• bloodfart@lemmy.ml
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    6 months ago

    I am once again posting that I will never vote for Joe Biden again and you donā€™t have to either.

    This November Iā€™m planning to mark my ballot for the party for socialism and liberation and you can too. There are lots of parties you might be able to align with if psl isnā€™t your thing.

    There are no votes against candidates, only for them. Choosing to vote for Biden isnā€™t a vote against trump, itā€™s a vote for Biden and the genocide he just recently denied the existence of.

    • Olgratin_Magmatoe@lemmy.world
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      6 months ago

      There are no votes against candidates, only for them.

      Sure there is. The boomers/evangelical show up in force every single election. Theyā€™re gonna do so again this november, and if Trump isnā€™t stopped we may see an end to what little democracy we have. To prevent that (or in other words go against it or vote against it), we need to get more electoral votes for a different candidate. Third parties are not viable for that.

      So itā€™s either going to end up being Biden or Trump. And I donā€™t want to see trans people killed, so Iā€™m begrudgingly voting Biden. Have fun with the blood of minorities on your hands because you placed your own need for a clear conscience over the lives of minorities.

      • bloodfart@lemmy.ml
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        6 months ago

        There is no way to vote against a candidate. You canā€™t mark the bubble ā€œanybody but trumpā€, or ā€œI wish the democrats had run anyone elseā€.

        You can only vote for candidates.

        Thatā€™s not some metaphor, itā€™s how the system works.

        A vote for Biden is a vote in support of Biden, not a vote against trump. Thatā€™s how itā€™ll be counted.

        Support for Biden incorporates support for the genocide he supplies and denies the existence of.

        I tried to figure out a polite way to say this and hereā€™s the best I came up with:

        You probably donā€™t want to invoke the imagery of blood on oneā€™s hands when youā€™re advocating for Biden.

        • Olgratin_Magmatoe@lemmy.world
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          6 months ago

          There is no way to vote against a candidate. You canā€™t mark the bubble ā€œanybody but trumpā€, or ā€œI wish the democrats had run anyone elseā€.

          Sure you can. I just explained how.

          A vote for Biden is a vote in support of Biden, not a vote against trump. Thatā€™s how itā€™ll be counted.

          This is just semantics.

          Support for Biden incorporates support for the genocide he supplies and denies the existence of.

          And lack of support for Biden incorporates support for genocide that Trump will continue and excelerate, in addition to the death and other harm that will come to minorities in the U.S., as well as the potential end of what little democracy we have.

          Itā€™s a catch 22, and youā€™re choosing the worst option.

          You probably donā€™t want to invoke the imagery of blood on oneā€™s hands when youā€™re advocating for Biden.

          Blood is on the hands of every taxpayer. Iā€™m strategically voting to reduce that amount of blood. Youā€™re doing nothing to reduce it, and potentially increasing it.

          • bloodfart@lemmy.ml
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            6 months ago

            Thereā€™s some really flawed reasoning going into your ideas here. Iā€™m gonna go way out on some limbs and try to enumerate the different stuff that seems to underpin your ideas, but if I get something wrong feel free to lay it out.

            If youā€™re considering any vote that isnā€™t for trump to be against trump than my psl ballot is against trump too and voting ā€œagainstā€ trump is a meaningless distinction.

            If only a vote for a candidate that has a chance at beating trump counts as a vote against him then unless the polls change somehow your Biden vote isnā€™t a vote ā€œagainstā€ trump.

            If youā€™re suggesting that only a vote for the candidate who has the best chance to beat trump counts as a vote against trump, youā€™re discounting the fact that Biden doesnā€™t have to be that candidate. He could still step down or not be selected at the convention.

            It is not semantics to be clear about how the electoral system works. Votes are for candidates, not against them. Itā€™s important to recognize that because parties will look at vote totals to see what is acceptable political action, messaging, etc.

            Thatā€™s not semantics, itā€™s how the system works. Itā€™s not a semantic distinction because opposition to one candidate does not mean support for another, but voting for a candidate indicates support for them and their actions and platform.

            The reason thatā€™s important is because a person has to both pick one of the understandings of voting for Biden in opposition to trump that I laid out above (or some different one that I missed!) and accept that their vote for Biden is literally a vote in support of his aid and denial of a genocide that we see disgusting images of everyday.

            The problem with waiving your hands about what trump is gonna do is that almost every American made it through trumps term. They saw how he operated and what he did. You have a hard time convincing a person that the president who didnā€™t do a genocide is gonna be worse than the one who is at this very moment supplying one and denying its existence at the same time.

            I donā€™t say that to defend trump, but to illustrate how that line of thinking opens you up to some pretty straightforward critiques from a person who actually is considering voting for trump.

            Thatā€™s who you wanna convince, right? The undecided voter? How do you expect to convince someone who can remember no genocide when they compare it with the presence of a genocide?

            Itā€™s not an enviable position.

            I think you have a deeply flawed and warped worldview if you would say the blood of Palestinians is on the hands of every taxpayer. Americans should be angry that a genocide is being committed in our names, but we bear no responsibility for it because despite a majority in favor of ending arms shipments and immediate ceasefire, Biden continues on.

