Last month Trump vowed to defend Christianity and urged Christians to vote for him

“This is really a battle between good and evil,” evangelical TV preacher Hank Kunneman says of the slew of criminal charges facing Donald Trump. “There’s something on President Trump that the enemy fears: It’s called the anointing.”

The Nebraska pastor, who was speaking on cable news show “FlashPoint” last summer, is among several voices in Christian media pressing a message of Biblical proportions: The 2024 presidential race is a fight for America’s soul, and a persecuted Trump has God’s protection.

“They’re just trying to bankrupt him. They’re trying to take everything he’s got. They’re trying to put him in prison,” author, media personality and self-proclaimed prophet Lance Wallnau said in October on “The Jim Bakker Show”, an hour-long daily broadcast that focuses on news and revelations about the end times that it says we are living in.

  • Keith
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    6 months ago

    The historical existence of Jesus is not disputed.

      • Jimmybander@champserver.net
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        6 months ago

        Yeah, I totally meant that a man named Jesus never existed.

        Really though, Jesus never turned a man unblind nor a river into wine. It’s all story time in Gallilee.

        • Keith
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          6 months ago

          We aren’t saying Jesus was a messiah or in any way divine, but he was there and did things (probably different from what Christianity claims)

          You can dislike and oppose Christianity w/o denying the fact that Jesus exists.

          • afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world
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            6 months ago

            And? 95% of the humans race believes in some form of God. About 66% of biblical scholars believe the Resurrection was a true historical event as well as the gospel author citations being accurate

            • Keith
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              6 months ago

              Are you being intentionally clueless? The image specifically says “modern scholars”, whereas all of your examples are of unqualified people. Moreover, most scholars of antiquity are not Christian.

              • afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world
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                6 months ago

                Yes modern scholars. The typical modern scholar of the bible believes the events really happened and the attributions are correct.

                How much longer are you going to continue to use the circular logic of something is true because it is believed to be true and it is believed to be true because people believe that it is true?

                Present evidence, not arguments from authority or No True Scotsmen. I can demonstrate vaccines work by data not be invoking some doctor who said something one time.

      • wjrii@lemmy.world
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        6 months ago

        Nobody’s “sure”, but there are enough records and accounts to be reasonably confident that among the many traveling rabbis collecting followers in Roman Judaea was one from Nazareth named Joshua/Jesus, and that he was executed for political activities.

        That’s it though.

        Beyond that, his story is largely a creation of his followers, some of whom were apocalyptically charismatic enough in their own right to keep an ember alive, and eventually it sort of spread among the Jewish diaspora and the military, and happened to be in (relative) ascendance with the latter when an Eastern emperor needed to rethink some political strategies.

        After that, it’s largely survivorship bias, with every hint of writing about him being preserved, transcribed, recreated, or invented from whole cloth, and anything from his contemporary itinerant preachers being ignored or suppressed.

        • kromem@lemmy.world
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          6 months ago

          After that, it’s largely survivorship bias, with every hint of writing about him being preserved, transcribed, recreated, or invented from whole cloth, and anything from his contemporary itinerant preachers being ignored or suppressed.

          Not quite. In fact, there’s a rather significant survivorship bias around the versions of Jesus. Literally the very earliest primary documents involve someone known for persecuting Christians telling Christians in an area he has no authority to persecute that they should abandon other versions of Jesus they accepted or other gospels in favor of the version he claimed based on spiritual visions of someone he never met in life.

          We have nothing but fragments recorded by its critics of the Gospel of the Egyptians, for example, and the Gospel of Thomas we only have because of a single person burying it in a jar around the time it became punishable by death to possess.

          The version of Jesus with female disciples that was talking about Greek atomism and Epicurean proto-evolutionary thought is actually super interesting historically given the overall philosophy, but it’s barely extant and only is because of archeological discoveries after the church lost effectively mega-monarchal status to just become a mega corporation instead.

          And even in the modern era discoveries the church has any purview over like the Mar Saba letter abruptly go missing before it can be further validated by scholars.

