and reasonable limitation to free speech, but yes, it’s murky waters. There’s a lot of debate now (and no consensus) in Swedish media about the current limits to free speech and where the line should be drawn.
Ironically many of the people who are absolutist right now (we should always be allowed to burn Qurans everywhere every time, it’s free speech, the Muslims have such thin skin) are often the same people who want to ban “trans story hour” for children in libraries 🤷♂️
Totally agreed, though I’d mention that the mere act of burning a book that you yourself own is not any of those things. As you say though, there’s a lot of legitimate debate to be had here, and I have to add, it’s very refreshing that we’ve been able to actually have a conversation about these things in a respectful manner.
Yep, absolutely, which is why I’m always extremely skeptical of giving these kinds of people any light of day. I’ve seen way too many gay people get sucked down Islamophobic conservative rabbit holes simply because they’re given a simple enemy to blame, and that’s far easier than having to acknowledge the complexity and nuance in everything.
At any rate, I certainly wish you all the best in navigating these issues, and if people are able to actually maintain some level of mutual respect and civil dialogue, I’m confident we’ll eventually figure it out. I’m actually going to be in Sweden next year for Eurovision, and I’m really looking forward to it!
Of course, I’d toast you over a rainbow drink while we watched the Quran burn along with the “God hates removeds” flyers, some 1950s books on how to be a good wife, possibly the book of Mormon, Torah, a Bible, a Taylor Swift poster and Harry Potter for good measure in my back yard! Just perhaps not in front of an embassy, mosque, synagogue, church etc… Just to be on the safe side legally 😊 Very nice and refreshing debate climate, and I really hope you enjoy Eurovision!