Went to a metal concert last year for a huge, well known band. The number of punisher/warrior, thin blue line, militia-styled ragged flag, Gadsden shirts and hats was off the charts.
In my younger days metal was anti-authoritarianism, anti-cop, anti-conformity… now these clowns are the ones who want to be holding the riot batons, the body armor, and support the very fascists we hated.
I got plenty of grey hair, the crowd around me didn’t so I’m thinking there’s a generational shift to metal going fascist.
Your comment reminds me of Metallica many years ago. Their first albums were really good I thought. Then they cut their hair, their music started to sound more mainstream and I heard from friends that the band kind apologized for the anti war lyrics on their earlier albums. I guess money talks in strange ways.
Funny enough they still play those same anti-war songs off the early albums. Play what pays so they can ride around in their private jets.
Edit:
I did some digging. AJFA - One to most anyone objectively is about the horrors of war. The music video opens with the sounds and images of war. Lyrics say the war is done with the speaker in the story. It’s zero distance to understand that the person in the video suffered their wounds as a result of that war. The lyrics literally say a Landmine caused the wounds.
However, Hetfield walked back that imagery and the lyrics to mean:
In a Howard Stern Interview, James states that the song isn’t inherently anti-war, but the lyrics were rather about the feeling of being trapped in your own body and feeling like you’re unable to interact with the world around you and express yourself and speak your mind and feelings.
So it’s not an apology, he’s retconning the song to this instead of what pretty much everyone legitimately understood it to be about.
Also, regarding Don’t Tread On Me, what people associated with the Gadsden Flag:
Hetfield said the song was a reaction to the anti-American tone of their album …And Justice for All - “This is the other side of that. America is a fucking good place. I definitely think that. And that feeling came about from touring a lot. You find out what you like about certain places and you find out why you live in America, even with all the bad fucked-up shit. It’s still the most happening place to hang out.”
Hetfield also said “Don’t Tread On Me, I love the song, but it shocked a lot of people, because everyone thought it was pro-war when they thought we were anti-war, and alls we’re doing is writing songs, we’re not standing politically on any side. “Don’t Tread On Me” was just one of those ‘don’t fuck with us’ songs, and obviously referencing the flag and the snake and what it meant, that all tied into the black album and the snake icon on the album cover, and I think it’s great to play that song live. We’re over here in Europe playing it, and people aren’t appalled by the songs. We haven’t played it in Iraq or Iran yet, though.”
It sounds a lot to me like Hetfield is softballing pandering to right wing fans he doesn’t want to offend and/or personal beliefs that lean Right. He completely disregards the obvious anti-war sentiment in AJFA with “Oh, you all thought we were anti-war? We’re not pro-war, we’re pro-America.” If that isn’t some Chauvanistic Nationalism I don’t know what is.
Anyway, I don’t know one way or the other, but considering the crowd’s fashion choices at the event and his unwillingness to just say “war is bullshit”, which you can do apolitically, I figure Metallica, or at least Hetfield, support right wing ideologies.
E2: another interview where Hetfield says why he left the Bay Area:
*There was an elitist attitude there that if you weren’t their way politically, their way environmentally, all of that, that you were looked down upon. *
So by inference and the preponderance of evidence, he’s probably right wing.
You know you’re in a room full of true metal heads when everyone has distinctly point to when metallica started to suck, especially if they all point to different albums.
Metallica died after Cliff died, that dude was the heart of the band. If you read up on Burton you’ll find musical crossover with Martin of the great Faith No More.
In addition to ‘One’, don’t forget the great ‘Disposable Heroes’. Totally sold out with the Black Album and thereafter.
I know I’m not a “true metalhead” because I never cared about the culture, I only cared about the music. As far as I can tell, metallica still makes banger music. I am not an authority on this subject.
I’m not much of a metal head anymore but it was the first genre I was really into when I started developing my own taste in music.
They’re not really for me but they’re definitely still one of the biggest bands in the world with millions of fans and I’m not gonna tell all those people they don’t have any taste in music you know? To each their own.
Right? Of all people our veterinarian wears a Mjölnir necklace…I had to do a triple take to make sure he wasn’t a supremacist asshole, but no, he’s a legit Norwegian who likes Nordic style in general. He wears a Dragestil belt with silver inlay, some tattoos too. Cool guy. Sad that my first thought was wondering if he was a nazi supremacist because the symbols have been usurped and corrupted.
As an Icelander who still practices the old customs this drives me nuts. These scum lack the basic imagination to come up with their own logos so they steal our symbols? Fuck that.
I just wish one of the Kardashians or some influencer would go big on Nordic symbology and bring it to the mainstream. Maybe it would lose its appeal to these fucks.
That’s the thing, isn’t it? All these extremists steal other people’s stuff and corrupt it to their own purposes. Nazis did it. Religions did it. Supremacists are doing it with Nordic cultural symbols.
Yeah there are people who think (sterotypical) Vikings are their true “white” heritage and end up harassing anyone they don’t like out of fanbases for viking-related bands. Heilung, for example, had to publicly state that those kind of people are not welcome after some of them were harrassing a woman for having the “wrong” skin color to be able to participate at one of their shows. These guys haven’t yet figured out that their bigotry is the exact opposite beliefs of the vast majority of the pagan/viking/etc communities.
Speaking of which, does anyone know anything about Brothers of Metal’s political position (or lack of)? They barely seem to have an online presence at all, like a ghost of sick riffs and cheesy viking costumes.
I find that whenever I go to metal shows, most people are very kind, polite and free of bigotry. Maybe what you’re describing is a US thing, or maybe it’s just that Metallica is a super mainstream band which attracts more dickheads than your average metal show.
I know metalheads have a history of gatekeeping, and keeping these fascists away from the scene should be priority #1.