          The survivorship around “other versions” of Jesus look like they were conducted by Stalin with a two millennia reach. It involved literally burning down the successor to the library of Alexandria (and with it sources potentially related to a “Gospel of the Egyptians”).

        • afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world
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          6 months ago

          May I see those records? Contemporary first hand please.

          Also I was wondering if you could explain why Paul never mentions Nazareth or anyone else until Mark needs a name of smallest toen he can find in the area. Man, Mark could really set a scene well.

      • Keith
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        6 months ago

        Yes. Was he the son of god or messiah? No. Be he was around and did spread something religious.

    • Socsa@sh.itjust.works
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      6 months ago

      The historical existence of several Jewish reformers of the era baked into a singular allegory is not disputed.

    • kromem@lemmy.world
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      6 months ago

      It’s not worth arguing with the folk that push this narrative.

      If they are as poorly informed to make the argument it’s likely in large part because of an affinity for the concept greater than an affinity for knowledge of any details surrounding it.

      So providing a counterpoint or more details just falls on willfully deaf ears.

      To be fair though, the blame falls more on proselytizers deafening so many ears with their bullshit than on the people with such an acquired distaste for the canonical Jesus that they feel the need to throw out historical Jesus with the bathwater. I definitely get the sentiment, even if the historical Jesus became one of my hyperfocus interests over the past few years.

      • Keith
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        6 months ago

        You don’t have to deny Jesus’ existence, which is overtly true, to deny that what he taught was true— or the same as modern day Christianity

      • Keith
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        6 months ago

        You don’t have to deny Jesus’ existence, which is overtly true, to deny that what he taught was true— or the same as modern day Christianity

              • Keith
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                6 months ago

                Our messiah? accepting Jesus’ existence historically does not mean we are Christians

                • afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world
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                  6 months ago

                  Fine you are not a Christian. Cool. Now do you have evidence of your weakened claim or are you just going to point to other people to make your argument for you?

                  • Keith
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                    6 months ago

                    Why would the assumption be that acknowledging the existence of Jesus makes you Christian? And how is not being Christian weakening my claim?

                    Non-Christian sources used to study and establish the historicity of Jesus include the c. first century Jewish historian Josephus and Roman historian Tacitus. These sources are compared to Christian sources, such as the Pauline letters and synoptic gospels, and are usually independent of each other; that is, the Jewish sources do not draw upon the Roman sources. Similarities and differences between these sources are used in the authentication process.[82][83][84][85] From these two independent sources alone, certain facts about Jesus can be adduced: that he existed, his personal name was Jesus, he was called a messiah, he had a brother named James, he won over Jews and gentiles, Jewish leaders had unfavorable opinions of him, Pontius Pilate decided his execution, he was executed by crucifixion, and he was executed during Pilate’s governorship.[33] Josephus and Tacitus agree on four sequential points: a movement was started by Jesus, he was executed by Pontius Pilate, his movement continued after his death, and that a group of “Christians” still existed; analogous to common knowledge of founders and their followers like Plato and Platonists.[86]

                    Serious historians of the early Christian movement—all of them—have spent many years preparing to be experts in their field. Just to read the ancient sources requires expertise in a range of ancient languages: Greek, Hebrew, Latin, and often Aramaic, Syriac, and Coptic, not to mention the modern languages of scholarship (for example, German and French). And that is just for starters. Expertise requires years of patiently examining ancient texts and a thorough grounding in the history and culture of Greek and Roman antiquity, the religions of the ancient Mediterranean world, both pagan and Jewish, knowledge of the history of the Christian church and the development of its social life and theology, and, well, lots of other things. It is striking that virtually everyone who has spent all the years needed to attain these qualifications is convinced that Jesus of Nazareth was a real historical figure."

