what a lack of dialectical materialism does to a mothafucka.
“Latent racism” as if this shit is an inherent property of humanity and not an instilled ideology, an “original sin”. The christian moralism and idealism reeks from here.
making absolutist moralist denouncements instead of trying to see the chain of events, the cause, and to fix it
when Liberals and Idealists make racism into a “true” platonic eternal evil, all they are doing is admitting they will never fix or solve the issue and don’t know how to. They are even admitting that it’s somewhat correct or at least has a basis in reality because it’s an inherent law of the universe apparently that we can never escape. Racism was invented on a specific date, not too long ago, and it can be abolished. Anything that was created by people can be destroyed by people too.
thank you. “people are just racist” is such idealist nonsense and is itself a take playing into racist ideas. wild to see that shit on here, would think folks would know better by now.
the dangerous thing about moralism is it perpetuates itself. evil is never eradicated, it’s an eternal battle. It’s a resignation that contradictions cannot be resolved and that history is over
I’m not sure, I know a lot of enjoying life racists that love Trump. Country club going never been to a minority neighborhood but quote Tucker Carlson racist, own multiple properties and boats due to underpaying day laborers and call them wetback racist, north shore mansion Long Island Zionist that think the Dems are soft on Palestine racist.
Like economic anxiety my ass, most of the wealthy people I know love Trump and love being racist.
The ideology of every society is the ideology of the ruling class. The rich are the most racist of all. The poor and workers don’t become racist until A) They are under severe economic pressure & B) They have the ideology of the rich drilled into their brain since birth
The ultra wealthy live in comfort because their racism has succeeded. That’s the end goal of the system, and they have a vested interest to reproduce the system for the continued existence of their class.
Don’t get me wrong, i’d happily put a bullet between the eyes of a racist if they stood in the way of the revolution. Think of all the Nazis that hardliner marxists like me have put into the ground. I’m not morally absolving them, I’m explaining the mechanism to break the cycle of their reproduction so we can put one last generation into the ground and then be done with it.
I mean ive heard all these arguments before saying capitalism is the sole cause of racism, i dont agree with it.
Racism will be here regardless of whether we are in capitalist shithead land or not, i think we have an obligation to speak out against it and organize against it.
I am saying it. Look at italians. Thye were swartly PoC and in our lifetimes they were upgraded to white because we needed more numbers to opress the other minorities with. Before that it was the Irish. Looks like pretty soon Brazilians will be white too. After them probably some Cubans than eventually all Cubans. The japanese were white for a while because we needed people to opress the Chinese with. They lost it when they stoped being a useful tool.
White is not about race. It is a class under cpaitlaism. So long as there is money to be made we will always racialize new and interesting outgroups.
But which came first. Is he other because he is black? Or is he black because he us other. Compare a melungion person to a light skinned black person. In that situation race has almost nothing to do with race and everything to do with ses.
There are plenty of differences we don’t create “race” around. Some of which are even more heritable than a skin color. I think though pi,king thr most obvious one despite it being much less informative or useful is a clear indicator race doesn’t actually matter as such. It only matters in it’s ease of use for capitlaism
Look at italians. Thye were swartly PoC and in our lifetimes they were upgraded to white because we needed more numbers to opress the other minorities with. Before that it was the Irish
you’re disproving your own point here. Irish and Italians entered the US at the same time. Irish racism died out in the early-mid 1900s, Italians faced mild racism as late as the 1990s, and still do if they’re dark enough
“Racism is economic bc we needed to water down the definition of white to ally against even darker hordes” isn’t the winning argument that you think it is
Yeah, the Irish were made cops so that put them up the class structure. Turning men at arms into full citizens was a classic move. There is no fundamental difference between them, they just found themselves in diffrent places in the super structure and were treated diffrent as material circumstances would dictate.
Cause they were already partially converted by British colonization. The Irish were papists just like the Italians.
You are proposing the Irish were whiter so they got treated better? That ignores the times in which they were not treated better. I don’t think you can construct a clear line through this data.
No one is saying capitalism is the sole cause of racism, that’s completely ahistorical. But what is historical fact is the capitalism greatly exacerbates existing racisms.
capitalism is the primary cause and engine of racism. Racialism was invented in the 17th century alongside the mercantile transition into capitalism. Capitalism and Racism were born together and will die together, they are twins.
No it was not, the concept of race was invented around this time. Perhaps you mean prejudice and ethnic sectarianism? That certainly existed. Race did not. Might behoove you to do some reading on this subject before pontificating with false confidence
This only makes sense if you define “racism” exclusively as “white supremacism”. But you’re not saying much at that point. You’re just saying racism as we currently experience it is a product of capitalism. Which, duh, everything is.