I can only offer what I experienced at the show I attended. Metallica was touring with Five Finger Death Punch, a very much right-wing “military rock” band that just sucks IMO. They straight up dog whistled the right wingers in the crowd using a lot of “there’s something wrong in this country” type of commentary. Metallica bringing them on tour doesn’t really change my growing opinion that Metallica supports right wing ideology. My understanding of the greater Metal crowd is that they are indeed good people, I went to an Industrial Metal concert a few weeks back and it was free of the iconography I saw at the Metallica show, and everyone was great. We had a good time. It was also the loudest show I think I’ve ever been to. Thank goodness for earplugs, lol.
Yeah I think it was either before Metallica, or early days. I’ve tried to find a picture, but they’ve done a good job of scrubbing it from the Internet. I know my source is “trust me bro” at this point lol, but I swear I’ve seen it multiple times years ago
You’re right, it’s not to be found. Eh, after a little poking around they did a nazi salute, too. You can still see that image. Be willing to bet the swastika and salute were both “fuck you” for lols and not any personal affiliation.
Which creates a space where people with personal affiliations get away with it and gather.
And then when called out on their shit, tell the “for the lulz” crowd that people are coming for their freedom.
I’ve never understood the popularity of FFDP. “War is the Answer” is their best album by a heavy margin and it’s just… Fine? Like it’s listenable, I can listen to it without being bored. At the end of the day it makes me wish I was listening to Avenged Sevenfold, Shinedown, or Killswitch Engage.
But the rest of their music is unbelievably boring. Their covers of other people’s music is their best work, probably because they can’t write interesting music.
That’s crazy, around here I saw a guy get his ass thrown out of a metal bar for having a burzum patch last month. They also forced a guy to either leave, invert his vest or remove a mayhem patch. The scene here is pretty intensely antifascist.
Considering the size of the crowd I don’t think anyone was throwing anyone out at the event I attended. I mentioned elsewhere that Five Finger Death Punch was part of the act, and they are absolutely right wing. Anyway, from the conversation here and the reading I did about Metallica/Hetfield, I’m forming the opinion that Metallica is different than the metal bands that everyone is talking about, partially because of their fame and visibility. They’re the rich old white men of Metal, and all the get off my lawn that goes with it.
Oh, I don’t like metal and still considered them to be a mostly apolitical group of weird nerds. But it probably fits to the general trend of neonazis trying to infiltrate and overtake other subcultures. Oi! just doesn’t draw large crowds I guess, probably Punk rock in general is not such a big thing anymore?
I was addressing that Neonazis usurped the Skinhead subculture for a long time. The skinhead subculture is part of the punkrock scene. Most of punkrock was always leftist though, at least here in Europe. I think you’ll have to try hard to find a rightwing skinhead nowadays though. A switch towards Metal sounds like an almost natural thing for the neonazi scene. Metalfans should try their best to stop that or it might destroy the whole subculture.
Depends on what wave of skinheads you’re talking about. Skinheads emerged in the UK in working class urban communities in the late sixties. They were influenced by the early sixties mod scene, the Jamaican rude boy scene, a strong identity towards their working class roots that alienated them against the government and the then middle class hippie lifestyle. As they were in working class areas in urban Britain, they were also rubbing shoulders with working class black people who brought with them their West Indian music and dress style. Ska Music and reggae were big influences on the tastes of first wave skinheads. In this way, it’s ironic that the second wave of skinheads in the late seventies and beyond got involved with fascist politics, considering its working class multicultural roots.
I’m not sure you can say that skinheads were an offshoot of punk, at least not the first wave of skinheads, as skinheads predate punk by nearly a decade. As I mentioned above, the first skinheads were interested in ska, reggae and other music from West Indian roots. They were more an offshoot of the early sixties mods, with added interest in black working class styles and music.
The second wave came around when punk was in the ascendency in the late seventies, and that is where Oi music is based on. But Oi and the second wave’s interest in fascism is certainly not what skinheads were originally about. The birth of Oi was convenient in a way for the likes of the fascist National Front in the UK, who were heavily recruiting amongst the skinheads in the late seventies, as it pulled skinheads away from that “problematic” (for the fascists) black music. I mean, there’d be a conflict of interest if you’re heavily influenced by black music and styles and yet want to “send the foreigners back where they came from”. In many ways Oi was a betrayal of the skinhead scene.
It’s a bit muddy, it’s been a few years since the whole skinhead/punk thing was more closely related. I do remember that there wasn’t much visual difference between Punks and Skinheads unless you got the Punks were wearing their full getup with mohawks and basically had hair, whereas the skinheads really didn’t, obviously because “skinhead”. I always associated skinheads with being racists or nazi-types, but they also (at least in my experience here) were also anti-authority and often leaned hard into anarchy, too. So definitely some overlap with Punk.
I have no idea about the skinhead culture these days in the US, or what it aligns itself with. Can’t imagine anyone affording a pair of Doc Martens, and plus they’re low quality chinese made now.
I don’t know if there’s anything to be done at this point. There were 80,000-ish in attendance for the sold-out Metallica show. The people wearing right-wing stuff were everywhere, plus flying right wing thin blue line and Gadsden flags while tailgating in the venue parking lot.
AFAIK in France skinhead and Neonazi are basically synonymes, but I’m not big on this subculture thing, and this probably depends by country/language. But please don’t go there calling yourself a skinhead lol
Yeah, as I said “Neonazis usurped the Skinhead subculture” in the 80s. There have always been apolitical and left wing skinheads, though. Nowadays the Skinhead subculture seems to be mostly dead (the whole punk scene has declined massively) and the few remaining appear to be almost completly apolitical and left wing.
It makes sense that those types would join the punk /metal scene. It’s a scene made up of those on the fringes of society who are rebelling against authority (regardless of what that authority may be) and who are willing to accept anyone like them.
I’ve met plenty of LGBT, geeks, on the spectrum and otherwise different folk who are part of the punk and metal scenes.
I’ve met plenty of LGBT, geeks, on the spectrum, and otherwise different folk who are a part of the punk and metal scenes
Me too.
I was volunteering with an anarchist mutual aid group and one of the volunteers was wearing a punk war vest (idk if punks have their own term for it, I’m a metal head) with a variety of punk patches and queer buttons.