                    The idea that Jesus was a purely mythical figure has been and still is considered an untenable fringe theory in academic scholarship for more than two centuries,[note 4] but has gained popular attention in recent decades due to the growth of the internet.[8]

                    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

              • grue@lemmy.world
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                6 months ago

                I don’t give a flying fuck about a “messiah.” I just don’t see any good reason to deny the existence of a historical figure (in this case, a Jewish carpenter who pissed people off and got executed for it) out of pure delusional spite.

                • afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world
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                  6 months ago
                  • total lack of relics
                  • Total lack of any contemporary records
                  • A timeline of events that are way too short and full of contradictions
                  • The ability of anyone with some basic knowledge of the texts at the time to find where each line of the NT was stolen from
                  • The most prolific writer about the guy admits he got his ideas from dreams not from witnesses
                  • No royal lineage established

                  There are reasons to believe the man didn’t exist and you have not provided a single shred of evidence that he did exist.

                  • Pan_Ziemniak@midwest.social
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                    6 months ago

                    From the wiki article “Historocity of Jesus” that youve carefully ignored in other replies. Emphasis courtesy of the secular individual entitled, ‘me.’

                    "The criterion of multiple attestation looks at the number of early sources that mention, and evaluates the reliability of those sources. To establish the existence of a person without any assumptions, one source from one author (either a supporter or opponent) is needed; for Jesus there are at least twelve independent sources from five authors in the first century from supporters and two independent sources from two authors from non-supporters.[29][note 8] There are Christian sources on the person of Jesus (the letters of Paul and the Gospels) and there are also Jewish and Roman sources (e.g. Josephus, Suetonius, Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, and rabbinic tradition[which?]) that mention Jesus,[2][31][32][33] and there are also many apocryphal texts that are examples of the wide variety of writings from early Christianity. These additional sources are independent sources on Jesus’s existence, and corroborate details found in other surviving sources as a “bedrock of historical tradition”.[33][34] Contemporary non-Christian sources in the first and second century never deny the existence of Jesus,[35] and there is also no indication that Pagan or Jewish writers in antiquity who opposed Christianity questioned the existence of Jesus.[36][37][33] Taking into consideration that sources on other first century individuals from Galilee were also written by either supporters or enemies as well, the sources on Jesus cannot be dismissed.[29][38]

                    […]

                    Historiographical approaches associated with the study of the poor in the past, such as microhistory, can help assess what type of sources can be reasonably expected in the historical record for individuals like Jesus. For instance, Justin Meggitt argues that since most people in antiquity left no sign of their existence, especially the poor, it is unreasonable to expect non-Christian sources to corroborate the specific existence of someone with Jesus’s socio-economic status.[52] Ehrman argues that the historical record for the first century was so lacking that no contemporary eyewitness reports for prominent individuals such as Pontius Pilate or Josephus survive.[53] Theissen and Merz observe that even if ancient sources were to be silent on any individual, they would not impact their historicity since there are numerous instances of people whose existence is never doubted and yet were not mentioned by contemporary authors. For instance, Paul is not mentioned by Josephus or non-Christian sources; John the Baptist is not mentioned by Paul, Philo, or rabbinic writings; Rabbi Hillel is not mentioned by Josephus - despite him being a Pharisee; Bar Kochba, a leader of the Jewish revolt against the Romans is not mentioned by Dio Cassius in his account of the revolt.[54] With at least 14 sources by believers and nonbelievers within a century of the crucifixion, there is much more evidence available for Jesus than for other notable people from 1st century Galilee.[55] Non-Christian sources do exist and they corroborate some details of the life of Jesus that are also found in New Testament sources.[33] Historian Michael Grant argues that when the New Testament is analyzed with the same criteria used by historians on ancient writings that contain historical material, Jesus’s existence cannot be denied anymore than secular figures whose existence is never questioned.[56

                    […]

