(I have amended the title of this post based on feedback and critique, to more acutely reflect the target of my grievance)
This could be a bad take, but, hear me out.
I was once a subscriber to r/atheism a long time ago. I was absolutely a smug ass fucking atheist. I’m not sure what it was that caused this world view I held to change, but as time marched on I’ve grown incredibly suspect of anyone who willingly identifies themselves as an “atheist”.
I grew up going to church every week. That slowed as I got older. I remember my grandmother telling me I needed to cut my hair at church, and telling her “I have hair like Jesus, you think Jesus should cut his hair?” I learned later we stopped going to church because they started preaching about antiabortion and my mother wanted nothing to do with that.
So I was at least fairly indifferent about religion by the time I was in highschool. I remember Atheism giving me a sense of superiority that was deeply rooted in “facts and logic” despite being a severely under read dipshit in highschool. I’m sure I spent countless amounts of time debating people in comments, being a general idiot on the internet. Probably passively consumed a bunch of Hitchens work/ideas without having read any of his books.
At some point I stopped putting a lot of thought into it, and this smug sensibility was pushed into the back of my brain. Then in 2020, like a lot of people, I was swept up in this rise in socialist thinking, leading me to change my entire perspective on the world.
I think it wasn’t until recently, when I was having a conversation with someone I knew and the topic of Islam came up that I realized how much I had distances myself from this smug atheist perspective. They said something about Islam being an “inherently violent religion”, and my gut, instinctual reaction was to blurt out “What? What makes you think that’s true?” They responded with something being in the Quran, and again, like water from a faucet the words “Listen, maybe that’s true, maybe its not, but Islamic people are not a monolith.” poured out of me and the conversation kind of died on the vine.
The reason I’m even thinking about this today is because, of all things, I watched the Asmongold “apology” video he published today. He attributes his shit ass takes about Palestinians being an inferior culture and thus worthy of genocide to his “hatred for religious extremism of all kinds”. He goes on to say that he was or is a “r/atheist enjoyer” and a self professed “atheist”. It really confirmed a lot of assumptions I have about atheism that I guess have been lingering in my skull.
Those assumptions being that Atheism is, on it’s face, a religion in and of itself. It’s belief is in that of non-belief. It has missionaries like most other religious belief systems, seeking to secularize communities and cultures. It believes it is the one true religion and that all other religions are false religions with false gods. It demonizes all other practitioners of these false religions indiscriminately, believing that they are either upholding their wicked systems of oppression, or are directly complicit in them. Countless books have been written about the its theology and the logic of its faith. It is a fully fledged faith, in that you have to believe in this non-belief, on faith that you will be proven correct when you die.
Not only all this but its clear to me now that Atheism is the western liberal religious belief system. Its fully compatible with western chauvinism, as it demonizes the wests enemies on the grounds of their systems of belief, which are regularly the reason for the wests interventions. Western wars are “secular” wars and as such they are atheist colonial projects as well. The idea that modernizing a backwards 3rd world country would bring about liberal democracy and with it liberal values. Atheism is liberal values.
Now this isn’t to say that religious violence doesn’t exist or that religious extremism is also a fable, but instead that Atheism and its ideas are a form of religious persecution, it breeds the same phobic believes that other religions develop about the ones they are attempting to conquer. The Atheist believes that through the abolition of religion, via changing hearts and minds, a entire form of violence will be removed as well. It completely denies the material realities and conditions that cause religious extremism to begin with. Because of this, it doesn’t recognize that to achieve a secular world, it will only be done so through violence.
Somehow the atheist believes that religion and culture are all somehow disconnected and isolated phenomenon. That somehow you can remove religion from the equation without damaging or altering culture. That some how this secularization will happen quietly and without conflict.
When I’m asked if I’m religious I say no. if asked if I’m an atheist, I say no. The only thing I would identify as in this context is as a materialist. It matters not to me what lays beyond the vale of life, but what does matter to me is what is happening here and now. Pain and suffering exists here in this conscious reality. Happiness can be achieved here in this conscious reality. That happiness can include religious and spiritual belief.
I have no conclusions here. This is just the ramblings of an old wizard. If I’m off base here please tell me. Interested in your perspectives as always comrades.
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I agree with almost everything you said but feel the need to point out “Athiesm is a religion too” is a christian young earth creationist framing/argument/propaganda/whatever you wanna call it. It is an interesting perspective and certainly close enough to true for some athiests, but it isn’t ultimately a productive argument to make for anyone who isn’t trying to convert people, IMO.
