The bad, although expected news is that according to Similarweb via Gizmodo Reddit traffic is back to pre-protest levels. The caveat is that some of the traffic might still indicate protests, (i.e. John Oliver pics). Most interesting:
However, Similarweb told Gizmodo traffic to the ads.reddit.com portal, where advertisers can buy ads and measure their impact, has dipped. Before the first blackout began, the ads site averaged about 14,900 visits per day. Beginning on June 13, though, the ads site averaged about 11,800 visits per day, a 20% decrease.
For June 20 and 21, the most recent days for which Similarweb has estimates, the ads site got in the range of 7,500 to 9,000 visits, Carr explained, meaning that ad-buying traffic has continued to drop.>>>
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They can stick their api up their ass, i want them to burn.
That’s my position too now. Until a week ago or so, I was holding out hope that reddit would change course and work something out with the app developers, now I hope reddit burns and turns into a complete shit heap.
Thanks to /u/Spez for opening his mouth, and to the admins for how they “handled” the protests.
This is exactly my thought process. They chose every wrong way to handle this possible. I was there almost a decade, but now I’m trying to find my new “home.” There’s no going back anymore.
I want to raze it to the ground - preferable during the IPO. The shares of spez shall be no more worth then toilet paper.
That will be the true test.
Basically the protests are still working. Even the John Oliver ones - reddit has to pay expenses to handle the traffic but are getting fewer revenue in response.
Keep up the good work people!
Even if it doesn’t happen now will slowly happen if people keep moving over here and more content is posted and more involvement happens. Keep it up peoples
However: Getting through with their API changes will earn them more money/reduce costs in the long run, so it will return profitable for them anyway.
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There are apps going to pay, also providing an API has been cost intensive for Reddit. It’s not as simple as you make it seem I‘m afraid.
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I don‘t like your tone so I‘ll refrain from further participation in this discussion. Bye
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There’s nothing wrong with their tone. Seems like you just don’t like being questioned about your empirical claims that you’ve provided no supporting evidence for.
None afaik. Only one I heard about that was going to give it a go was Relay but in the end it doesn’t matter.
The dev tried so hard but couldn’t make it work.
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Infinity is going to a paid subscription model
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Yeah. I’d rather pay to support a kbin or lemmy instance. Especially if it were a cooperative or something like that.
I don’t think any apps are going to be able to afford to pay. They purposefully priced it too high to be viable. At the start there was a few who seemed to tentatively say they’d look in to it, but every app I’ve seen now has done the math a realized there’s just no way.
At least Pushshift made a deal with Reddit and other Accessibility apps are exempt from the payment. If their idea is to push third party apps off the market, that only supports the fact that API access is too expensive for Reddit to provide to said apps.
If their idea is to push third party apps off the market, that only supports the fact that API access is too expensive for Reddit to provide to said apps.
That’s naive. Pushing 3rd party apps out isn’t about the costs to reddit, it’s the opportunity costs of not being able to mine data from users, and is likely being driven by Steve Huffingpaint in the hopes of driving up the IPO price before bailing on reddit with a golden parachute.
Current reddit admins don’t give a shit about the long term health of the platform, and the fact that people believe their lies about costs instead of seeing that theyre playing the user base just like they did back with Pao.
The amount they’re looking for does not line up with any reasonable cost estimates. It’s not a number created based on cost. Based on spez’s comments, it’s clear he’s upset some apps found out how to reliably make money from their users and is just shutting them down.
u/spez out here really grasping at straws
Can you actually backup that “There are apps going to pay”? Because I’ve seen users say they’d pay, but no apps say the same.
And lol, if you think the API is cost intensive, you don’t understand the costs inherent to alternatives to an API. It’s much more cost efficient to provide an API that you can effectively limit and use minimal resources to respond to a query vs web scraping which is objectively more resource intensive (with the webpage overhead the API doesn’t have) and doesn’t have nearly as good rate limiting or the protections an API has.
