Surveillance video obtained by NBC10 Boston appears to show a man setting himself on fire outside the Four Seasons hotel in downtown Boston, in what witnesses described as a deeply upsetting scene. The incident happened around 8:15 p.m. Wednesday. There was a large police presence as investigators collected evidence and searched cars in the area. Boston EMS confirms a man…
Self immolation in the Imperial Core is an expression of profound helplessness, and speaks to the utter inability of the left to provide those people with a comprehensive ideological framework.
The U.S. State has done such an effective job of destroying revolutionary movements that those who could be drawn to a clear-headed Marxist perspective cannot find purchase; there are no revolutionary organizations that are not captured.
Blame Trotsky and the New Left I suppose (after you blame the State for the murder of the Black Panthers and the original BLM leaders).
There’s literally nothing for people to do. If you do adventurism you get denounced as a fed and the state uses it as an excuse to strengthen itself. If you immolate yourself you get denounced as a fed and news of it widely ignored. If you try to join a group the group is denounced as feds and the state uses the group existing as an excuse to strengthen itself.
Before I would’ve said it seems to be the action people take when they’re totally dedicated to non-violence even against people actively involved in genocide. But even that other dude was former military, so I don’t know.
I’d much rather these people go down raising hell than just go down. If they’re going to sacrifice themselves because they see no other way then the adventurist sacrifice is better than this, it at least might scare the shit out of the bourgeoisie.
Maybe it might be useful doming some major gentile zionist, but I think traditional adventurist actions like that tend to just be used as a pretext for cracking down on the left, while self-immolation so far is not, so I think it’s really the less harmful option.
Maybe if you can get an Israeli general or something, just because disrupting their operation might actually sink them at this point, while anyone could die in the US and the arms would keep flowing.
But really both suck and should be denounced as anti-social behavior.
People say that a lot, but it’s not really true. The state will make some encroachment hear or there periodically, but it’s nothing like the immediate move to crush dissent and organizing that we see when we give them an excuse. Probably the closest thing to a real argument is that “well, they’ll generate that excuse with agent provocateurs or whatever” to which I say “the correct response is to stop agent provocateurs, not do their work for them”. There’s a reason that the feds have a long history of trying to turn leftist activists (among others) into terrorists, and it’s because terrorism is useful to the state.
I agree, so let’s make sure that we are ready for it by developing leftist organization and that what the leftist action accomplishes is worth the blowback
Maybe it might be useful doming some major gentile zionist, but I think traditional adventurist actions like that tend to just be used as a pretext for cracking down on the left, while self-immolation so far is not, so I think it’s really the less harmful option.
I’m not convinced this is true in the current era we’re in. Until I actually see it happen I’m not conforming to the old school of thought on it. After seeing 2 successful assassinations and the Trump one actually scare the living shit out of him so much that I believe he has some real fear and ptsd from it I’m not convinced that our old head thoughts on these actions are correct.
I’m willing to change that view if something happens that genuinely does result in something that would’ve been better for us had it not occurred. But right now 3 things have happened that could be considered adventurism and all 3 times they’ve been fucking awesome, or in the case of trump maybe that was neutral? I lean towards good though just because i know damn well he’s scared shitless.
People are just too dogmatic about this. Palestine Action is very much doing work even though they’re technically being adventurist. The orgs doing it the rightTM way haven’t come close to the amount of material good Palestine Action has done. Is “building a working class movement” by protesting at the DNC supposed to help the Palestinians somehow?
The way I see it is imagine if you were a socialist in 1941 Germany who, through alignment of the stars, was able to avoid conscription to the Wehrmacht but couldn’t leave Germany. What would socialist praxis look like in 1941 Germany? It would essentially be blowing up railroads and bridges, sabotaging airplanes and tanks, and committing wanton acts of violence against random Germany bureaucrats through gruesome murders. At best, you might have contacts with Allied intelligence and smuggle sensitive government documents, but every other form of socialist praxis is pretty much just every form of adventurism. I’m sure killing the German leader would’ve alienated the German working masses, but the German working masses were completely on board with exterminating Jews, Roma, and other undesirables in 1941. The whole tailist-commandist paradigm just doesn’t make sense. The path to socialism with German characteristics in 1941 is the complete destruction of the German state wrought by the Red Army and the forceful reorganization of the German state into a socialist one by the Soviet Union. The proper socialist praxis would be being an underground partisan movement based within the heart of the German war machine itself.