Maybe it’s just a symptom of only seeing shows in a city with a good radical scene, but most people I’ve met are completely normal and don’t have any concerning things like a punisher tattoo or a thin blue line shirt, etc.
It makes sense that those types would join the punk /metal scene.
They are since 40+ years, The skinhead subculture is part of the punk scene. And Neonazis usurped that subculture for a long time (not so much nowadays though).
To a lot of young people, myself included. The authority, or at least the authority we interact with- is progressive. So something like a thin blue line flag is rejecting that authority. Also the Gadsden flag has always been anti-authority.
I didn’t say to everyone, I said to a lot of people that is the current dominant ideology from people in positions of authority that they interact with.
Yeah. To a lot of young, vulnerable people who are less minoritized, progressives feel like the authority. You’re told you’re privileged, but you don’t feel it. This is partially because we take our personal experiences for granted, but also because even the relatively privileged struggle. Some people suffer more from the system than others, but a ton of things suck for everyone.
Unfortunately, the promises of the right are a monkey’s paw at best, or a scam at worst. Even if the right succeeds, they usually make things worse for everyone in the process, even themselves.
Especially because average privilege accross a demographic says nothing of a given individuals privilege.
But I think that’s not the only reason people feel this way, but also because for the people we interact with they are the authority. Most of my teachers were progressive, anti-capitalist, and ERFs(I don’t know about trans exclusionary since they never talked about it)- but said ridiculous things like “men can’t get raped”. This might’ve been just my school, but especially amongst girls, anyone suspected of being “conservative” was bullied. I wasn’t conservative but was pretty argumentative, and I have someone email my school email thanking me for saying what they wanted to say but were too scared to.
Remember for a lot of people my age, early 20s and late teens, when we were growing up people who made funny memes(like from our perspectives Alex Jones or whoever) were being banned while the inverse wasn’t happening.
I went through a phase where I felt the exact same way. My upbringing was left wing and becoming more conservative felt like rebellion. I was never really that right wing, but I was convinced that conservatives must have some valid points. After all, how could half the country be wrong on almost everything?
Unfortunately for conservatives, I never stopped questioning, never stopped pushing ideas to their limits. In doing so, I independently came to many of the same left wing viewpoints I grew up with, only stronger and more resilient. I realized that my parents were actually right, while I was wrong.
More importantly, I realized that conservative ideas did make sense, but not at face value. Conservatives are inconsistent and contradictory because they aren’t expressing their motivations explicitly. They often aren’t aware of their actual reasoning, but there is logic behind their views. The logic is usually very cynical and cruel, dehumanizing people and valuing identity over principles.
I used to think somewhat like you, until I applied a critical lens to conservative ideas in the same way I had investigated familiar progressive ideas. Now I’m a trans woman who’s farther left than every elected representative in congress. I still believe in almost all of the leftist ideas I was raised with, only I’ve pushed them farther than my parents ever did.
Right now you’re critical of progressives, and often you spot valid flaws, but are you willing to continue? Are you willing to peer deeper into reality; to open your eyes to fundamental truths? That was my strategy, and it took me from naive progressive, to rebellious centrist, to the eventual woke queen I am today.
I continue to awaken to new truths, mostly because I like doing it. I like the feeling of discovery and understanding. Thanks to my efforts, I’ve found likely answers to humanity’s biggest questions, raised my base happiness levels from constantly suicidal to never hopeless, and became way smarter than I thought I’d ever be. I think most people can learn what I’ve learned if they apply themselves, but it’s still a tough journey. Are you willing to take it?
I appreciate you sharing, but I think you’re misunderstanding me and what I was saying. I am not conservative, nor am I progressive. My point was just that progressivism was the dominant ideology of authority in most of my upbringing. Being the authority ideology doesn’t inherently make it wrong, or its “designated opposition” right. I have a few fundamental values that are based(like I think deep down probably everyones) on my intuition and emotion. I then try to interpret how certain things align with those values. Its true that probably at least some of the basis for those values were initially rebelliousness- but that doesn’t exactly make them wrong. I also don’t know that I agree there is such a thing as a fundamental truth- but I’m curious what you are the likely answers to (and what are) humanity’s biggest questions?
No, you’re conservative. I don’t like labeling my beliefs either, but being pro cop and antiprogressive is conservative. In reality, self proclaimed American conservatives want to change society to be more hierarchical and unfair, not keep things as is. If you’re not applying pressure for reformation, selfish interests will cause backsliding. The battle will never end until humanity dies out. Good things require effort to maintain.
Another mistake you make is thinking progressives have more power than we do. The rich aren’t progressive. Companies pandering to diverse customers aren’t progressive, they’re just making money by expanding their customer base. The right screams about companies being woke, but the companies are often act more right wing than they would be if they were only chasing profits.
Social media companies don’t censor conservatives unfairly, instead they protect conservatives from the policies they implement to prevent brands from pulling advertising. The standards are higher for left wing causes in the mainstream media, as the rich people who own them are right wing. Accurate descriptions of reality in science and journalism tend to support progressives more than conservatives, with publications often introducing inaccuracies to prop up conservative positions.
My biggest problem when I thought like you was having an inaccurate view of left wingers as having power in society. Many agents that I thought were left wing actually weren’t, instead only supporting left wing causes for personal gain. Empirical observations are almost always in opposition to right wing plans for improving society. Exclusively right wing plans never make things better for the weak; never.
If you want fundamental truths and answers to our biggest questions, read my comment history. This comment is already long enough.
being pro cop and antiprogressive is conservative.
I am neither of those things. And it’s very condescending to assume you know what I am. Well it depends what “anti progressive” means, I support some progressive stances but oppose others.
If you’re not applying pressure for reformation
Again, you don’t know me.
The rich aren’t progressive. Companies pandering to diverse customers aren’t progressive
They may or may not be. I think it’s wrong to assume companies aren’t just made of people, and people may make some logical oversights of their beliefs to keep their standard of living and job.