Another one that is a pet peeve of mine is when they call people “Evolutionists” to try and argue believing in evolution is a religion and not based on evidence.
point out “Athiesm is a religion too” is a christian young earth creationist framing/argument/propaganda/whatever you wanna call it
That’s interesting, I’ve never encountered that framing before. My position stems from the same kind of hegemonic ideology that is so insidious in the west. I think New-Atheism (which, it turns out, is what my specific grievance is actually about) hitches a ride onto western, imperialist, hegemonic thinking and becomes a kind of collective belief that holds all the same tenets as a colonial, imperial, Christianity would have. Because so much of this New-Atheist ideology is intertwined with post 9/11 bloodlust (which is where its rise and mutation really begins), it takes on this kind of expansionist character. There is so much at stake with that belief, that we should be secularizing eastern countries through US armed intervention for the betterment of humankind, that you HAVE to be a BELIEVER because to be wrong in this situation means you have committed yourself to the same kind of brutal and violent crusade that your belief system rails against. So, in that way, it is this self-reinforcing system of non-belief. Becoming a nonbeliever (in the tenets of New-Atheism) casts you out of this group, in the same way becoming a nonbeliever would cast you out of some religious circles as well.
I’d be curious to know more about this “Young Earth Creationist” framing, that’s really interesting.
It’s not just a YEC thing, and I wouldn’t even call it an invalid/bad faith framing. I’ve heard it from Catholic priests a billion times, some variation of the argument that secular society shifts man’s dependence on God to dependence on Mammon; secularism inherently leads to people finding other means to explain their existence and give it value, modern capitalist society programs people to find that value in material wealth and success.
tbh I’ve never really engaged in atheist spaces. once I formed my opinion, I didn’t feel the need to go to spaces just to talk about atheism. I’ve heard the spaces you’re describing are incredibly frustrating and often miss the point of atheism, but I don’t let it stop me from identifying that way. they’re just one (western) rendition of it
I’m absolutely anti-religious and see it as harmful to the world, but it doesn’t do any good to be combative against it imo. material conditions first and, hopefully, it starts to fall after
I agree with the complaints, but just as Muslims are not a monolith, neither are atheists. I call myself an atheist because it’s the most accurate word for me. I would call myself an anti-theist in the past when I was like you were. Anti-theism is a belief structure. Atheism is not. Many anti-theists just call themselves atheist, because it’s more acceptable, but they aren’t only that. There are a ton of humanist atheists, for example, who want people to be able to live happy healthy lives of their choice. Atheism is broad and not particularly descriptive of actions.
“There’s such a definitive lack of evidence for god that one can and should reasonably conclude he doesn’t exist.” My belief in that statement is why I call myself an atheist to friends and family.
I don’t use the label publically in spaces like these because most people have the take that you have. My honest impression is 1) Some famous “athiests” (whose past debates I still enjoy) have unrelated, shitty views, and 2) just that right-wing dinguses have somewhat hijacked the perception of the label (eg Peterson).
I really don’t engage with the terminally online drama culture about atheism, so maybe I underestimate the scale. But in my mind, I am atheist, and I think that label has value because religious dogma is still so all-present, pervasive and generally negative.
Those assumptions being that Atheism is, on it’s face, a religion in and of itself. It’s belief is in that of non-belief. It has missionaries like most other religious belief systems, seeking to secularize communities and cultures. It believes it is the one true religion and that all other religions are false religions with false gods. It demonizes all other practitioners of these false religions indiscriminately, believing that they are either upholding their wicked systems of oppression, or are directly complicit in them. Countless books have been written about the its theology and the logic of its faith. [and they’re universally poorly reasoned sophistry -ed]. It is a fully fledged faith, in that you have to believe in this non-belief, on faith that you will be proven correct when you die.
Bad take imo. Atheism isn’t a religion; unbelief is not a belief, and this tired chestnut that “Atheism requires just as much faith as a belief system that posits a supernatural omnipotent creator, physics-defying miracles, and an afterlife for which there is neither plausible physical justification nor any hard evidence” has its source in Christian apologetics.
Atheism does have one element in common with religion, and that is that it is an identity, one that often immediately cuts you off from participation in your local community, which still revolves around the church in a lot of the world. And choosing to take on that identity knowing you might end up a local pariah can be more appealing to the already privileged or the socially incorrigible, among which groups I think we find most of movement atheism’s bad actors.
Ideally we live in a world where atheism is unremarkable because it’s the default. I used to be a live-and-let-live religious pluralist but I’m now more convinced by Engels’ argument that atheism is a precondition to communism because you can’t dismantle hierarchies when a bunch of people believe in a unaccountable ruler who only issues judgments after death and whose laws are so up for interpretation people have fought wars over theological disagreements. Yeah, you can be religious and keep it to yourself but it’s still a gateway to bad thinking and social factionalism.