East Germany, like the DPRK, had its founding facilitated by the Soviet Union, but was actually constructed mainly by Germans, as evidenced by their somewhat different laws. There were aspects that the SU demanded, but generally they did respect that a dictatorship of the proletariat has to be democratic. It was a bit easier to accomplish by the thorough purging of the Nazis, of course.
The Trump assassination was a) such a failure that it barely scratched him, b) not against a sitting official, and c) did not actually accomplish anything (his ptsd does not seem to have actually changed anything outside him). I don’t think we can use the lack of backlash to prove much of anything given these features.
Abe’s assassination was literally one of the most effective political assassinations of all time in terms of causing concrete policy changes, and that was in large part because of the existing racist animosity in the Japanese population towards the moonies, along with the killer having basically the perfect message to tell the media (and not getting killed before he could tell it) of actually supporting Abe politically but having his mother suffer due to one specific policy.
I don’t know what the other assassination you are referring to is. Remember, I didn’t rule out the killing of an Israeli general or something because it would be concretely useful for disrupting Israeli military operations, but I really think that if you kill some gentile Zionist politician, it just won’t matter because the system does not rely on them and the media will still call you an antisemite and move on. If they’re a Jewish Zionist, forget about it.
It being “less harmful” implies whatever the westerners are doing in protest currently are useful enough that disrupting it would become harmful to the cause.
I think shattering the existing BDS movement would be bad, actually, even if we wish it was more effective. It has still gotten some institutions to divest.
I think self immolation is a intensely contradictory thing.
Because on the one hand I don’t want people to do it, at all, I don’t want the people who have the courage and the compassion to do it, to do it and die. These people were comrades. And it often feels like it doesn’t even tip the scale against the atrocities that it is in protest of.
On the other the people who do are heroes. I’m not religious but while we argued about Bushnell here, the Palestinians, the Yemeni, all the oppressed people fighting this genocide immediately recognised Bushnell as a hero and martyr. It shows the oppressed people that even in the heart of the Great Satan, people support their righteous cause.
Like it’s complicated and I would like it if the cause of it was not happening, rather than just self-immolation was not happening.
People were shit talking Bushnell in the original thread when it happened. But I think it can arguably be more effective than fragging folks in the building or something. Obviously, encouraging suicide isn’t good as a standard. The people in charge won’t care either way. But if voters work mostly on vibes, which they often do, this paints a picture of “peaceful person harmed only themselves to protest the government’s evil actions” instead of letting people handwave them away by focusing on them hurting other people instead.
People don’t generally know what Thích Quảng Đức was protesting, but given images of a burning monk, they assume the people who let that happen and that prompted the action are the villains. Of course, there’s tons of people who handwave away people like in the OP as just those with mental illness already prone to suicide. So it could really go either way.
If OP is another Bushnell, I wish they hadn’t died and had lived to continue fighting alongside other comrades, but I respect they care enough about something to go to these lengths because it often feels like nobody cares at all.
I know. If Bushnell didn’t stop the war then why would anyone think this is the way to go? I guess it makes a scene and brings attention but that’s next to nothing, attentions are frayed these days.
Bushnell seemed to have a lot to live for. They were happily leaving the Air Force having recognised how evil the USA was, had posted about planning to study and other careers. There’s some speculation Bushnell might have been trans (usernames, posts and subreddits visited). Things seemed good and there was no concerns about their mental health from friends or family. The genocide in Palestine seems to genuinely effect them to the point where self-immolation seemed to be the only option. All very devastating.
hats off to the CIA if they MKUltra someone into self immolation. usually the best they can do is to pay idiots money to do violent acts in (country the US doesn’t like) and they fail like 90% of the time
I feel like self immolation is a psyop to keep people from adventurism. Cause like this is depressing depressing.
