Retaining some ability to spend and use cash is vital because otherwise, all our financial transactions are totally controlled by the banks, and they are completely untrustworthy. The cost is inconvenience.
Yes that’s fair enough, cash doesn’t work online - but bitcoin is a better solution for online transactions than cards.
I mean, we haven’t even got into the subject of data tracking. If you think Facebook is bad, consider for a moment how much your card provider knows about you. Banks and card companies have learned from Facebook, and data brokerage is now a trillion dollar industry - with only 8 billion people in the world (many of whom don’t use the internet or have data being traded), that means your data is worth roughly $1,000 a year. Surely, as the manufacturer of the data, you should be getting some of that?!
Objectively, bitcoin is better for online transactions. It’s not even all that safe for buying drugs - every transaction is recorded permanently in an open ledger, so it’s actually much easier to trace (at least up to the end points where traditional currency is exchanged).
It might be less widely accepted, but that’s only because of how insidiously endemic MasterCard and VISA are.
How is bitcoin objectively better? That’s a pretty bold statement that needs some backing arguments.
They both have pros and cons, but until BTC have garanteed near instanteneous transaction confirmation, I don’t see how that would work at the grocery store for example.
Bitcoin is objectively better based on the way it works. Subjectively, with the established infrastructure behind it, traditional card payments are artificially better - purely because of convenience. But on a level playing field bitcoin works better and is less susceptible to negative influences.
The grocery store is not typically an online transaction. I did specify online transactions. For buying groceries online, bitcoin would be better - there are no fees when trading bitcoin. When trading cash, there are no fees.
When putting cash into a business account, there are fees, and as almost all businesses put their money into an account they pay these fees. These cash deposit fees and card processing fees have grown in such a way as to entrap nearly all commercial transactions.
Objectively, it’s better if there aren’t fees, particularly when the fees are not proportional to the actual service the fees are supposed to represent.
That’s a weird take. A system is better because it’s free?
I re-read your comment and I missed the fact that you said online buying, sorry about that.
One advantage of traditional CC over Bitcoin is buyer insurance against fraud. If someone gets a hold of your Bitcoin wallet, he can take out everything and you have no recourse.
If someone steal your credit card and make fraudulent purchases, the transactions will be cancelled and you won’t be left on the hook.
The credit companies do not insure against fraud, they simply take the money out of the merchant account and put it back into yours. Now it’s the merchant who has no recourse, if they have already shipped the product. So the only difference between CC and crypto is who is typically left holding an empty bag in case of theft - the payer or the payee. Certainly not the banks!
I’d argue in terms of assigning responsibility, it seems more fair to expect you the customer to keep your digital wallet secure from thieves, than to expect the merchant to try guess every time whether the visitor to their online store happens to be using a stolen credit card.
Just saw a sign in my bakery today begging people to pay by card because getting small coins from the bank is hard and expensive.
TBF here in Belgium Bancontact has a local monopoly (about 1 % flat fee, no fixed cost per transaction; that seems fair and intuitively cheaper than holding, insuring, depositing cash, dealing with employees skimming off the top, of the time lost counting bills).
Also the government heavily incentivizes electronic payments because those can’t be pocketed without paying VAT. That’s a MONUMENTAL amount of tax fraud being chipped at by the progressive disappearance of cash.
That’s the real crux, banks charge businesses to deposit cash. They do it in such a way that there’s no way to escape their ever-increasing fee percentage.
The mattress solution is more and more appealing, imo.
Also the government heavily incentivizes electronic payments because those can’t be pocketed without paying VAT. That’s a MONUMENTAL amount of tax fraud being chipped at by the progressive disappearance of cash.
Unfortunately I think the amount of cash tax fraud that exists is far more reasonable than the amount of straight up fraudulent, yet “legitimate”, expenditure that governments allow. See, for example, covid PPP loans.
