It’s impressive how radical DS9 was, and yet no one complained. I don’t know if people just didn’t notice or if it was just better times then. I’m sure if it were made today you’d hear non-stop complaining from a certain segment of society about it being “woke” (which it is, in a good way) and bad. They even justify the use of terrorism as a tool against oppressive regimes!
DS9 is, by far, the best ST has ever been I think. It’s always been progressive, but almost always in a “things will just work out” sort of way. It didn’t actually deal with how we need to act to create the future we want. It just says that the ideal future is inclusive of everyone, which is great but limited. DS9 wasn’t afraid to say there’s almost no method off limits against (figurative) fascist oppressors and, like you mention, really go to town on roasting capitalists and warning us to be afraid of them.
Nationalist War Glamorization (Dominion Federation War)
The entire last two seasons are nothing but glamorizing a traditional “good vs evil” war with the Federation basically serving the role of a nationalist hegemonic superpower.
I like Deep Space Nine, but to act like it’s anything but the degeneration of Star Trek into its most base capitalist apologia spacewar elements is a stretch.
I have to disagree. DS9 definitely had some problematic episodes, like any show with that many episodes, but the positives IMO definitely outway the negatives especially in the aspects you mention:
Religion is not shown as one dimensional, positive or negative. It’s clearly shown to be abused as a tool to control populations (the Dominion), and as something that can be abused to wield power including religious leaders that obviously don’t follow their own teachings (Kai Winn).
Re war crimes apologia: I give you that, but I’d attribute that to bad writing of some episodes (For the Uniform is simply an awful episode) or is clearly shown as being problematic (e.g. In the Pale Moonlight, and that episode is simply a masterpiece)
Section 31 is never glamorized. On the contrary, Odo clearly calls out the Federation when they don’t want to counteract the genocide of the founders started by Section 31.
War is not glamorized, DS9 is the first Star Trek show to really show what war does to people. Nog’s PTSD, Quark’s take on humankind just as some examples.
Not to forget when they stop a fear-mongering fueled coup attempt on the federation.
I also disagree that it in any way is “capitalist apologia”. While other Star Trek shows are just hand-waving “post scarcity” around without ever explaining how the monetary system of the Federation actually works, and some weak-ass attempts to criticize capitalism with this one guy who had stocks in the 90s on TNG, DS9 clearly and openly attacks capitalism with their characterization of the Ferengi throughout the whole show.
The religion thing I dismiss as just sci-fi magic. Their religion is based on alien stuff. Sure, religions in our world are wrong, but you can’t travel faster than light either so we might as well dismiss the whole show, right?
For example, in Stargate SG1 almost all the civilizations view the gua’uld as gods. When technology is so far beyond your understanding, it’s effectively magic. In that show religion is often said to be wrong, but not for any reason besides the ones they worship are evil. For the Norse people worshiping the “good” aliens it’s fine, and they might as well be gods with their technology.
The people of Bajor interacted with aliens and created a religion to help them understand it. I don’t think that’s apologia. I think that’s a reasonable analogue for what we do too. We don’t understand lighting? It’s God/Thor/Zeus.
It’s impressive how radical DS9 was, and yet no one complained. I don’t know if people just didn’t notice or if it was just better times then. I’m sure if it were made today you’d hear non-stop complaining from a certain segment of society about it being “woke” (which it is, in a good way) and bad. They even justify the use of terrorism as a tool against oppressive regimes!
DS9 is, by far, the best ST has ever been I think. It’s always been progressive, but almost always in a “things will just work out” sort of way. It didn’t actually deal with how we need to act to create the future we want. It just says that the ideal future is inclusive of everyone, which is great but limited. DS9 wasn’t afraid to say there’s almost no method off limits against (figurative) fascist oppressors and, like you mention, really go to town on roasting capitalists and warning us to be afraid of them.
DS9 has
Religion Apologia (Bajoran Prophets)
War Crimes Apologia (Siskos multiple war crimes)
CIA Apologia (Glamorization of Section 31)
Nationalist War Glamorization (Dominion Federation War)
The entire last two seasons are nothing but glamorizing a traditional “good vs evil” war with the Federation basically serving the role of a nationalist hegemonic superpower.
I like Deep Space Nine, but to act like it’s anything but the degeneration of Star Trek into its most base capitalist apologia spacewar elements is a stretch.
I have to disagree. DS9 definitely had some problematic episodes, like any show with that many episodes, but the positives IMO definitely outway the negatives especially in the aspects you mention:
Religion is not shown as one dimensional, positive or negative. It’s clearly shown to be abused as a tool to control populations (the Dominion), and as something that can be abused to wield power including religious leaders that obviously don’t follow their own teachings (Kai Winn).
Re war crimes apologia: I give you that, but I’d attribute that to bad writing of some episodes (For the Uniform is simply an awful episode) or is clearly shown as being problematic (e.g. In the Pale Moonlight, and that episode is simply a masterpiece)
Section 31 is never glamorized. On the contrary, Odo clearly calls out the Federation when they don’t want to counteract the genocide of the founders started by Section 31.
War is not glamorized, DS9 is the first Star Trek show to really show what war does to people. Nog’s PTSD, Quark’s take on humankind just as some examples.
Not to forget when they stop a fear-mongering fueled coup attempt on the federation.
I also disagree that it in any way is “capitalist apologia”. While other Star Trek shows are just hand-waving “post scarcity” around without ever explaining how the monetary system of the Federation actually works, and some weak-ass attempts to criticize capitalism with this one guy who had stocks in the 90s on TNG, DS9 clearly and openly attacks capitalism with their characterization of the Ferengi throughout the whole show.
The religion thing I dismiss as just sci-fi magic. Their religion is based on alien stuff. Sure, religions in our world are wrong, but you can’t travel faster than light either so we might as well dismiss the whole show, right?
For example, in Stargate SG1 almost all the civilizations view the gua’uld as gods. When technology is so far beyond your understanding, it’s effectively magic. In that show religion is often said to be wrong, but not for any reason besides the ones they worship are evil. For the Norse people worshiping the “good” aliens it’s fine, and they might as well be gods with their technology.
The people of Bajor interacted with aliens and created a religion to help them understand it. I don’t think that’s apologia. I think that’s a reasonable analogue for what we do too. We don’t understand lighting? It’s God/Thor/Zeus.