You’re mad about settler colonialism and patriarchy, and rightfully so. Reddit atheism is one of the many faces of the white patriarchy and a particularly annoying one. It does not represent the vast majority of atheists who mostly just say “oh yeah I don’t do that stuff” and live the rest of their lives as normal.
As someone who was raised religiously I completely disagree with you here. Stripping away people’s religion may be difficult or an untenable position for building a worker’s movement, as such it needs to be handled delicately. However, because of religion and religious activities related to I have deeply onset psychological issues related to seeing myself and engaging with others.
I didn’t engage with natural exploration in adolescence due to my Christianity, and natural desires and impulses caused extreme psychological distress for me. Furthermore, the conception of original sin being passed down into every child from birth can be and was damaging to young children’s self esteem.
The idea that you have something fundamentally wrong with you that you can only get rid through unresponsive prayers is psychologically traumatizing.
Live and let live is not the answer and if you talk to the apostates who leave these religions you’d find many similar attitudes.
That being said, the chauvinistic tendencies listed above that spawn from many reactionary atheist in the West is additionally harmful, if not more so.
You know that’s a fair point, thank you for sharing. I was basically raised atheist so I don’t actually know the perspective of people who’ve gotten away from the church.
I will always call myself an atheist, even if new atheists suck a shit ton.
I’m an atheist, an antitheist even, as a black Marxist and a materialist, not an atheist as a white, American/British chud who thinks that transphobia and Zionism are an extension of my bubble of “rational” thoughts I’ve conjured up using FACTS and LOGIC.
In essence, I agree with a ton of what you said, and I’m glad comrades were able to get you to realize that generalizing atheists because of terminally online Dawkins/Harris/Hitchens fans on Reddit is a bit myopic.
Seems like you just hate redditors,
Don’t we all?
The growing religious sentiment in the US really concerns me, I wish we had an atheist movement that was actually good.
I agree.
I think you just have a problem with new atheists. If I remember things correctly, the original meaning of the prefix of “new” came from not being socialist and left-wing, but still being atheists. Since, traditionally atheism was associated with the left-wing (e.g. godless communists, godless socialists, etc.).
I do identify as an atheist, but always found myself hating the reddit/new atheists very highly. Obviously due to Islamophobia, but also because I had a lot of experience with what in my opinion were “good Christians” even if I still didn’t believe in God. The most devout people I knew were my grandparents and a high school teacher. The grandparents were Lutherans and despite otherwise being white liberals, they did actually take their beliefs seriously enough that their reaction to MLK was “this guy is correct, all people are created equal and segregation and racism is wrong”, and the activists that they met in the Civil Rights marches led them to follow it up by being in favor of activism for LGBTQ rights and for AIDs support during the 80s. And my high school Chemistry teacher became a teacher after being fired for heresy as a pastor. If I remember correctly, the last straw was officiating a gay marriage right after California started allowing gay marriage in the early 2000s. He believed that God giving humans sovereignty over the earth still meant that we had to take care of God’s creation, so all true Christians should be radical environmentalists and firmly in favor of animal rights. He also believed that Christianity is anti-capitalist since they shouldn’t strive for wealth, should make sure that everyone is looked after, and several parts of the New Testament call for a form of asceticism instead of indulging in luxury.
This doesn’t in any way prove God exists and again, there are material reasons for religious belief and expression. Just that I do think that the “Reddit Atheist” deeply misunderstands religion and gives atheism a bad name.
See, I grew up amongst normal atheists. I spent half my time with retired revolutionaries in a communist retirement community in Wuhan, China. The last of the elves to see the Light of the Two Trees of Valinor. So a lot more Maoist than the general Chinese population. Some comrades who were stationed in Shaanxi throughout the war(s), even some who participated in the long march.
After all, as l’internationale goes, 从来就没有什么救世主，也不靠神仙皇帝/Il n’est pas de sauveurs suprêmes Ni Dieu, ni César, ni tribun.