Self immolation in the Imperial Core is an expression of profound helplessness, and speaks to the utter inability of the left to provide those people with a comprehensive ideological framework.
The U.S. State has done such an effective job of destroying revolutionary movements that those who could be drawn to a clear-headed Marxist perspective cannot find purchase; there are no revolutionary organizations that are not captured.
Blame Trotsky and the New Left I suppose (after you blame the State for the murder of the Black Panthers and the original BLM leaders).
TL;DR - Imperial Core collapse in slow motion
There’s literally nothing for people to do. If you do adventurism you get denounced as a fed and the state uses it as an excuse to strengthen itself. If you immolate yourself you get denounced as a fed and news of it widely ignored. If you try to join a group the group is denounced as feds and the state uses the group existing as an excuse to strengthen itself.
We should probably stop fed-jacketing people with zero evidence
Before I would’ve said it seems to be the action people take when they’re totally dedicated to non-violence even against people actively involved in genocide. But even that other dude was former military, so I don’t know.
I’d much rather these people go down raising hell than just go down. If they’re going to sacrifice themselves because they see no other way then the adventurist sacrifice is better than this, it at least might scare the shit out of the bourgeoisie.
Maybe it might be useful doming some major gentile zionist, but I think traditional adventurist actions like that tend to just be used as a pretext for cracking down on the left, while self-immolation so far is not, so I think it’s really the less harmful option.
Maybe if you can get an Israeli general or something, just because disrupting their operation might actually sink them at this point, while anyone could die in the US and the arms would keep flowing.
But really both suck and should be denounced as anti-social behavior.
They’ll crack down on the left regardless of what we do.
People say that a lot, but it’s not really true. The state will make some encroachment hear or there periodically, but it’s nothing like the immediate move to crush dissent and organizing that we see when we give them an excuse. Probably the closest thing to a real argument is that “well, they’ll generate that excuse with agent provocateurs or whatever” to which I say “the correct response is to stop agent provocateurs, not do their work for them”. There’s a reason that the feds have a long history of trying to turn leftist activists (among others) into terrorists, and it’s because terrorism is useful to the state.
The excuse “not being given” is indicative of the general lack of leftist action; when that happens, repression will follow in tow
I agree, so let’s make sure that we are ready for it by developing leftist organization and that what the leftist action accomplishes is worth the blowback
Lone wolves are useful to the state. Organized action however, is not.
I was explicitly referring to adventurists
I’m not convinced this is true in the current era we’re in. Until I actually see it happen I’m not conforming to the old school of thought on it. After seeing 2 successful assassinations and the Trump one actually scare the living shit out of him so much that I believe he has some real fear and ptsd from it I’m not convinced that our old head thoughts on these actions are correct.
I’m willing to change that view if something happens that genuinely does result in something that would’ve been better for us had it not occurred. But right now 3 things have happened that could be considered adventurism and all 3 times they’ve been fucking awesome, or in the case of trump maybe that was neutral? I lean towards good though just because i know damn well he’s scared shitless.
People are just too dogmatic about this. Palestine Action is very much doing work even though they’re technically being adventurist. The orgs doing it the rightTM way haven’t come close to the amount of material good Palestine Action has done. Is “building a working class movement” by protesting at the DNC supposed to help the Palestinians somehow?
The way I see it is imagine if you were a socialist in 1941 Germany who, through alignment of the stars, was able to avoid conscription to the Wehrmacht but couldn’t leave Germany. What would socialist praxis look like in 1941 Germany? It would essentially be blowing up railroads and bridges, sabotaging airplanes and tanks, and committing wanton acts of violence against random Germany bureaucrats through gruesome murders. At best, you might have contacts with Allied intelligence and smuggle sensitive government documents, but every other form of socialist praxis is pretty much just every form of adventurism. I’m sure killing the German leader would’ve alienated the German working masses, but the German working masses were completely on board with exterminating Jews, Roma, and other undesirables in 1941. The whole tailist-commandist paradigm just doesn’t make sense. The path to socialism with German characteristics in 1941 is the complete destruction of the German state wrought by the Red Army and the forceful reorganization of the German state into a socialist one by the Soviet Union. The proper socialist praxis would be being an underground partisan movement based within the heart of the German war machine itself.