Write offs, PPP loans, deferrals, and all the other accounting tricks that the government carved out for the primary benefit of the wealthy are definitely a bigger loss of tax revenue. One guy writing off a personal vehicle for his personal business is probably what a busy restaurant makes in 4 months of cash purchases. Suppliers and distributors are also unlikely to deal with large volumes of cash just as a matter of practicality and risk, and the fact that you can’t have a functioning business with employees that need paychecks without going through banks which go through the government, unless you’re operating with an entirely under the table staff which is just begging for trouble.
Seems like an easy fix for a business, just change their prices so that they don’t have to use coins. Make everything an integer number of dollars. If the items are too cheap to round up, encourage a three for two deal or something like that.
Sales tax doesn’t change that frequently. It’s easy for a business to predict and account for it when setting their prices.
… the euros’ lowest paper bill is 5€. 1 € and 2€ coins are bulky pieces of shit too.
And a bakery is the worst affected kind of business even if there was a 1€ paper bill. A loaf of good bread is 1.40€, if you round up it’s way too expensive and if you round down they may not even make a profit. Can’t exactly buy 3 loaves of bread either unless you got a family of 6 to feed.
The people insisting on using cash are the ones with a big pile of it, with origin dubious to unknown. Anti tax evasion is the best part of digital banking. Threats to privacy is the other side of that coin unfortunately…
The cost of a bank account has nothing to do with fees for electronic cash. Fees for electronic cash are collected per each transaction and are paid by the business you buy from. These huge fees are why businesses are slow to adopt electronic cash in Germany, they see no reason to pay 1%+ of their revenue to Mastercard or Visa or whatever.
Mastercard and VISA are not banks and don’t offer bank accounts.
Bank accounts are free. Transfers to and between banks are free.
That 1% fee you’re talking about is a processing fee from the credit card companies, which are separate financial institutions acting as middlemen to the banks.
There is no need to use their services. You can just transfer bank to bank for free, with free bank accounts. No MasterCard or VISA involved at all.
You… do not know what thread I was replying to, do you?
What is being talked about is high fees associated with each transaction done with electronic cash. Please read the comment I directly responded to again: https://lemm.ee/comment/6705330
It is necessary to use their services (or at least some other entity collecting fees) when you pay without cash in a store. You can’t go to a store and pay with direct bank transfer.
Re: credit card companies: you’re right, and you’re not the first to say it.
South East Asia is pissed off at them and their fees too. Starting in Thailand (but spreading) their big banks got together and made a QR code system for instant sending of money (similar to what Australia did with PayID which obfuscated bank account numbers with your own phone or email address, and stacked with Osko, a fast transfer system to bypass the slow (days) bank to bank transfers).
You will see street vendors with food carts with a QR code on it. You want to buy something? You order, they say the price, you scan the code, send the money, show your phone, get your food.
(You can have codes with the payment amount already in it, like in a bill, but since this is just a food cart on a sidewalk, they just have one generic “pay me” code)
Because they are bank to bank, it’s all fee-free.
And yes, in the USA you have Venmo and similar, which has other issues, I think.
In the Philippines so many people use pay-as-you-go and prepaid phone plans, and load up their account with credit, they’ve gone further. People could gift credit to other people for a long time. Now, you can actually pay for things with your phone credit there. (GCash, which confused me for a Google product for a while). There’s only two mobile/cellular phone companies in the country (all the rest are resellers), so it has some monopoly issues. But what it means is since everyone has a phone (doesn’t have to be a smart phone. A nokia style dumb phone is fine), you don’t need cash or to pay VISA/MC.
Cash is garbage. Using cash electronically is good.
That’s more of a California thing. They’re talking about the fee charged by the CC company to the merchant, which is usually absorbed by the merchant. You’re talking about businesses charging you extra for using your credit card, which I have only seen in California.
If only there was some way of federating spending in a way that would make private credit card companies obsolete. I’m still confused how no one sees any future in block chain and just say “it’s all a scam”.
Block chain has become a buzz word, just like AI or NFT’s, but they sure as hell makes some people a chunk of money before everyone realises what it actually means.
Very large amount of people end up paying fees from ATMs to get cash. And, if there weren’t card service, you bet the banks would add fees to any type of cash access, eg: all ATMs and bank withdrawals.