It’s much more cost efficient to provide an API
Apps using reddit’s API (e.g. Apollo) don’t display reddit’s ads. Imagine you run a bar & serve free beer. You can do this with this one simple trick: constantly spamming ads on every TV (display panel) in your bar. Advertisers pay for the beer & your overheads.
Along comes a guy with a garden hose, sticks it in your keg, and starts siphoning your beer to the bar he built across the street. His place is much better than yours, the alcoholics don’t have to watch ads to get drunk.
wat do?
web scraping which is objectively more resource intensive
Pretty sure app devs are not not_scraping out of concern for reddit. If they could, they would (I know I would).
I don’t think your analogy works, and here’s why.
In that analogy, Reddit provides the beer, but in reality it doesn’t.
It owns the building, but what the customers are consuming are other customer’s beers. It doesn’t have to serve the beer, people being some on their way in.
And in that analogy, yeah, the third-party apps are not on premises, so they can’t watch the ads that pay for the building…
But they brought more clients to the bar. They advertised the heck out of the bar, especially when it was growing, and they pump beer back in the bar. It costs Reddit in ad revenue and in facility maintenance (they built the pipes themselves), but they absolutely get back things through the pipes, it’s just not straight money.Reddit wasn’t build by Reddit. They own the place, that’s all.
Reddit provides the beer, but in reality it doesn’t.
OK, substitute “kegs” for “beer.” Kegs (servers) & staff to run them costs, and reddit wants to stop subsidizing the bar across the street (3rd-party apps). Honestly see nothing wrong with that. Was cutting off the subsidies in this fashion a good business decision? Don’t know, bad at money stuff.
Fairly certain RIF scrapes. That’s why it grabs “pages” of content. Beyond that, most reasonable folks don’t think the API needs to continue to be free. It’s just ridiculously cost prohibitive. Many services offer APIs that cost money. It’s just Reddit’s costs aren’t based in a reality dictated by cost. It’s created to force large apps offline. We’ll see how long infinity lasts. It’ll likely cost significantly more than reddit premium. Wouldn’t be surprised if it’s 50% more.
RIF scrapes.
So API not an issue?
force large apps offline.
Sure, 3rd party apps break reddit’s business model.
Reddit chooses not to provide an advertising interface to API users. The app devs don’t even have the option of running Reddit ads.
This is not about ads. If it was, Reddit would provide an advertising mechanism and require use of it as part of the TOS for API access.
I think Infinity is going to pay if someone subscribes. The description in the Play Store is:
Starting from July 1st, Reddit API will be pay-per-use for 3rd-party clients.
In order to survive this change, Infinity will become a subscription-only app after July 1st. Learn more: https://www.reddit.com/r/Infinity_For_Reddit/comments/147bhsg/the_future_of_infinity
It’s required for you to update Infinity after July 1st. None of the previous versions (including this one) will work after July 1st. Due to a tight timeline, the update may not be available immediately on July 1st.
Which app developers have indicated they will pay the demanded rates?
At least Infinity is
There’s no cost effective way for someone to make a useful app and pay the API costs. It’s only possibly feasible to enterprises for LLM training. It’s like Twitter’s API cost. There’s simply no cost effective business model for a publicly released app.
One of the reasons they are doing this is because of the large language models being implemented. These companies are using Reddit to train the models. The reason is because of the voting on replies. Where else can you get millions of questions being answered with actual humans saying how good a response is?
The big boys in the current AI space will definitely pay for the API. They’ll likely pay a lot for it as well.
Why pay the bloated and gouging costs for API access when you can just write a web parser and scrape the site the old fashioned way?
Scrapers can easily be disabled. Reddit won’t look the same obviously. But this isn’t a real obstacle.
then the scrapers start using residential proxy botnets
Then you just force them to change the syntax repeatedly and scraping will break with regular occurrence. Scraping is extremely fragile and not easily adaptable without human effort which costs money.
There is no reason other apps need to be swept up in the same cost structure as LLM enterprises.
Exactly, the LLM excuse is just that, an excuse to purge 3rd party apps and push ads/get user data that is otherwise unavailable to them.