Some still held cultural beliefs that could be seen as a religious practice but it was not to serve any religion. Some who had seen the worst of the second war were more adamant that there are no powers above. I suppose if you witnessed Nanking during/immediately after WWII, you’d be angry at the gods for standing by and doing nothing. How good can the gods be if they stood by and watched when even the literal Nazi John Rabe had enough humanity to try and stop the slaughter? But understanding that the people have their beliefs was also a part of it. The most toxic and harmful parts were purged in the Cultural Revolution, who’s to stop someone from joining the monks or having a statue of 观音 and lighting incense? The very people we fight for, the people who sheltered us during the Long March, the people who took up arms with us in the name of liberation. If the anti science, anti feminist and counter revolutionary aspects were purged, what harm is there in people observing holidays, praying and restricting their diets? To fast during Ramadan, to walk the path of the Buddha, to honour ones ancestors, to light fireworks to scare off the Nian, etc. Those things don’t have to be toxic.
But upon moving to the west, atheism became Atheism, it was an identity. It was commodified and used to sell laptop stickers and books. It was a brand. To be Atheist is to debate Christians and buy Richard Dawkins books and share Hitchens’ quotes and feel holier than thou. “In this moment, I am euphoric” sort of thing. To be Atheist is to be insufferable. Worse, they seem to just abandon the Christian part of Christian Chauvinism and just become Chauvinists. In some aspects, it’s not only feeling smugly superior to the brown people believing in primitive gods or the “Moslems”, it’s to also feel smugly superior to Evangelicals, too. It’s the next evolution of being a chauvinist. Critical support for their opposition of Young Earth Creationists and anti abortion dickheads, yes, but you cannot excuse their support for Western imperialism, literal and cultural, in the global south.
I guess in the end, atheism is a land of contrasts.
It was always sus that the disbelief in something was its own identity. “Atheist” should’ve just stuck as an adjective like “irreligious.” Imagine going around calling yourself an irreligionist. Hell, irreligionist makes more sense since an irreligionist would hypothetically be someone who neither practices nor believes while an atheist could always practice a religion without necessarily believing in the metaphysical trappings of the religion. The whole “atheism is just another religion” spiel is people correctly observing that Western atheists still practice and navigate the world like Western Protestants even if they no longer profess belief in the God of Abraham and no longer believe in the infallibility of the Bible.
It’s a thoroughly undialectical and idealist understanding of a social phenomenon, in this case religion, that I think dialectical materialists should be above.
This is why I generally identify as agnostic
I’m not out to prove anybody wrong, I just have other things I think are way more important
I think you’re tilting at a specific brand of Atheism, and that one of the problems here is that Atheism isn’t cleanly divided into cults and offshoots the way that religions tend to be. For the specific brand of western chauvinist Atheism you’re talking about, I propose the name “Hitchensism,” after one of its founding thinkers in the modern world.
Yeah that’s fair actually. Its really American Atheism, or Western Atheism I have a problem with. Encountering another nonbeliever in the west is a real dice roll.
I agree with Marx on this one. Religion is a reflection of materialist conditions. To that end, any group cultures is going to be, in some way, a reflection of materialist conditions. Therefore, Atheist talking as a group will be somewhat identical to religion.
For my honest beliefs, I will happily label myself as athiest; antithiest. Any “God” that treats it’s children this way is in no way worthy of worship. And I would rather believe that I was just very unlucky than to believe that a consciousness in the universe chose to curse me with the afflictions I face.
Not that I’m trying to criticize this post or endorse an /r/atheism worldview, but I have to say that this site is in an ironic position as a bunch of avowed leftists, with a ton of us being some flavor of ML, and being against atheism. Marxism is traditionally atheist, ML states have often been officially atheist, because religion is opposed to a materialist worldview.
It’s always seemed to me that a lot of the the new/reddit atheist types were people who grew up in right wing Evangelical households and environment and broke out of it. They have a very understandable and correct hatred for that shit, but too many of them never really broke out of the pattern of thought they were taught. They kept the dogmatic, black-and-white worldview complete with smug superiority, just with a new dogma. Anecdotally I would sometimes argue with them against Jesus Mythicism and it was like banging my head against a wall. (Like, motherfucker I don’t believe in the miracles or god shit either, but every piece of historical evidence points to there having been a dude who led a minor religious movement in Judea and got crucified by the authorities. Why is that so hard to admit? No one is asking you to believe anything else!)
But even so, I’m still pretty much an atheist even if I share your distaste for that word and the people who usually self-apply it, because what the hell else am I supposed to be? What, you want me to be Christian? I’m not doing that shit.
Yeah the more comments I read the more I understand my specific grievance. Specifically the brand of Atheism pushed by the likes of Hitchens and Dawkins, and others, sometimes called New-Atheism.
I’ve amended my title to reflect this realization.
Naturally in not advocating against being an atheist, but specifically this western chauvinistic brand of atheist. It’s ironic that Hitchens called himself a Marxist.