I’ve never had to pay a fee to withdraw cash from an ATM in the USA, unless it was from a different bank than mine. Other banks charge for the convenience of taking your money from their ATM, when you don’t have an account with their bank or affiliate.
It’s easy to avoid those fees by just going to your own bank’s ATM.
For the record - that’s generally also how it works in Europe. Or well, Germany at least. Also there are independent ATM companies (Euronet and the like) not affiliated with major banks who charge outrageous fees to everyone desperate enough to use one of their ATMs.
Japan does, and it’s actually worse than the US bc the ATM from your own bank charges you if you use it after 5 pm or on the weekend. They also shut down some ATMs at either 5 or 9 pm.
Despite the facade, Japan is pretty backwards with technology. The classic way to look at it is a country of duality with bipedal robots and fax machines, although faxes are finally dying out finally. Some examples are that they still produced VCRs until 2016, many places depending where you are didn’t take credit cards up until about 5 years ago (although they seemingly mostly jumped over the credit card thing and went straight from cash to mobile pay systems), and as of 15 years ago I still saw the presence of 3.5" floppies, although those needed to be connected to computers via USB floppy drives.
I live in Europe, and when I withdraw from ATMs when traveling in Germany, I only use “trusted” ATMs like official banks (never Euronet or other “scam” ATMs), but because it’s outside of my own country, it’ll cost ~5€ per withdrawal. In my own country I don’t pay, no matter which bank’s ATM I use.
Other countries don’t have ATM fees, either. I can go to almost any cash point with any bank and withdraw for free. It’s only certain ones that charge, typically places with a captive audience eg festivals or certain retail parks.
The US is incredibly strange for charging people money to get their cash.
Yeah, those are the only ones that might charge. Standalone ones in shops, not at a bank branch, and in particular in places where people might be out drinking.
I’ll just tell you about Japan… they will have “outside of business hours” ATM fees just because. Link to website
With the Postal Bank it is possible to carry around your passbook in place of your debit bank card to access your account. Even from an ATM that automatically records transactions in there which is kind of retro yet cool.
My experience in the US is you pay fees whenever you withdraw from a bank that isn’t your own. In other countries, you don’t pay fees unless you withdraw from an independent machine, and even then many are free.
I dunno though, I had a cushy US bank with no branches of their own, so they didn’t charge fees anywhere. BoA were bastards though, and I’ve heard terrible things about Chase.
Cash is king, we shouldn’t be paying MasterCard and VISA for every purchase we make.
Case in point: when the UK left the EU, MC and VISA immediately increased their transaction fees from 0.3% to 1.5%.
Cash isn’t much use for making purchases online, which is also where an ever increasing amount of spending is done.
There’s no coin or note slot on my laptop, and contrary to the internet’s advice throwing money at my screen doesn’t seem to work either.
I used to be a big proponent of cash but with the bulk of my financial activity happening online now I can’t help it feeling a bit redundant.
Cash is needed nonetheless because when there is a downtime for whatever reason, it is not good if the only thing you have is a card.
Retaining some ability to spend and use cash is vital because otherwise, all our financial transactions are totally controlled by the banks, and they are completely untrustworthy. The cost is inconvenience.
Mullvad lets you mail them cash, but I don’t think it’s scalable nor fast enough to be widely used.
The last time I sent cash in the mail was in the early 00s when buying CDs from ebay. Wild that there is a service today that takes cash via mail.
They do it to make it as anonymous as possible
Yes that’s fair enough, cash doesn’t work online - but bitcoin is a better solution for online transactions than cards.
I mean, we haven’t even got into the subject of data tracking. If you think Facebook is bad, consider for a moment how much your card provider knows about you. Banks and card companies have learned from Facebook, and data brokerage is now a trillion dollar industry - with only 8 billion people in the world (many of whom don’t use the internet or have data being traded), that means your data is worth roughly $1,000 a year. Surely, as the manufacturer of the data, you should be getting some of that?!