They may not need to. Already trained, already got the data that they need. Going forward they can just continue training with the input from
The users (all the folks talking to ChatGPT directly for example).
So is the traffic useful traffic, or is it people lurking on 3rd party apps while those work, commenting about alternatives and popping over to crosspost Reddit’s stuff?
This notes a chunk of the increase is the protest posts. What does interaction look like when you take away those and all the bots? Did they make a few more to make up the loss of several hundred thousands of their most invested users? Because bots can’t click ads.
I know nobody new is going to join reddit after seeing the headlines and, having joined, the progressively shitty atmosphere makes them less likely to stay
increase is the protest posts
Posts are posts, clicks are clicks, all grist for the mill. From the article:
“traffic is up in subreddits expressing their discontent with photos of Oliver. Traffic to r/pics, for example, is up 564% compared with last month, while traffic to r/Aww is up 152%”
The question now becomes, what does traffic look like once everyone is burned out on Johnny O?
once everyone is burned out on Johnny O?
Dunno, but doubt users currently posting & clicking maymays of the now will get bored & come up with a new forms of ‘protest’ (which, you guessed it, will also involve posting, scrooling & clicking on reddit).
There’s probably some number of those users that 'll stop posting in a week when their apps stop working. I can only speak for me, but I probably won’t be bored of Mr. Oliver yet will definitely stop contributing to traffic.
stop posting in a week when their apps stop working
Don’t you need a paid version of Apollo to create threads (honestly don’t know, never used it)? Users of 3rd party apps don’t see reddit’s ads (neither do i, old.reddit & adblocker), so aren’t high value users for reddit. Will see how this plays out, here’s hoping this place keeps growing.
Users of 3rd party apps don’t see reddit’s ads …, so aren’t high value users for reddit
But they are. That is, in fact, the whole point around the API issue. These are high value, but un-monetized users, and Reddit wants to monetize them.
Don’t you need a paid version of Apollo…
I’m on Android using Sync, so I’m afraid I have no idea.
so aren’t high value users for reddit
I’m going to have to disagree with that point. I don’t see ads, but I have disposable income and am willing to pay for a good experience. Unfortunately, reddit’s official app is miserable to use, and if I’m dealing with a buggy experience, I’d rather be here.
Posts are posts, clicks are clicks,
That’s the thing. Spez doesn’t give a shit what people post. He cares that people are interesting and ultimately being served ads.
Leaving is the only protest that the reddit overlords will care about.
It seems like the exact breakdown isn’t known but certainly without the protest traffic the traffic would be down by a significant chunk still.
Ad-buying traffic is roughly half of what it was pre-blackout? That’s huge, and IMO should have been in the article’s headline.
Reddit declined to comment on the traffic analysis from Similarweb.
Of course lol, keep up the good fight!
Let’s understand that Reddit has spent over a decade enjoying its status as a world-leading platform while kicking the ‘we’ll figure out how to monetize later’ can down the road. Along the way, some important social questions have arrived and Reddit is still failing to show leadership in this matter. Let me explain:
Those that say Reddit ‘will continue on’ aren’t looking at the situation through the lens of history. At its core, ‘Reddit is a rare social product that has seemed to become more relevant over time, as a growing user base comes to appreciate its distinctive, human-centered approach to digital conversations.’ A digital third place, built on mutually-shared beliefs and principals of digital altruism – Reddit existed to Give People Voices – aiming to create a safe space for all viewpoints.
So that’s what Reddit is supposed to do as a ‘platform.’ What about Reddit as a ‘company?’ Sadly, boardroom shenanigans have pursued Reddit throughout its entire lifecycle. Reddit lost the public-spirited people like Aaron Swartz, and gained trolls, hate groups, and the soap opera that was the Ellen Pao debacle. As Will Durant said: ‘A great civilization is not conquered from without, until it has destroyed itself from within.’