Racism existed before capitalism and can exist after. Examples: the Caste System, the Khmer Rouge. Shit even Christopher Columbus was about as racist as you can get and that’s right before capitalism kicks off. The Racialism you’re describing is just the ideological petina that capitalists put on their pre-existing racism.
I am. Race isn’t real. It is an artificial construction we shape to whatever we please. There is no connectivity tissue to it. If capitlaism didn’t enforce it it would wither and die on the vine.
Yes race is totally artificial, and capitalism has invented an intense apparatus to justify it. But the belief in it and the economic forces that drive that belief will exist as long as there is inequality and scarcity. Communism would eliminate that but there are other systems than communism and capitalism. They just wouldn’t be all pseudo scientific about it like the capitalists would.
capitalism has invented an intense apparatus to justify it
You have the causality backwards. Capitalism doesn’t invent things to justify racism, racism is invented to justify Capitalism. Capitalism required slavery, so it required an ideology that made it OK for certain people to become slaves. The racism was post hoc justification for what Capitalism already intended to do.
Europeans didn’t go “look at these black Africans, I hate them so much I might as well enslave them” and then stumble accidentally into capitalism. They realized they required cheap start-up labor for the primitive accumulation of fixed capital and went out looking for it.
Sure, it’s possible depending on the specific features and contexts which are so detailed that I won’t even go into them. As well as family connections, accents, etc.
But if your Latinx friend is blue eyed and pale, and you’re a very swarthy curly haired dark eyed “white” Sicilian, the friend can benefit from “white-passing privilege” relative to your white ass
I have never heard of Doug and Ben and don’t know what they’re all on about. Class reductionists are a thing but idk if that’s what they are without reading their words.
Forget about class reductionism, how about any class analysis whatsoever? OP’s “analysis” is pure race reductionism and moralism without a single ounce of Marxist thought instilled.
Apparently using any class analysis whatsoever or referencing factual historical origins of things is “class reductionism” now?
Im not beholden to marx like you are, i just want better outcomes for everyone and saying racism would “disappear with capitalism” is dangerously ignorant of history.
i have no problem saying im just a non sectarian leftist who wants the best for everyone.
There was racism against celts and people perceived to be “others” long before the advent of capitalism dude, by all means keep screaming at me obnoxiously about how im a liberal who hasnt read marx (idgaf lol)
im not saying class doesnt play any factor at all, contrary to your weird straw-mans.
lol. sorry but “espousing dialectical materialism is making excuses for individual racists” is such a baby brained take i will not engage with it any further. you genuinely sound like a wrecker. read stalin.
It’s true. America is such a segregated society it is almost inevitable, so long as the construct of race exists. The anxiety causes even good-natured people to do awkward shit sometimes. But the elites will literally use anything they can to divide us up. Skin is one of the easiest, humans are such visual creatures and it’s the biggest organ, and we are segregated anyway. The construct of race works better than the elites could have even predicted though.
It’s true not just economics anything that impedes our ability to empathize with one another will create the possibility of this. Though I think for demogogues economic stress it’s the easiest to exploit and misdirect to protect from “levelling”. Also geographic segregation makes it much easier to “otherise” people etc etc regardless. Look at the Brits and the Irish and they are all pale af but Brits wanted the land so they created a construct to legitimize it.
Yes of course even for the wealthy they are going to invent whatever construct they need to justify their own position in their own head. The capital is so concentrated though so there aren’t too many of that kind.
economic anxiety and racism go hand in hand. blame life stresses on the other simple as. classic demagogury.
I think sometimes people are just racist dude. Economic anxiety may exacerbate latent racism, but its not always the cause.
what a lack of dialectical materialism does to a mothafucka.
“Latent racism” as if this shit is an inherent property of humanity and not an instilled ideology, an “original sin”. The christian moralism and idealism reeks from here.
making absolutist moralist denouncements instead of trying to see the chain of events, the cause, and to fix it
when Liberals and Idealists make racism into a “true” platonic eternal evil, all they are doing is admitting they will never fix or solve the issue and don’t know how to. They are even admitting that it’s somewhat correct or at least has a basis in reality because it’s an inherent law of the universe apparently that we can never escape. Racism was invented on a specific date, not too long ago, and it can be abolished. Anything that was created by people can be destroyed by people too.
thank you. “people are just racist” is such idealist nonsense and is itself a take playing into racist ideas. wild to see that shit on here, would think folks would know better by now.
the dangerous thing about moralism is it perpetuates itself. evil is never eradicated, it’s an eternal battle. It’s a resignation that contradictions cannot be resolved and that history is over
I’m not sure, I know a lot of enjoying life racists that love Trump. Country club going never been to a minority neighborhood but quote Tucker Carlson racist, own multiple properties and boats due to underpaying day laborers and call them wetback racist, north shore mansion Long Island Zionist that think the Dems are soft on Palestine racist.