Lol Bitcoin is not better than cards for online shopping, the only thing it’s better for is buying whatever you’re smoking.
Objectively, bitcoin is better for online transactions. It’s not even all that safe for buying drugs - every transaction is recorded permanently in an open ledger, so it’s actually much easier to trace (at least up to the end points where traditional currency is exchanged).
It might be less widely accepted, but that’s only because of how insidiously endemic MasterCard and VISA are.
How is bitcoin objectively better? That’s a pretty bold statement that needs some backing arguments.
They both have pros and cons, but until BTC have garanteed near instanteneous transaction confirmation, I don’t see how that would work at the grocery store for example.
Bitcoin is objectively better based on the way it works. Subjectively, with the established infrastructure behind it, traditional card payments are artificially better - purely because of convenience. But on a level playing field bitcoin works better and is less susceptible to negative influences.
The grocery store is not typically an online transaction. I did specify online transactions. For buying groceries online, bitcoin would be better - there are no fees when trading bitcoin. When trading cash, there are no fees.
When putting cash into a business account, there are fees, and as almost all businesses put their money into an account they pay these fees. These cash deposit fees and card processing fees have grown in such a way as to entrap nearly all commercial transactions.
Objectively, it’s better if there aren’t fees, particularly when the fees are not proportional to the actual service the fees are supposed to represent.
That’s a weird take. A system is better because it’s free?
I re-read your comment and I missed the fact that you said online buying, sorry about that.
One advantage of traditional CC over Bitcoin is buyer insurance against fraud. If someone gets a hold of your Bitcoin wallet, he can take out everything and you have no recourse.
If someone steal your credit card and make fraudulent purchases, the transactions will be cancelled and you won’t be left on the hook.
you’re wrong for valuing peace of mind.
/s
The credit companies do not insure against fraud, they simply take the money out of the merchant account and put it back into yours. Now it’s the merchant who has no recourse, if they have already shipped the product. So the only difference between CC and crypto is who is typically left holding an empty bag in case of theft - the payer or the payee. Certainly not the banks!
I’d argue in terms of assigning responsibility, it seems more fair to expect you the customer to keep your digital wallet secure from thieves, than to expect the merchant to try guess every time whether the visitor to their online store happens to be using a stolen credit card.
That’s credit, most online purchases are made with debit cards.
Aaaaaand now you’ve lost me.
Aaaaand how?
For one, Bitcoin is inefficient and energy intensive technology.
Just saw a sign in my bakery today begging people to pay by card because getting small coins from the bank is hard and expensive.
TBF here in Belgium Bancontact has a local monopoly (about 1 % flat fee, no fixed cost per transaction; that seems fair and intuitively cheaper than holding, insuring, depositing cash, dealing with employees skimming off the top, of the time lost counting bills).
Also the government heavily incentivizes electronic payments because those can’t be pocketed without paying VAT. That’s a MONUMENTAL amount of tax fraud being chipped at by the progressive disappearance of cash.
That’s the real crux, banks charge businesses to deposit cash. They do it in such a way that there’s no way to escape their ever-increasing fee percentage.
The mattress solution is more and more appealing, imo.
Unfortunately I think the amount of cash tax fraud that exists is far more reasonable than the amount of straight up fraudulent, yet “legitimate”, expenditure that governments allow. See, for example, covid PPP loans.
Write offs, PPP loans, deferrals, and all the other accounting tricks that the government carved out for the primary benefit of the wealthy are definitely a bigger loss of tax revenue. One guy writing off a personal vehicle for his personal business is probably what a busy restaurant makes in 4 months of cash purchases. Suppliers and distributors are also unlikely to deal with large volumes of cash just as a matter of practicality and risk, and the fact that you can’t have a functioning business with employees that need paychecks without going through banks which go through the government, unless you’re operating with an entirely under the table staff which is just begging for trouble.
Seems like an easy fix for a business, just change their prices so that they don’t have to use coins. Make everything an integer number of dollars. If the items are too cheap to round up, encourage a three for two deal or something like that.
Sales tax doesn’t change that frequently. It’s easy for a business to predict and account for it when setting their prices.