Actions this year by Reddit have pushed it much farther down the path of ‘less user-oriented.’ Worse, public statements and private actions by the company leave nothing to doubt when it comes to their intentions. “We’ll continue to be profit-driven until profits arrive,” Steve Huffman the CEO of Reddit, wrote in a recent AMA.
Spez’ decisions have ripped the guts out of Reddit’s understood social identity and community intent. Those public statements and private actions by the company I mentioned earlier? They aren’t there to make Reddit a more human-centered place. Monetizing API use won’t increase Reddit’s stature as a ‘a safe space for all viewpoints.’ Like when managers decided to launch the Challenger space shuttle, “the concerns about the O-rings that ultimately led to the explosion were buried in a vast sea of thousands of other decisions … leading up to the ill-fated launch.”
Risks don’t rely on your perspective for existence. “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away,” as Philip K. Dick famously said. This recent Reddit move to monetize APIs creates major cracks in its foundations of digital altruism and human-centered behavior. As I said last year with Twitter: “Twitter has every chance to prove to us that it can be a safe, responsible place for us to interact with our readers if they want to. In the meantime, it’s getting too weird around here. I’m mustering at the life boat station now, in case we must abandon ship.”
Wait until after the proposed changes took effect. A portion of that traffic is due to content creators saving multiple years’ worth of their posts before pulling them from the site permanently, and once that’s done and they close their accounts, this type of traffic will die. The same applies to redditors trying to save as much content as possible from other people while they still CAN access the site, as a last minute tactic to not lose access to guides, videos, advice etc… Of course that leads to more interaction with the site - temporarily.
(For example, it took me 3 full days to save and then delete most of my posts and I’m still working through the comments. I currently definitely interact with reddit way more than usual, but this will stop once I’m done and disable my account)
I can not say how big that portion really is tho, but it IS something to keep in mind with the current situation. Not all current traffic is “business as usual”.
Interesting… not surprising the majority don’t care. (Admittedly, i only put up with reddit until now because i wasn’t aware of the alternatives which the latest foofaraw revealed).
i’ve fully migrated to kbin (replaced my reddit feeds with kbin rss feeds into miniflux for a completely transparent migration… like nothing ever happened, except the noise went down along with toxicity and no intrusive ads).
Glad to be here with people who care about their discussion platform.
What you mean kbin RSS feeds?
kbin magazines can be retrieved as an rss feed – at the bottom of the magazine’s web page is the recognizable “rss icon” which contains the url of the rss feed (the icon near the top for lemmy community web pages). i use these rss urls with my miniflux aggregator to group kbin/lemmy magazines/communities into more digestible subject categories – very useful during this early period when there are multiple magazines for the same topic.
As nice as the kbin webpage looks, even tweaked with the appropriate userscripts, i prefer browsing topics with the minimalistic category oriented UI of miniflux (which works both on the desktop and the mobile device).
I never click on ads anyway. Is it okay for me to start using Reddit, at least a little, or should I continue not to give traffic to them?
You do you. Whatever works best for your life imo. I will no longer browse Reddit, I will never download their app. If a question I google seems to ONLY have a solution on Reddit, I will only view it on browser (old.Reddit, ad blocker, logged out).
I think the release of [email protected] in about a month or so will seal the deal for lemmy for me, and probably many others.
Sync for Lemmy’s release is not nearly as well known as it should be though fsr…
There’s also Memmy for ios inspired by apollo, and I hear it’s being developed insanely fast
I’ve been using kbin as I prefer it aesthetically and functionally over Lemmy, and the mobile browser functions pretty well. But I do use Memmy and Mlem to check in on Lemmy stuff, and while they’re very bare bones I can see them becoming useful.
You don’t have to click on ads to give them money, impressions still count. You can use uBlock Origin, but they’ll probably still make money from the traffic as they show off their number of visits to advertisers
There is nothing that’ll make me want to go back. Spez burned that bridge, even if 3rd party apps are saved at this point. Fuck that place and fuck their IPO.
Measure of traffic is not a good indicator, since unmoderated subreddits will be full of trolls and chaos, generating traffic.