There’s Abe. Which one is the other one? Prigo?
This blanquist bullshit is beneath you.
East Germany, like the DPRK, had its founding facilitated by the Soviet Union, but was actually constructed mainly by Germans, as evidenced by their somewhat different laws. There were aspects that the SU demanded, but generally they did respect that a dictatorship of the proletariat has to be democratic. It was a bit easier to accomplish by the thorough purging of the Nazis, of course.
The Trump assassination was a) such a failure that it barely scratched him, b) not against a sitting official, and c) did not actually accomplish anything (his ptsd does not seem to have actually changed anything outside him). I don’t think we can use the lack of backlash to prove much of anything given these features.
Abe’s assassination was literally one of the most effective political assassinations of all time in terms of causing concrete policy changes, and that was in large part because of the existing racist animosity in the Japanese population towards the moonies, along with the killer having basically the perfect message to tell the media (and not getting killed before he could tell it) of actually supporting Abe politically but having his mother suffer due to one specific policy.
I don’t know what the other assassination you are referring to is. Remember, I didn’t rule out the killing of an Israeli general or something because it would be concretely useful for disrupting Israeli military operations, but I really think that if you kill some gentile Zionist politician, it just won’t matter because the system does not rely on them and the media will still call you an antisemite and move on. If they’re a Jewish Zionist, forget about it.
more specifically, 2 billionaires (or their spouses) that are funding dems and republicans
It being “less harmful” implies whatever the westerners are doing in protest currently are useful enough that disrupting it would become harmful to the cause.
I think shattering the existing BDS movement would be bad, actually, even if we wish it was more effective. It has still gotten some institutions to divest.
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I think self immolation is a intensely contradictory thing.
Because on the one hand I don’t want people to do it, at all, I don’t want the people who have the courage and the compassion to do it, to do it and die. These people were comrades. And it often feels like it doesn’t even tip the scale against the atrocities that it is in protest of.
On the other the people who do are heroes. I’m not religious but while we argued about Bushnell here, the Palestinians, the Yemeni, all the oppressed people fighting this genocide immediately recognised Bushnell as a hero and martyr. It shows the oppressed people that even in the heart of the Great Satan, people support their righteous cause.
Like it’s complicated and I would like it if the cause of it was not happening, rather than just self-immolation was not happening.
People were shit talking Bushnell in the original thread when it happened. But I think it can arguably be more effective than fragging folks in the building or something. Obviously, encouraging suicide isn’t good as a standard. The people in charge won’t care either way. But if voters work mostly on vibes, which they often do, this paints a picture of “peaceful person harmed only themselves to protest the government’s evil actions” instead of letting people handwave them away by focusing on them hurting other people instead.
People don’t generally know what Thích Quảng Đức was protesting, but given images of a burning monk, they assume the people who let that happen and that prompted the action are the villains. Of course, there’s tons of people who handwave away people like in the OP as just those with mental illness already prone to suicide. So it could really go either way.
If OP is another Bushnell, I wish they hadn’t died and had lived to continue fighting alongside other comrades, but I respect they care enough about something to go to these lengths because it often feels like nobody cares at all.
wasn’t me tho
Its very obvious that it does nothing.
It robs us of our most dedicated comrades to shame people who are immune to shame. It is not a fair trade
I know. If Bushnell didn’t stop the war then why would anyone think this is the way to go? I guess it makes a scene and brings attention but that’s next to nothing, attentions are frayed these days.
I think they are just army guys who can’t live with themselves
Bushnell seemed to have a lot to live for. They were happily leaving the Air Force having recognised how evil the USA was, had posted about planning to study and other careers. There’s some speculation Bushnell might have been trans (usernames, posts and subreddits visited). Things seemed good and there was no concerns about their mental health from friends or family. The genocide in Palestine seems to genuinely effect them to the point where self-immolation seemed to be the only option. All very devastating.
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hats off to the CIA if they MKUltra someone into self immolation. usually the best they can do is to pay idiots money to do violent acts in (country the US doesn’t like) and they fail like 90% of the time