… the euros’ lowest paper bill is 5€. 1 € and 2€ coins are bulky pieces of shit too.
And a bakery is the worst affected kind of business even if there was a 1€ paper bill. A loaf of good bread is 1.40€, if you round up it’s way too expensive and if you round down they may not even make a profit. Can’t exactly buy 3 loaves of bread either unless you got a family of 6 to feed.
Unfortunatley that won’t work, banks charge businesses a percentage for deposits.
The people insisting on using cash are the ones with a big pile of it, with origin dubious to unknown. Anti tax evasion is the best part of digital banking. Threats to privacy is the other side of that coin unfortunately…
Honestly there should be governmental electronic cash with the same advantages as cash, i.e. no fees & no traceability.
there are very easy free bank accounts to open.
Traceability is the tricky part.
The cost of a bank account has nothing to do with fees for electronic cash. Fees for electronic cash are collected per each transaction and are paid by the business you buy from. These huge fees are why businesses are slow to adopt electronic cash in Germany, they see no reason to pay 1%+ of their revenue to Mastercard or Visa or whatever.
You… are not an adult, are you?
Mastercard and VISA are not banks and don’t offer bank accounts.
Bank accounts are free. Transfers to and between banks are free.
That 1% fee you’re talking about is a processing fee from the credit card companies, which are separate financial institutions acting as middlemen to the banks.
There is no need to use their services. You can just transfer bank to bank for free, with free bank accounts. No MasterCard or VISA involved at all.
You… do not know what thread I was replying to, do you?
What is being talked about is high fees associated with each transaction done with electronic cash. Please read the comment I directly responded to again: https://lemm.ee/comment/6705330
It is necessary to use their services (or at least some other entity collecting fees) when you pay without cash in a store. You can’t go to a store and pay with direct bank transfer.
Removed by mod
Also, PS: this comment I wrote a while back: https://lemmy.world/comment/5658808
I dunno, there are good arguments for traceability. Bitcoin has complete traceability, up to its endpoints.
Re: credit card companies: you’re right, and you’re not the first to say it.
South East Asia is pissed off at them and their fees too. Starting in Thailand (but spreading) their big banks got together and made a QR code system for instant sending of money (similar to what Australia did with PayID which obfuscated bank account numbers with your own phone or email address, and stacked with Osko, a fast transfer system to bypass the slow (days) bank to bank transfers).
You will see street vendors with food carts with a QR code on it. You want to buy something? You order, they say the price, you scan the code, send the money, show your phone, get your food.
(You can have codes with the payment amount already in it, like in a bill, but since this is just a food cart on a sidewalk, they just have one generic “pay me” code)
Because they are bank to bank, it’s all fee-free.
And yes, in the USA you have Venmo and similar, which has other issues, I think.
In the Philippines so many people use pay-as-you-go and prepaid phone plans, and load up their account with credit, they’ve gone further. People could gift credit to other people for a long time. Now, you can actually pay for things with your phone credit there. (GCash, which confused me for a Google product for a while). There’s only two mobile/cellular phone companies in the country (all the rest are resellers), so it has some monopoly issues. But what it means is since everyone has a phone (doesn’t have to be a smart phone. A nokia style dumb phone is fine), you don’t need cash or to pay VISA/MC.
Cash is garbage. Using cash electronically is good.
Using credit card companies is dubious.
Here in at least the state of California (not sure if this is country wide) those bank “convenience” fees are limited to no more than $1.50 by law.
Yes cos California is little Europe and we love the modern thinking
Are you talking credit card fees or bank transaction fees?
That fee charged for simply using your debit card at a POS.
That’s more of a California thing. They’re talking about the fee charged by the CC company to the merchant, which is usually absorbed by the merchant. You’re talking about businesses charging you extra for using your credit card, which I have only seen in California.
I’ve seen it in local businesses in texas
My bank (RBC) charges me $2.50 after 10 or so free transactions, doubled if tapped.
I switched to Neo and I love it.