Social media companies don’t censor conservatives unfairly, instead they protect conservatives from the policies they implement to prevent brands from pulling advertising.
Why would brands pull their advertising? No person sees an Amazon ad on something dumb and thinks that means Amazon endorses that belief. There are however certain organizations such as the ADL that pressure companies into pulling their ads.
Accurate descriptions of reality in science and journalism tend to support progressives more than conservatives, with publications often introducing inaccuracies to prop up conservative positions.
This is true. Progressivism has a basic moral value of utilitarianism. Conservatism basic moral values are religion and tradition. Of course one of those has more evidence for it.
Many agents that I thought were left wing actually weren’t, instead only supporting left wing causes for personal gain.
Well isn’t that a lot of those out of power too? After all, one of the biggest criticism of poor Trump voters was that they were voting against their interest. They weren’t voting for personal gain. Which would imply that at least some less conservative voters were convinced by that argument. Maybe no one votes in their interest, but at least conventional wisdom was the two wolves and a sheep saying.
Empirical observations are almost always in opposition to right wing plans for improving society.
You know, how you define improving society depends on your values. We probably agree on some parts of the definition and disagree on others.
Exclusively right wing plans never make things better for the weak; never.
That’s not to mention the definitions of right and left wing tend to depend on the person.
Governments, companies, organizations and identities seem to function as meta organisms on large scales, interested more in their own survival above all else. It’s an emergent phenomenon of many individuals, but so are all multicellular organisms. Even individual genes can work against the interests of the cells they exist in, moving themselves around in the code to avoid deletion. Companies are machines made of living organisms and shaped by evolutionary pressures. Their practices spread into new companies if they help the company continue its existence. That’s what life is, machines that secure the future existence of their mechanical processes.
People do see ads of products and associate that product with its corresponding content. That’s how ads are understood to work. It doesn’t matter what the person consciously thinks, advertising works mostly through unconscious associations. The ADL, an organization funded by genocidal nationalistic Israelis to garner goodwill from anti-hate activists, isn’t applying alien logic to advertisers. They’re applying the very logic advertisers use to design their ads in the first place.
Utilitarianism is an explicitly hedonistic ethical framework, but all other moral frameworks tie back into hedonism in some way. Kant’s categorical imperative, the Socratic inspired virtue theories used by Christian theologians for millenia, social contract theory, even the widespread golden rule. They all tie back into serving one’s own self interest if you follow their logic. It’s so implicit that it’s unavoidable. They all originate in what we think will bring us utility/pleasure/happiness/eudaimonia.
The craziest part is, we don’t even serve our own pleasure. Having kids usually makes people less happy, but we want to do it regardless. Our pleasure evolved to serve our genes, just like everything about us.
You asked about my answers to longstanding questions. I found the form of the good that Plato imagined: the evolutionary imperative. I also discovered that forms come from our neurology and aren’t inherent, so it’s more accurate to say that I found the likely answer to a high degree of certainty.
That’s ok though, I also realized that we cannot ever have certainty about anything based in reality, with all deductive reasoning being based on induction. I don’t need proof, only evidence. It only needs to be the best answer, and I can always end up being wrong. Proof doesn’t matter if one’s assumptions are wrong. Solipsism is unavoidable. Not even “I think, therefore I am” is accurate, as it assumes thinking requires an agent who thinks.
The Trump voters only voted for what they thought were their interests, it’s just that their understanding was inaccurate. It’s ok though, because even the rich and powerful people that support Trump were voting against their long-term interests.
The rich destabilize societies to gain more power by getting free market ideologues elected, pushing the workers to suffer, which leads them to radical ideolgies. The rich then prefer to avoid socialism, so they support radical right wing ideologies in the form of fascists like Trump. Unfortunately, fascists create more worker suffering, harm the economy, and create international conflict with other nations. The global rise in fascism and collapse of neoliberal policies has pushed the entire planet towards World War.
This sounds crazy, but look at what Trump did in the middle east to inflame the current conflict. He withdrew from the Iran nuclear deal and killed their general in an unprovoked attack. This has made Iran pursue nukes and take a more hostile stance against US interests, as their economy suffered from sanctions and they got pushed further to the right. His reckless support of Israel led Israel to be more bold in their actions against Palestinians and confident of US support. Israel has nukes, and if the war with Iran continues to escalate, they might be used by a desperate Israel.
His support of Putin and weakening of alliances with Europe probably encouraged Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. If Ukraine gets pushed too far west, Poland will likely put boots on the ground to prevent them from being easily invaded by Russia. Trump killing the Israel/Ukraine/border security funding bill makes it harder for Ukraine to remain strong against Russia, increasing the likelihood of EU direct intervention, and increasing the risk of nuclear war in Europe.
Trump’s useless trade war with China empowered hardliners in their government to be more hostile and nationalistic, increasing the probability of them invading Taiwan. If Taiwan gets invaded, the US might interfere militarily and risk escalating to a broader conflict, although nukes are less likely than the other conflicts.
Regardless of what values the rich may have, all this danger is not good from any perspective. Nobody wins in wars they need to fight in. The military industrial complex is fucked if the US gets nuked. The entire global economy has already been harmed by these conflicts, and even if no nuclear bombs are ever used, conventional bombs are already bad enough. Modern nations can’t be conquered by direct warfare, only destroyed.
Fascists are bad for everyone in the long run, and that’s what the GOP is. They aren’t regular conservatives like in the past, they’re against liberal democracy entirely. Bush wanted to use some elements of liberal democracy to enact conservative goals, but Trump broke from it completely. The entire Republican party has been purged of anyone who might stand against fascism, from Romney who will be gone by the end of the year, to Liz Cheney who got the boot in 2022. Even fascists like McCarthy can’t survive if they don’t follow every order Trump gives.
You’re right about me not knowing what you think you advocate for, but saying pro cop people have a point isn’t advocating for reform. I think cops need to exist to some extent, but I’m willing to defund them, prosecute them, and replace the entire system to reign them in. Pro cop people aren’t giving enough criticism to make any positive change, sorry.