Like economic anxiety my ass, most of the wealthy people I know love Trump and love being racist.
The ideology of every society is the ideology of the ruling class. The rich are the most racist of all. The poor and workers don’t become racist until A) They are under severe economic pressure & B) They have the ideology of the rich drilled into their brain since birth
The ultra wealthy live in comfort because their racism has succeeded. That’s the end goal of the system, and they have a vested interest to reproduce the system for the continued existence of their class.
Z_poster365:
1488_40acrecattlerancher
Don’t get me wrong, i’d happily put a bullet between the eyes of a racist if they stood in the way of the revolution. Think of all the Nazis that hardliner marxists like me have put into the ground. I’m not morally absolving them, I’m explaining the mechanism to break the cycle of their reproduction so we can put one last generation into the ground and then be done with it.
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Age of Napoleon Bonus Episode that examines the intertwined origins of capitalism and racism
https://soundcloud.com/user-279595680/bonus-episode
I mean ive heard all these arguments before saying capitalism is the sole cause of racism, i dont agree with it.
Racism will be here regardless of whether we are in capitalist shithead land or not, i think we have an obligation to speak out against it and organize against it.
I am saying it. Look at italians. Thye were swartly PoC and in our lifetimes they were upgraded to white because we needed more numbers to opress the other minorities with. Before that it was the Irish. Looks like pretty soon Brazilians will be white too. After them probably some Cubans than eventually all Cubans. The japanese were white for a while because we needed people to opress the Chinese with. They lost it when they stoped being a useful tool.
White is not about race. It is a class under cpaitlaism. So long as there is money to be made we will always racialize new and interesting outgroups.
nah it’s race. If you have a rich black in a community full of whites they’ll just kill the rich black on the day SHTF
can’t imagine being this scatterbrained
But which came first. Is he other because he is black? Or is he black because he us other. Compare a melungion person to a light skinned black person. In that situation race has almost nothing to do with race and everything to do with ses.
He’s other because he looks different, which any 3-year-old, or non-human animal, can see
There are plenty of differences we don’t create “race” around. Some of which are even more heritable than a skin color. I think though pi,king thr most obvious one despite it being much less informative or useful is a clear indicator race doesn’t actually matter as such. It only matters in it’s ease of use for capitlaism
you’re disproving your own point here. Irish and Italians entered the US at the same time. Irish racism died out in the early-mid 1900s, Italians faced mild racism as late as the 1990s, and still do if they’re dark enough
“Racism is economic bc we needed to water down the definition of white to ally against even darker hordes” isn’t the winning argument that you think it is
Yeah, the Irish were made cops so that put them up the class structure. Turning men at arms into full citizens was a classic move. There is no fundamental difference between them, they just found themselves in diffrent places in the super structure and were treated diffrent as material circumstances would dictate.
and WHY were the Irish made cops as opposed to the Italians?
Cause they were already partially converted by British colonization. The Irish were papists just like the Italians.
You are proposing the Irish were whiter so they got treated better? That ignores the times in which they were not treated better. I don’t think you can construct a clear line through this data.
Yeah despite being catholic the irish are still northern european, which is what most us anglos mean when they say “white”
No one is saying capitalism is the sole cause of racism, that’s completely ahistorical. But what is historical fact is the capitalism greatly exacerbates existing racisms.
capitalism is the primary cause and engine of racism. Racialism was invented in the 17th century alongside the mercantile transition into capitalism. Capitalism and Racism were born together and will die together, they are twins.
This is class reductionism right here. Racism was around long before the 17th century lmfao.
No it was not, the concept of race was invented around this time. Perhaps you mean prejudice and ethnic sectarianism? That certainly existed. Race did not. Might behoove you to do some reading on this subject before pontificating with false confidence
Lol, now you are just arguing semantics.
The celts were considered a race apart from the anglo saxons.
This only makes sense if you define “racism” exclusively as “white supremacism”. But you’re not saying much at that point. You’re just saying racism as we currently experience it is a product of capitalism. Which, duh, everything is.
Racism existed before capitalism and can exist after. Examples: the Caste System, the Khmer Rouge. Shit even Christopher Columbus was about as racist as you can get and that’s right before capitalism kicks off. The Racialism you’re describing is just the ideological petina that capitalists put on their pre-existing racism.