If only there was some way of federating spending in a way that would make private credit card companies obsolete. I’m still confused how no one sees any future in block chain and just say “it’s all a scam”.
Block chain has become a buzz word, just like AI or NFT’s, but they sure as hell makes some people a chunk of money before everyone realises what it actually means.
because it doesn’t work. case in point: it hasn’t. It improves on one aspect, and regresses (very very badly) in every single other aspect.
Electronic is faster, more convenient, safer, easier to track, and doesn’t need a stupid purse to carry around.
Haven’t touched cash since 2020, couldn’t be happier.
Very large amount of people end up paying fees from ATMs to get cash. And, if there weren’t card service, you bet the banks would add fees to any type of cash access, eg: all ATMs and bank withdrawals.
thats an american thing, civilized nations dont let banks do that
I’ve never had to pay a fee to withdraw cash from an ATM in the USA, unless it was from a different bank than mine. Other banks charge for the convenience of taking your money from their ATM, when you don’t have an account with their bank or affiliate.
It’s easy to avoid those fees by just going to your own bank’s ATM.
For the record - that’s generally also how it works in Europe. Or well, Germany at least. Also there are independent ATM companies (Euronet and the like) not affiliated with major banks who charge outrageous fees to everyone desperate enough to use one of their ATMs.
I’ve only touched a Euronet ATM to write “SCAM” on it, to warn those unaware of the dangers awaiting them…
Japan does, and it’s actually worse than the US bc the ATM from your own bank charges you if you use it after 5 pm or on the weekend. They also shut down some ATMs at either 5 or 9 pm.
Thats actually insane, wtf japan
Despite the facade, Japan is pretty backwards with technology. The classic way to look at it is a country of duality with bipedal robots and fax machines, although faxes are finally dying out finally. Some examples are that they still produced VCRs until 2016, many places depending where you are didn’t take credit cards up until about 5 years ago (although they seemingly mostly jumped over the credit card thing and went straight from cash to mobile pay systems), and as of 15 years ago I still saw the presence of 3.5" floppies, although those needed to be connected to computers via USB floppy drives.
I live in Europe, and when I withdraw from ATMs when traveling in Germany, I only use “trusted” ATMs like official banks (never Euronet or other “scam” ATMs), but because it’s outside of my own country, it’ll cost ~5€ per withdrawal. In my own country I don’t pay, no matter which bank’s ATM I use.
Other countries don’t have ATM fees, either. I can go to almost any cash point with any bank and withdraw for free. It’s only certain ones that charge, typically places with a captive audience eg festivals or certain retail parks.
The US is incredibly strange for charging people money to get their cash.
ATM fees do make sense if it’s not a bank owned ATM, though. A separate company owns and maintains the machines, which costs money.
Yeah, those are the only ones that might charge. Standalone ones in shops, not at a bank branch, and in particular in places where people might be out drinking.
I’ll just tell you about Japan… they will have “outside of business hours” ATM fees just because. Link to website
With the Postal Bank it is possible to carry around your passbook in place of your debit bank card to access your account. Even from an ATM that automatically records transactions in there which is kind of retro yet cool.
Edit: added link
So some ATMs don’t have fees, and some locations do have fees.
Wow, sounds exactly like how it is in the US, too!
My experience in the US is you pay fees whenever you withdraw from a bank that isn’t your own. In other countries, you don’t pay fees unless you withdraw from an independent machine, and even then many are free.
I dunno though, I had a cushy US bank with no branches of their own, so they didn’t charge fees anywhere. BoA were bastards though, and I’ve heard terrible things about Chase.
Chase has some of the best bank accounts in America.
The bank may be awful, but some of their products are among the best in the world.
… Are you David Tennant?
Heh, they’re in the UK now too? Cool. Yeah, the UK has some pretty shitty bank accounts from what little I’ve seen, so this helps.
Chase are still pricks though, to be clear. Bunch of bell-ends.
I don’t pay them. The business conducting the transaction does :p
You mean, the fee is already baked into the sticker price, so you’re paying it regardless of which payment method you use.
Ya
No thanks