            And you would have me vote for the man who will aid and deny a genocide despite it being universally unpopular? Because the other guy is worse? The other guy who was already president just four short years ago and didnā€™t do what Biden is doing?

            No.

            We are given a chance to record our political will this November and mine wonā€™t be in favor of Bidens genocide.

            • Anomaline@lemmy.world
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              6 months ago

              Hey bloodfart, the only reason I can still have a job and access healthcare in a lot of places is because of Biden working to reverse Trumpā€™s anti-trans stuff. I get that you feel all high and mighty telling people that folks like me donā€™t matter enough but this shit is kinda important to some of us.

              • bloodfart@lemmy.ml
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                6 months ago

                Theres a story I like called the ones who walk away from omelas. Itā€™s pretty good.

            • Olgratin_Magmatoe@lemmy.world
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              6 months ago

              If youā€™re considering any vote that isnā€™t for trump to be against trump than my psl ballot is against trump too and voting ā€œagainstā€ trump is a meaningless distinction.

              The only currently available candidate that stands a chance is Biden. I know you cover that in your next sentence so:

              If only a vote for a candidate that has a chance at beating trump counts as a vote against him then unless the polls change somehow your Biden vote isnā€™t a vote ā€œagainstā€ trump.

              Biden has still has a chance of beating Trump. The polls are horseshit.

              If youā€™re suggesting that only a vote for the candidate who has the best chance to beat trump counts as a vote against trump, youā€™re discounting the fact that Biden doesnā€™t have to be that candidate. He could still step down or not be selected at the convention.

              If that were to happen I would be elated.

              It is not semantics to be clear about how the electoral system works. Votes are for candidates, not against them. Itā€™s important to recognize that because parties will look at vote totals to see what is acceptable political action, messaging, etc.

              You can say what you like, but this is still just semantics. I understand what youā€™re saying is technically correct, but youā€™re missing the point of what is being said when somebody says they are voting against something.

              Youā€™re ignoring the intended meaning and focusing on the technical mechanics.

              and accept that their vote for Biden is literally a vote in support of his aid and denial of a genocide that we see disgusting images of everyday.

              A vote for a candidate is not a blanket support for all policies and actions they make.

              from a person who actually is considering voting for trump.

              Then youā€™re an even bigger fool than you initially let on.

              Thatā€™s who you wanna convince, right? The undecided voter? How do you expect to convince someone who can remember no genocide when they compare it with the presence of a genocide?

              This isnā€™t my job. And youā€™re not who Iā€™m here to convince.

              I think you have a deeply flawed and warped worldview if you would say the blood of Palestinians is on the hands of every taxpayer.

              Every single tax payer is ultimately sending their money to the federal government, who then uses that money to bomb and kill Palestinians. Most states gave police training ops with the IDF.

              Thatā€™s not a warped view, those are the facts, and it means blood is on all of our hands.

              despite a majority in favor of ending arms shipments and immediate ceasefire, Biden continues on.

              And yet we pay our taxes, which kills Palestinians. You bear responsibility just as I. You canā€™t avoid that anymore than you can avoid a Trump/Biden winning.

              • bloodfart@lemmy.ml
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                6 months ago

                If youā€™d be elated that Biden stepped down or that the convention put someone else up, join me in telling everyone that they donā€™t have to vote for Biden. Thatā€™s how you get the thing you want. You commit to not voting for Biden.

                A vote can only ever be interpreted as blanket support for the candidateā€™s policies and actions. You donā€™t get to say ā€œi like Biden but not his border detentionsā€, you get to say ā€œBidenā€. Consent to the candidates program is part of casting a vote for them and if you canā€™t stomach going on a permanent record as saying ā€œI support Bidens genocideā€ then donā€™t vote for him.

                I am not considering voting for trump. I decided sixteen years ago that I wouldnā€™t vote for Biden again and am planning on marking my ballot psl this year. As I wrote, I invoked a person considering voting for trump over Biden to illustrate how difficult it is to portray trump as a clear danger more important than an ongoing genocide.

                I asked if that was who you were trying to convince because itā€™s either undecideds, nonvoters or me and you will never convince me to vote for Biden. You said youā€™re not here to convince me, so who is it, undecideds, non voters or some third group?

                If you really believed that the blood of innocent people was on the hands of every American due to Biden actions you wouldnā€™t be in here telling people to vote for him.

                If you believed that you were made a genocidare by his disgusting rhetoric and material support youā€™d be opposed to him. Youā€™d be in the streets protesting or campaigning to end support to israel or any other number of other actions but instead youā€™re on the internet trying to advocate against doing the bare minimum to stop Biden policy that you say taints us all. Media can say all kinds of things about protest movements and the White House can deploy its press secretary to dodge questions about crackdown on antiwar actions but neither can deny a vote cast and counted.

                Make your voice heard to them with the only device given you that canā€™t be manipulated or deepfaked or covered up. Vote third party this November.

                • Olgratin_Magmatoe@lemmy.world
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                  6 months ago

                  join me in telling everyone that they donā€™t have to vote for Biden. Thatā€™s how you get the thing you want. You commit to not voting for Biden.