I also should have said conservative instead of right wing. Conservative plans will never help the weak. Values and intentions don’t matter when the solution doesn’t work. Progressive plans may not work every time, but they are the only ones capable of working.
Went to a metal concert last year for a huge, well known band. The number of punisher/warrior, thin blue line, militia-styled ragged flag, Gadsden shirts and hats was off the charts.
In my younger days metal was anti-authoritarianism, anti-cop, anti-conformity… now these clowns are the ones who want to be holding the riot batons, the body armor, and support the very fascists we hated.
I got plenty of grey hair, the crowd around me didn’t so I’m thinking there’s a generational shift to metal going fascist.
Yeah, the meme rings pretty true.
Your comment reminds me of Metallica many years ago. Their first albums were really good I thought. Then they cut their hair, their music started to sound more mainstream and I heard from friends that the band kind apologized for the anti war lyrics on their earlier albums. I guess money talks in strange ways.
That’s the band.
Funny enough they still play those same anti-war songs off the early albums. Play what pays so they can ride around in their private jets.
Edit:
I did some digging. AJFA - One to most anyone objectively is about the horrors of war. The music video opens with the sounds and images of war. Lyrics say the war is done with the speaker in the story. It’s zero distance to understand that the person in the video suffered their wounds as a result of that war. The lyrics literally say a Landmine caused the wounds.
However, Hetfield walked back that imagery and the lyrics to mean:
So it’s not an apology, he’s retconning the song to this instead of what pretty much everyone legitimately understood it to be about.
Also, regarding Don’t Tread On Me, what people associated with the Gadsden Flag:
It sounds a lot to me like Hetfield is softballing pandering to right wing fans he doesn’t want to offend and/or personal beliefs that lean Right. He completely disregards the obvious anti-war sentiment in AJFA with “Oh, you all thought we were anti-war? We’re not pro-war, we’re pro-America.” If that isn’t some Chauvanistic Nationalism I don’t know what is.
Anyway, I don’t know one way or the other, but considering the crowd’s fashion choices at the event and his unwillingness to just say “war is bullshit”, which you can do apolitically, I figure Metallica, or at least Hetfield, support right wing ideologies.
E2: another interview where Hetfield says why he left the Bay Area:
So by inference and the preponderance of evidence, he’s probably right wing.
Thanks for the edit, and thanks @[email protected] for commenting.
You know you’re in a room full of true metal heads when everyone has distinctly point to when metallica started to suck, especially if they all point to different albums.
Metallica died after Cliff died, that dude was the heart of the band. If you read up on Burton you’ll find musical crossover with Martin of the great Faith No More.
In addition to ‘One’, don’t forget the great ‘Disposable Heroes’. Totally sold out with the Black Album and thereafter.
I remember them getting haircuts and piercings and everyone being like “wtf?”
That and the Lars/Napster stuff really soured them for me.
I know I’m not a “true metalhead” because I never cared about the culture, I only cared about the music. As far as I can tell, metallica still makes banger music. I am not an authority on this subject.
I’m not much of a metal head anymore but it was the first genre I was really into when I started developing my own taste in music.
They’re not really for me but they’re definitely still one of the biggest bands in the world with millions of fans and I’m not gonna tell all those people they don’t have any taste in music you know? To each their own.
There’s still at least three good tracks on that album. It does mark a turning point.
Lot of metal recently using racist ideology, etc. Sucks that anything with a Celtic or Viking design has a racist vibe behind it now
Right? Of all people our veterinarian wears a Mjölnir necklace…I had to do a triple take to make sure he wasn’t a supremacist asshole, but no, he’s a legit Norwegian who likes Nordic style in general. He wears a Dragestil belt with silver inlay, some tattoos too. Cool guy. Sad that my first thought was wondering if he was a nazi supremacist because the symbols have been usurped and corrupted.
As an Icelander who still practices the old customs this drives me nuts. These scum lack the basic imagination to come up with their own logos so they steal our symbols? Fuck that.
I just wish one of the Kardashians or some influencer would go big on Nordic symbology and bring it to the mainstream. Maybe it would lose its appeal to these fucks.
That’s the thing, isn’t it? All these extremists steal other people’s stuff and corrupt it to their own purposes. Nazis did it. Religions did it. Supremacists are doing it with Nordic cultural symbols.
Fucking posers, man…
And the silliest part is that Thor would fuck them up for this disrespect.
Yeah there are people who think (sterotypical) Vikings are their true “white” heritage and end up harassing anyone they don’t like out of fanbases for viking-related bands. Heilung, for example, had to publicly state that those kind of people are not welcome after some of them were harrassing a woman for having the “wrong” skin color to be able to participate at one of their shows. These guys haven’t yet figured out that their bigotry is the exact opposite beliefs of the vast majority of the pagan/viking/etc communities.
Is it bad that I find this reassuring? I love Heilung’s music, but I’ve been too nervous to check out if they’re Nazis. Now I don’t have to worry.
Speaking of which, does anyone know anything about Brothers of Metal’s political position (or lack of)? They barely seem to have an online presence at all, like a ghost of sick riffs and cheesy viking costumes.
I find that whenever I go to metal shows, most people are very kind, polite and free of bigotry. Maybe what you’re describing is a US thing, or maybe it’s just that Metallica is a super mainstream band which attracts more dickheads than your average metal show.
I know metalheads have a history of gatekeeping, and keeping these fascists away from the scene should be priority #1.
I can only offer what I experienced at the show I attended. Metallica was touring with Five Finger Death Punch, a very much right-wing “military rock” band that just sucks IMO. They straight up dog whistled the right wingers in the crowd using a lot of “there’s something wrong in this country” type of commentary. Metallica bringing them on tour doesn’t really change my growing opinion that Metallica supports right wing ideology. My understanding of the greater Metal crowd is that they are indeed good people, I went to an Industrial Metal concert a few weeks back and it was free of the iconography I saw at the Metallica show, and everyone was great. We had a good time. It was also the loudest show I think I’ve ever been to. Thank goodness for earplugs, lol.