No I define racism as prejudice based of the system of racialism, which was invented in the 17th century.
Other forms of sectarian prejudice existed beforehand. Not racism
And that’s somehow not White Supremacism?
lol
The anglo saxons had apartheid laws against the celts in 6th century britain.
Sectarian and ethnic strife are nothing new. The concept of “races” is the secret sauce that makes racism racism
I am. Race isn’t real. It is an artificial construction we shape to whatever we please. There is no connectivity tissue to it. If capitlaism didn’t enforce it it would wither and die on the vine.
Yes race is totally artificial, and capitalism has invented an intense apparatus to justify it. But the belief in it and the economic forces that drive that belief will exist as long as there is inequality and scarcity. Communism would eliminate that but there are other systems than communism and capitalism. They just wouldn’t be all pseudo scientific about it like the capitalists would.
You have the causality backwards. Capitalism doesn’t invent things to justify racism, racism is invented to justify Capitalism. Capitalism required slavery, so it required an ideology that made it OK for certain people to become slaves. The racism was post hoc justification for what Capitalism already intended to do.
Europeans didn’t go “look at these black Africans, I hate them so much I might as well enslave them” and then stumble accidentally into capitalism. They realized they required cheap start-up labor for the primitive accumulation of fixed capital and went out looking for it.
I am slightly upset you said it way better than I could.
By “capitalism invented” I meant “capitalists invented”, which is what you stated. Doesn’t really change my point.
so then why did the Indoeuropeans kill every European male 4700 years ago
idt capitalism existed back then
the famous artificial construction of your skin’s albedo
The race realist has entered the chat. Get your calipers out everybody.
Yes, I am white but I am darker than several of my latinX friends. I still get white privilege they do not.
Sure, it’s possible depending on the specific features and contexts which are so detailed that I won’t even go into them. As well as family connections, accents, etc.
But if your Latinx friend is blue eyed and pale, and you’re a very swarthy curly haired dark eyed “white” Sicilian, the friend can benefit from “white-passing privilege” relative to your white ass
Ive seen plenty of people even prominent marxists say this, doug and ben from Zero books for example, repeat this line.
I have never heard of Doug and Ben and don’t know what they’re all on about. Class reductionists are a thing but idk if that’s what they are without reading their words.
Forget about class reductionism, how about any class analysis whatsoever? OP’s “analysis” is pure race reductionism and moralism without a single ounce of Marxist thought instilled.
Apparently using any class analysis whatsoever or referencing factual historical origins of things is “class reductionism” now?
Im not beholden to marx like you are, i just want better outcomes for everyone and saying racism would “disappear with capitalism” is dangerously ignorant of history.
i have no problem saying im just a non sectarian leftist who wants the best for everyone.
I’m disagreeing with their “race reductionism” too if you read my earlier comments.
There was racism against celts and people perceived to be “others” long before the advent of capitalism dude, by all means keep screaming at me obnoxiously about how im a liberal who hasnt read marx (idgaf lol)
im not saying class doesnt play any factor at all, contrary to your weird straw-mans.
if that’s what you got from “intertwined origins” you should really listen to it
anyone who believes this has the equivalent of horse-blinders biologically welded into their brain
this is idealist nonsense and is itself playing into/flirting with lending legitimacy to racist ideas.
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literally not what I said, just pointing out your comment is idealist bs running away from having to actually explain social phenomena.
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lol. sorry but “espousing dialectical materialism is making excuses for individual racists” is such a baby brained take i will not engage with it any further. you genuinely sound like a wrecker. read stalin.
It’s true. America is such a segregated society it is almost inevitable, so long as the construct of race exists. The anxiety causes even good-natured people to do awkward shit sometimes. But the elites will literally use anything they can to divide us up. Skin is one of the easiest, humans are such visual creatures and it’s the biggest organ, and we are segregated anyway. The construct of race works better than the elites could have even predicted though.
It’s true not just economics anything that impedes our ability to empathize with one another will create the possibility of this. Though I think for demogogues economic stress it’s the easiest to exploit and misdirect to protect from “levelling”. Also geographic segregation makes it much easier to “otherise” people etc etc regardless. Look at the Brits and the Irish and they are all pale af but Brits wanted the land so they created a construct to legitimize it.
Yeah! Economic anxiety and racism go hand in hand, except for, like, half the time but every other instance than when it doesn’t
Yes of course even for the wealthy they are going to invent whatever construct they need to justify their own position in their own head. The capital is so concentrated though so there aren’t too many of that kind.