                  The error in this is that you are relying on boomer whoā€™s supporting genocide to do the right thing. Be a gambler all you like, Iā€™m not going to gamble with fascism. Itā€™s shortsighted and will get overall more people killed.

                  Every fucking day Bidenā€™s campaign team sends me emails asking for donations, and they send me like 8 every day. And every time I respond with imagery of dead fucking bodies in Palestine. And do you know how theyā€™ve responded? They fucking havenā€™t. They know theyā€™re losing votes because of this. They know theyā€™re losing ground because of this, because every other email from them is them complaining that they are getting out fundraised by Trump.

                  But they donā€™t even give enough of a shit to have one of their lower level lackeys from their campaign team respond. They truly do not give a shit. And youā€™re gonna trust them to do the right thing and step down? Youā€™re gonna trust genocide supporters to do the right thing?

                  A vote can only ever be interpreted as blanket support for the candidateā€™s policies

                  Not so. A vote can be interpreted a million different ways. Itā€™s a number, not an essay of love. It is a statement saying ā€œof all of these choices, X is my preferenceā€. Trying to decipher any more meaning of that requires more data which isnā€™t captured in an election.

                  How do you tell the difference between a voter who chose a candidate at random versus one who chose them because they were best friends? You canā€™t.

                  You donā€™t get to say ā€œi like Biden but not his border detentionsā€, you get to say ā€œBidenā€.

                  Sure you can, you just did. Youā€™re comparing a fully articulated thought to a vote, of course they arenā€™t going to match.

                  As I wrote, I invoked a person considering voting for trump over Biden to illustrate how difficult it is to portray trump as a clear danger more important than an ongoing genocide.

                  It isnā€™t difficult to illustrate how much larger of a danger Trump is:

                  You said youā€™re not here to convince me, so who is it, undecideds, non voters or some third group?

                  Anybody fence sitting.

                  If you really believed that the blood of innocent people was on the hands of every American due to Biden actions you wouldnā€™t be in here telling people to vote for him.

                  Why not? And it isnā€™t just Bidenā€™s actions, itā€™s pretty much every major political action the U.S. has ever taken since itā€™s inception. And word of advice, if youā€™re trying to convince people, starting from a position of ā€œyou donā€™t ACTUALLY believe X because you said Yā€ is just silly, and a waste of everyoneā€™s time.

                  If you believed that you were made a genocidare by his disgusting rhetoric and material support youā€™d be opposed to him

                  Iā€™ve already explain thatā€™s not how this works. Itā€™s a two party system.

                  Youā€™d be in the streets protesting or campaigning to end support to israel or any other number of other actions

                  Iā€™m trying not to get shot by our police state and widowing my disabled wife. So yeah, fuck me I guess.

                  Make your voice heard to them with the only device given you that canā€™t be manipulated or deepfaked or covered up. Vote third party this November.

                  I will not be handing Trump another victory, no thank you. It was a disaster the first time we decided to botch it in 2016, itā€™s going to be even worse this time.

                  • bloodfart@lemmy.ml
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                    6 months ago

                    so tell me if ive got this right:

                    you donā€™t believe the democrats will listen or can be pushed left. you donā€™t believe they have any intention of changing course and that they have accepted that theyā€™ll lose votes because of it. you donā€™t believe they can be trusted to make the right choices, choices you would support.

                    you arenā€™t able to take direct action that would reflect your political beliefs and your clear eyed possession of a basic moral compass (iā€™m right there with you, my 60 hour workweek, family obligations and employer preclude me from much more than being present at events and holding signs).

                    but you wonā€™t reflect any of that with the action you are able to take in november, denying the democrats your vote that they have already counted out. you arenā€™t willing to make your voice heard in the only way that they will listen to.

                    you posted some memes and its important to recognize that this isnā€™t some hypothetical or thought experiment. a sitting american president is literally aiding a genocide and denying its existence at the same time. you have the opportunity to not support that action.

                    you can register your dissatisfaction with that in a way that cannot be deepfaked, covered up, misinterpreted or sidelined by casting a ballot for a party whose platform is ā€œpalestinian statehood and stop weapons shipments to israelā€.

                    it wonā€™t require that you put yourself in danger or that you expose yourself to attack and it doesnā€™t take any more time than what you were already planning to do.

                    on the topic of how a vote can be interpreted, let me give you a concrete example that will hopefully help illustrate what iā€™m saying: biden received 81,283,501 votes in 2020. was the biden campaign team able to examine, for example, vote number 12,345,678 and determine if that person genuinely believed in bidenā€™s platform or if they were simply disgusted with trumps covid response?

                    of course they were not. votes are interpreted by campaigns as support. they are not able to interpret them as anything but that. thatā€™s not because the voters genuinely support those candidates, but because the vote only contains information about support.

                    thatā€™s why campaigns use a bunch of other methods to figure out what people were actually trying to express with their votes, like polls, statistical analysis and interviews, to varying degrees of accuracy.

      • zbyte64@awful.systems
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        6 months ago

        Jokes on you, Iā€™m not voting for the sense of smug superiority. No lives matter, etc. /S