Sorry, but I just read “Five Finger Death Punch” and automatically thought “Ahhh there you go…” lol
Let’s not forget that time their singer tried to murder his wife.
I mean, Kirk Hammet literally wore swastika shirts back in the day. I used to be a huge Metallica fan boy when I was younger but eesh.
No shit…I never knew that.
Yeah I think it was either before Metallica, or early days. I’ve tried to find a picture, but they’ve done a good job of scrubbing it from the Internet. I know my source is “trust me bro” at this point lol, but I swear I’ve seen it multiple times years ago
You’re right, it’s not to be found. Eh, after a little poking around they did a nazi salute, too. You can still see that image. Be willing to bet the swastika and salute were both “fuck you” for lols and not any personal affiliation.
E:typo
Which creates a space where people with personal affiliations get away with it and gather. And then when called out on their shit, tell the “for the lulz” crowd that people are coming for their freedom.
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I’ve never understood the popularity of FFDP. “War is the Answer” is their best album by a heavy margin and it’s just… Fine? Like it’s listenable, I can listen to it without being bored. At the end of the day it makes me wish I was listening to Avenged Sevenfold, Shinedown, or Killswitch Engage.
But the rest of their music is unbelievably boring. Their covers of other people’s music is their best work, probably because they can’t write interesting music.
It’s performative. That’s why.
Heh. Yeah I thought Metallica were anti “the man” when I was a teen but the Napster case showed me that they were the man
They’re just rich old white dudes and everything that goes with it.
That’s crazy, around here I saw a guy get his ass thrown out of a metal bar for having a burzum patch last month. They also forced a guy to either leave, invert his vest or remove a mayhem patch. The scene here is pretty intensely antifascist.
Considering the size of the crowd I don’t think anyone was throwing anyone out at the event I attended. I mentioned elsewhere that Five Finger Death Punch was part of the act, and they are absolutely right wing. Anyway, from the conversation here and the reading I did about Metallica/Hetfield, I’m forming the opinion that Metallica is different than the metal bands that everyone is talking about, partially because of their fame and visibility. They’re the rich old white men of Metal, and all the get off my lawn that goes with it.
Oh, I don’t like metal and still considered them to be a mostly apolitical group of weird nerds. But it probably fits to the general trend of neonazis trying to infiltrate and overtake other subcultures. Oi! just doesn’t draw large crowds I guess, probably Punk rock in general is not such a big thing anymore?
Some Punk went mainstream, but even then I think Punk still holds on to that anti-authority ideology better. Greenday’s recent commentary on the Right Wing stirred things up a bit.
I was addressing that Neonazis usurped the Skinhead subculture for a long time. The skinhead subculture is part of the punkrock scene. Most of punkrock was always leftist though, at least here in Europe. I think you’ll have to try hard to find a rightwing skinhead nowadays though. A switch towards Metal sounds like an almost natural thing for the neonazi scene. Metalfans should try their best to stop that or it might destroy the whole subculture.
Depends on what wave of skinheads you’re talking about. Skinheads emerged in the UK in working class urban communities in the late sixties. They were influenced by the early sixties mod scene, the Jamaican rude boy scene, a strong identity towards their working class roots that alienated them against the government and the then middle class hippie lifestyle. As they were in working class areas in urban Britain, they were also rubbing shoulders with working class black people who brought with them their West Indian music and dress style. Ska Music and reggae were big influences on the tastes of first wave skinheads. In this way, it’s ironic that the second wave of skinheads in the late seventies and beyond got involved with fascist politics, considering its working class multicultural roots.
I’m not sure you can say that skinheads were an offshoot of punk, at least not the first wave of skinheads, as skinheads predate punk by nearly a decade. As I mentioned above, the first skinheads were interested in ska, reggae and other music from West Indian roots. They were more an offshoot of the early sixties mods, with added interest in black working class styles and music.
The second wave came around when punk was in the ascendency in the late seventies, and that is where Oi music is based on. But Oi and the second wave’s interest in fascism is certainly not what skinheads were originally about. The birth of Oi was convenient in a way for the likes of the fascist National Front in the UK, who were heavily recruiting amongst the skinheads in the late seventies, as it pulled skinheads away from that “problematic” (for the fascists) black music. I mean, there’d be a conflict of interest if you’re heavily influenced by black music and styles and yet want to “send the foreigners back where they came from”. In many ways Oi was a betrayal of the skinhead scene.
It’s a bit muddy, it’s been a few years since the whole skinhead/punk thing was more closely related. I do remember that there wasn’t much visual difference between Punks and Skinheads unless you got the Punks were wearing their full getup with mohawks and basically had hair, whereas the skinheads really didn’t, obviously because “skinhead”. I always associated skinheads with being racists or nazi-types, but they also (at least in my experience here) were also anti-authority and often leaned hard into anarchy, too. So definitely some overlap with Punk.
I have no idea about the skinhead culture these days in the US, or what it aligns itself with. Can’t imagine anyone affording a pair of Doc Martens, and plus they’re low quality chinese made now.
I don’t know if there’s anything to be done at this point. There were 80,000-ish in attendance for the sold-out Metallica show. The people wearing right-wing stuff were everywhere, plus flying right wing thin blue line and Gadsden flags while tailgating in the venue parking lot.
AFAIK in France skinhead and Neonazi are basically synonymes, but I’m not big on this subculture thing, and this probably depends by country/language. But please don’t go there calling yourself a skinhead lol
Yeah, as I said “Neonazis usurped the Skinhead subculture” in the 80s. There have always been apolitical and left wing skinheads, though. Nowadays the Skinhead subculture seems to be mostly dead (the whole punk scene has declined massively) and the few remaining appear to be almost completly apolitical and left wing.