                    The seven Pauline epistles considered by scholarly consensus to be genuine were written in a span of a decade starting in the late 40s (i.e., approximately 20 to 30 years after the generally accepted time period of Jesus’s death) and are the earliest surviving Christian texts that include information about Jesus.[40] Although Paul the Apostle provides relatively little biographical information about Jesus[70] and states that he never knew Jesus personally, he does make it clear that he considers Jesus to have been a real person[note 13] and a Jew.[71][72][73][74][note 14] Moreover, he interacted with eyewitnesses of Jesus since he wrote about meeting and knowing James, the brother of Jesus[75][note 15][note 10] and Jesus’s apostles Peter[77][note 16] and John.[79] Additionally, there are independent sources (Mark, John, Paul, Josephus) affirming that Jesus actually had brothers.[80] Craig A. Evans and Ehrman argue that Paul’s letters are among the earliest sources that provide a direct link to people who lived with and knew Jesus since Paul was personally acquainted with Peter and John, two of Jesus’s original disciples, and James, the brother of Jesus.[46][77] Paul’s first meeting with Peter was around 36 AD.[77] Paul is the earliest surviving source to document Jesus’ death by crucifixion and his conversion occurred two years after this event.[40] Paul mentioned details in his letters such as that Jesus was a Jew, born of the line of David, and had biological brothers.[40] According to Simon Gathercole, Paul’s description of Jesus’s life on Earth, his personality, and family tend to establish that Paul regarded Jesus as a natural person, rather than an allegorical figure.[81]

                    […]

                    Non-Christian sources used to study and establish the historicity of Jesus include the c. first century Jewish historian Josephus and Roman historian Tacitus. These sources are compared to Christian sources, such as the Pauline letters and synoptic gospels, and are usually independent of each other; that is, the Jewish sources do not draw upon the Roman sources. Similarities and differences between these sources are used in the authentication process.[82][83][84][85] From these two independent sources alone, certain facts about Jesus can be adduced: that he existed, his personal name was Jesus, he was called a messiah, he had a brother named James, he won over Jews and gentiles, Jewish leaders had unfavorable opinions of him, Pontius Pilate decided his execution, he was executed by crucifixion, and he was executed during Pilate’s governorship.[33] Josephus and Tacitus agree on four sequential points: a movement was started by Jesus, he was executed by Pontius Pilate, his movement continued after his death, and that a group of “Christians” still existed; analogous to common knowledge of founders and their followers like Plato and Platonists.[86] Jesus is referenced by Josephus twice, once in Book 18 and once in Book 20 of Antiquities of the Jews, written around AD 93 to 94. On the first reference, the general scholarly view holds that the longer passage, known as the Testimonium Flavianum, in Book 18 most likely consists of an authentic nucleus that was subjected to later Christian interpolation or forgery.[87][88] On the second reference, Josephus scholar Louis H. Feldman states that “few have doubted the genuineness” of the reference found in Antiquities 20, 9, 1 to “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James”.[89][90][91][92] Tacitus, in his Annals (written c. AD 115), book 15, chapter 44,[93] describes Nero’s scapegoating of the Christians following the Fire of Rome. He writes that the founder of the sect was named Christus (the Christian title for Jesus); that he was executed under Pontius Pilate; and that the movement, initially checked, broke out again in Judea and even in Rome itself.[94] The scholarly consensus is that Tacitus’ reference to the execution of Jesus by Pilate is both authentic and of historical value as an independent Roman source.[95][96][97]

      • Keith
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        6 months ago

        Obviously there are fringe cases. His existence (not his role as Messiah— you seem to be conflating the two) is not disputed by modern scholars of antiquity.

      • Keith
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        6 months ago

        You don’t have to deny Jesus’ existence, which is overtly true, to deny that what he taught was true— or the same as modern day Christianity

          • Keith
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            6 months ago

            How is “some guy existed and said something about religion but idk what he said” extraordinary?

            • afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world
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              6 months ago

              Very well. Explain where all the traditions about his acts and sayings came from. There is evidence of attestation and you should be able to address that.

              Because the whole thing is a con explanation does address that. They were running a grift and that was it. Of course the stories and sayings are all mixed up, liars need amazing memories. And of course the Jerusalem church was doing well they could draw in the crowds each week with yet another amazing adventure of Jesus.