It makes sense that those types would join the punk /metal scene. It’s a scene made up of those on the fringes of society who are rebelling against authority (regardless of what that authority may be) and who are willing to accept anyone like them.
I’ve met plenty of LGBT, geeks, on the spectrum and otherwise different folk who are part of the punk and metal scenes.
Me too.
I was volunteering with an anarchist mutual aid group and one of the volunteers was wearing a punk war vest (idk if punks have their own term for it, I’m a metal head) with a variety of punk patches and queer buttons.
Maybe it’s just a symptom of only seeing shows in a city with a good radical scene, but most people I’ve met are completely normal and don’t have any concerning things like a punisher tattoo or a thin blue line shirt, etc.
They are since 40+ years, The skinhead subculture is part of the punk scene. And Neonazis usurped that subculture for a long time (not so much nowadays though).
To a lot of young people, myself included. The authority, or at least the authority we interact with- is progressive. So something like a thin blue line flag is rejecting that authority. Also the Gadsden flag has always been anti-authority.
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Yeah?
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I didn’t say to everyone, I said to a lot of people that is the current dominant ideology from people in positions of authority that they interact with.
Yeah. To a lot of young, vulnerable people who are less minoritized, progressives feel like the authority. You’re told you’re privileged, but you don’t feel it. This is partially because we take our personal experiences for granted, but also because even the relatively privileged struggle. Some people suffer more from the system than others, but a ton of things suck for everyone.
Unfortunately, the promises of the right are a monkey’s paw at best, or a scam at worst. Even if the right succeeds, they usually make things worse for everyone in the process, even themselves.
Especially because average privilege accross a demographic says nothing of a given individuals privilege.
But I think that’s not the only reason people feel this way, but also because for the people we interact with they are the authority. Most of my teachers were progressive, anti-capitalist, and ERFs(I don’t know about trans exclusionary since they never talked about it)- but said ridiculous things like “men can’t get raped”. This might’ve been just my school, but especially amongst girls, anyone suspected of being “conservative” was bullied. I wasn’t conservative but was pretty argumentative, and I have someone email my school email thanking me for saying what they wanted to say but were too scared to.
Remember for a lot of people my age, early 20s and late teens, when we were growing up people who made funny memes(like from our perspectives Alex Jones or whoever) were being banned while the inverse wasn’t happening.
I went through a phase where I felt the exact same way. My upbringing was left wing and becoming more conservative felt like rebellion. I was never really that right wing, but I was convinced that conservatives must have some valid points. After all, how could half the country be wrong on almost everything?
Unfortunately for conservatives, I never stopped questioning, never stopped pushing ideas to their limits. In doing so, I independently came to many of the same left wing viewpoints I grew up with, only stronger and more resilient. I realized that my parents were actually right, while I was wrong.
More importantly, I realized that conservative ideas did make sense, but not at face value. Conservatives are inconsistent and contradictory because they aren’t expressing their motivations explicitly. They often aren’t aware of their actual reasoning, but there is logic behind their views. The logic is usually very cynical and cruel, dehumanizing people and valuing identity over principles.
I used to think somewhat like you, until I applied a critical lens to conservative ideas in the same way I had investigated familiar progressive ideas. Now I’m a trans woman who’s farther left than every elected representative in congress. I still believe in almost all of the leftist ideas I was raised with, only I’ve pushed them farther than my parents ever did.
Right now you’re critical of progressives, and often you spot valid flaws, but are you willing to continue? Are you willing to peer deeper into reality; to open your eyes to fundamental truths? That was my strategy, and it took me from naive progressive, to rebellious centrist, to the eventual woke queen I am today.
I continue to awaken to new truths, mostly because I like doing it. I like the feeling of discovery and understanding. Thanks to my efforts, I’ve found likely answers to humanity’s biggest questions, raised my base happiness levels from constantly suicidal to never hopeless, and became way smarter than I thought I’d ever be. I think most people can learn what I’ve learned if they apply themselves, but it’s still a tough journey. Are you willing to take it?
I appreciate you sharing, but I think you’re misunderstanding me and what I was saying. I am not conservative, nor am I progressive. My point was just that progressivism was the dominant ideology of authority in most of my upbringing. Being the authority ideology doesn’t inherently make it wrong, or its “designated opposition” right. I have a few fundamental values that are based(like I think deep down probably everyones) on my intuition and emotion. I then try to interpret how certain things align with those values. Its true that probably at least some of the basis for those values were initially rebelliousness- but that doesn’t exactly make them wrong. I also don’t know that I agree there is such a thing as a fundamental truth- but I’m curious what you are the likely answers to (and what are) humanity’s biggest questions?
No, you’re conservative. I don’t like labeling my beliefs either, but being pro cop and antiprogressive is conservative. In reality, self proclaimed American conservatives want to change society to be more hierarchical and unfair, not keep things as is. If you’re not applying pressure for reformation, selfish interests will cause backsliding. The battle will never end until humanity dies out. Good things require effort to maintain.
Another mistake you make is thinking progressives have more power than we do. The rich aren’t progressive. Companies pandering to diverse customers aren’t progressive, they’re just making money by expanding their customer base. The right screams about companies being woke, but the companies are often act more right wing than they would be if they were only chasing profits.
Social media companies don’t censor conservatives unfairly, instead they protect conservatives from the policies they implement to prevent brands from pulling advertising. The standards are higher for left wing causes in the mainstream media, as the rich people who own them are right wing. Accurate descriptions of reality in science and journalism tend to support progressives more than conservatives, with publications often introducing inaccuracies to prop up conservative positions.
My biggest problem when I thought like you was having an inaccurate view of left wingers as having power in society. Many agents that I thought were left wing actually weren’t, instead only supporting left wing causes for personal gain. Empirical observations are almost always in opposition to right wing plans for improving society. Exclusively right wing plans never make things better for the weak; never.
If you want fundamental truths and answers to our biggest questions, read my comment history. This comment is already long enough.
I am neither of those things. And it’s very condescending to assume you know what I am. Well it depends what “anti progressive” means, I support some progressive stances but oppose others.
Again, you don’t know me.
They may or may not be. I think it’s wrong to assume companies aren’t just made of people, and people may make some logical oversights of their beliefs to keep their standard of living and job.
Why would brands pull their advertising? No person sees an Amazon ad on something dumb and thinks that means Amazon endorses that belief. There are however certain organizations such as the ADL that pressure companies into pulling their ads.
This is true. Progressivism has a basic moral value of utilitarianism. Conservatism basic moral values are religion and tradition. Of course one of those has more evidence for it.
Well isn’t that a lot of those out of power too? After all, one of the biggest criticism of poor Trump voters was that they were voting against their interest. They weren’t voting for personal gain. Which would imply that at least some less conservative voters were convinced by that argument. Maybe no one votes in their interest, but at least conventional wisdom was the two wolves and a sheep saying.
You know, how you define improving society depends on your values. We probably agree on some parts of the definition and disagree on others.
That’s not to mention the definitions of right and left wing tend to depend on the person.
Governments, companies, organizations and identities seem to function as meta organisms on large scales, interested more in their own survival above all else. It’s an emergent phenomenon of many individuals, but so are all multicellular organisms. Even individual genes can work against the interests of the cells they exist in, moving themselves around in the code to avoid deletion. Companies are machines made of living organisms and shaped by evolutionary pressures. Their practices spread into new companies if they help the company continue its existence. That’s what life is, machines that secure the future existence of their mechanical processes.
People do see ads of products and associate that product with its corresponding content. That’s how ads are understood to work. It doesn’t matter what the person consciously thinks, advertising works mostly through unconscious associations. The ADL, an organization funded by genocidal nationalistic Israelis to garner goodwill from anti-hate activists, isn’t applying alien logic to advertisers. They’re applying the very logic advertisers use to design their ads in the first place.
Utilitarianism is an explicitly hedonistic ethical framework, but all other moral frameworks tie back into hedonism in some way. Kant’s categorical imperative, the Socratic inspired virtue theories used by Christian theologians for millenia, social contract theory, even the widespread golden rule. They all tie back into serving one’s own self interest if you follow their logic. It’s so implicit that it’s unavoidable. They all originate in what we think will bring us utility/pleasure/happiness/eudaimonia.
The craziest part is, we don’t even serve our own pleasure. Having kids usually makes people less happy, but we want to do it regardless. Our pleasure evolved to serve our genes, just like everything about us.
You asked about my answers to longstanding questions. I found the form of the good that Plato imagined: the evolutionary imperative. I also discovered that forms come from our neurology and aren’t inherent, so it’s more accurate to say that I found the likely answer to a high degree of certainty.
That’s ok though, I also realized that we cannot ever have certainty about anything based in reality, with all deductive reasoning being based on induction. I don’t need proof, only evidence. It only needs to be the best answer, and I can always end up being wrong. Proof doesn’t matter if one’s assumptions are wrong. Solipsism is unavoidable. Not even “I think, therefore I am” is accurate, as it assumes thinking requires an agent who thinks.
The Trump voters only voted for what they thought were their interests, it’s just that their understanding was inaccurate. It’s ok though, because even the rich and powerful people that support Trump were voting against their long-term interests.
The rich destabilize societies to gain more power by getting free market ideologues elected, pushing the workers to suffer, which leads them to radical ideolgies. The rich then prefer to avoid socialism, so they support radical right wing ideologies in the form of fascists like Trump. Unfortunately, fascists create more worker suffering, harm the economy, and create international conflict with other nations. The global rise in fascism and collapse of neoliberal policies has pushed the entire planet towards World War.
This sounds crazy, but look at what Trump did in the middle east to inflame the current conflict. He withdrew from the Iran nuclear deal and killed their general in an unprovoked attack. This has made Iran pursue nukes and take a more hostile stance against US interests, as their economy suffered from sanctions and they got pushed further to the right. His reckless support of Israel led Israel to be more bold in their actions against Palestinians and confident of US support. Israel has nukes, and if the war with Iran continues to escalate, they might be used by a desperate Israel.
His support of Putin and weakening of alliances with Europe probably encouraged Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. If Ukraine gets pushed too far west, Poland will likely put boots on the ground to prevent them from being easily invaded by Russia. Trump killing the Israel/Ukraine/border security funding bill makes it harder for Ukraine to remain strong against Russia, increasing the likelihood of EU direct intervention, and increasing the risk of nuclear war in Europe.
Trump’s useless trade war with China empowered hardliners in their government to be more hostile and nationalistic, increasing the probability of them invading Taiwan. If Taiwan gets invaded, the US might interfere militarily and risk escalating to a broader conflict, although nukes are less likely than the other conflicts.
Regardless of what values the rich may have, all this danger is not good from any perspective. Nobody wins in wars they need to fight in. The military industrial complex is fucked if the US gets nuked. The entire global economy has already been harmed by these conflicts, and even if no nuclear bombs are ever used, conventional bombs are already bad enough. Modern nations can’t be conquered by direct warfare, only destroyed.
Fascists are bad for everyone in the long run, and that’s what the GOP is. They aren’t regular conservatives like in the past, they’re against liberal democracy entirely. Bush wanted to use some elements of liberal democracy to enact conservative goals, but Trump broke from it completely. The entire Republican party has been purged of anyone who might stand against fascism, from Romney who will be gone by the end of the year, to Liz Cheney who got the boot in 2022. Even fascists like McCarthy can’t survive if they don’t follow every order Trump gives.
You’re right about me not knowing what you think you advocate for, but saying pro cop people have a point isn’t advocating for reform. I think cops need to exist to some extent, but I’m willing to defund them, prosecute them, and replace the entire system to reign them in. Pro cop people aren’t giving enough criticism to make any positive change, sorry.
I also should have said conservative instead of right wing. Conservative plans will never help the weak. Values and intentions don’t matter when the solution doesn’t work. Progressive plans may not work every time, but they are the only ones capable of working.