cross-posted from: https://exploding-heads.com/post/159008
My grandmother was born in Berlin in 1938. Her father was essentially forced into the army, because he had skills as a mechanic. He was captured by the Russians, and then tortured for the rest of his life essentially. At the end of the war nazi Gestapo went to her home and tried to force her grandfather and all of her under age brothers into the war on the eastern front against Russia. When her grandfather refused, they put a hand gun to his head and shot him in front of the entire family, and then essentially kidnapped. All the young boys and every last one of them died. The only one who survived managed to get away by hiding in an old clothing case. Once the war was pretty much over and the Russians had control of the city, my grandmother watched as her mother was gang raped by Russian soldiers. She actually had her head shaved by her mother so that the Russians would think she was a little boy so they wouldnāt rape her because they were literally raping women of all ages. If you ask me how I view Hitler and his fanatical followers. I would tell you that I despise them because I remember being a young boy and watching an old lady cry as she told me the stories of her youth and the horrors of war. So when you guys start going around calling Republicans Nazis Iām sorry if I donāt take you seriously and Iām really offended by it. This is another reason why I canāt take people seriously that call Trump and his supporters Nazis. The fact of the matter is once Hitler gained enough power, He armed his supporters to the teeth with military grade weaponry, and began a genocide in his own nation against Jews and other minorities. If Trump really was a Nazi and so he were his supporters then during that four year time span he wouldāve found ways and means to arm his supporters and begin slaughtering liberals like it was going out of style.
You might be surprised to hear this but I actually get you in that respect. Iāve had plenty of issues on Reddit and other lemmy instances with similar things. And it might surprise you even more than I wasnāt using any slurs whatsoever or promoting for violence etc.
But Iāve had plenty of times where merely even dissenting from popular opinion on a site that I see as authoritarian left, results in immediate accusations of bigotry or similar.
For voicing opinions like:
I donāt see myself as a bigot. Iāve had black people I respect a hell of a lot. One of my best friends is Jewish. Iāve had multiple friends that were either L, G,or B over the years. Aside from personal drama from 1 individual, Iāve not had any issues with the others nor do I think the one individual is representative. Iāve had coworkers of just about all walks of life, never had an issue. Never known anyone in the KKK/neo-nazis/other hate groups or had even the slightest interest in seeking them out.
I did technically have a great something or other grandfather that fought for Germany but I think that was WW1 and they gtfo before WW2. Havenāt dated outside my race before but thatās never been a qualifier for me and there have been women outside my race that I was extremely interested in but unfortunately it didnāt work out (ironically one was an Indian lady and she told me that she didnāt date outside her raceā¦ go figure).
Point is I donāt really give a fuck what color skin or sexual orientation individuals are, so if someone is calling me a bigot, odds are pretty damn good itās either a really big misunderstanding or theyāre disagreeing with my political views.
I have different opinions than you sure. But in this case, it wasnāt even about that.
It was more just that it came off as really disrespectful in the context of replying directly to the post that it did and that IMO you were tossing around the term āNaziā pretty casually when other terms would work fine. Many on the left are super duper careful about language semantics and if youāre used to participating in those forums, it strikes me that it could be a very intentional use designed to mock or goad OP.
If that is the case, then you should be able to handle criticism for behaving like a jerk.
If that it was not intentional and your goal really is having /pol discourse with people that think different, then IMO it seems a bit lazy to say things like āNaziā and could also lead to confusion in cases where you arenāt actually talking about 1940s history, geriatric German guys with a shady past, or a particular group of racists that like shaving their heads and literally worshipping the failed ideals of 1940s German Socialist party.
I would make the argument that itās only purpose where you used it was to create shock value or to set up the argument to more easily be dismissive of political opponents based on a very subjective and arbitrarily inserted moral high ground. So again, itās just lazy and is actually completely counterproductive to having a conversation. Itās not much better than if I go into a trans forum, with my current s/n (which was born out of political frustration rather than hate in case you were curious) and started saying names and terms that I know they dislike, misgendering, etc while asking for civil discussion (e.g. if I wasnāt trolling, I ought to know that it will not support the objective)
Hell, just start by saying that. If you are a liberal that is open to actually talking with conservatives without dropping āracistā / ābigotā / etc at the first sign that they donāt agree with you, I think youāll find more people than you might think who are open to that convo. Yeah, some people will be lazy jerks and inevitability yell / mock / dismiss out of frustration. You have plenty of guys like that on your own side of the fence too. But I would be genuinely surprised if you were being civil and nobody wanted to chat with you in turn.
No argument here. Well, I would maybe note a couple thingsā¦
First, that there seem to be a LOT more left wing safe spaces after so many places have forcibly ejected large segments of right wing users as ostensibly being racists and that your same arguments apply equally to those places.
I think most of the difference is that neither side enjoys being called names and both sides consider it namecalling as disrespectful but many of the leftist sites get way more offended by names than we tend to and seem to practice authoritarianism by also blocking us.
And second, because of the first point, there are a lot less places for right wingers. As such, it seems fair to actually get their buy-in and participate in the right places. Not accusing you personally but Iāve see other users who were very obviously leftists complain to people just trying to relax in their small corner of the web or complaining about language/ideas in meme subs that specifically allow that sort of thing (some on EH, some elsewhere). If you want serious discussion, willing participants in a forum/sub intended for discussions rather than memes, seems appropriate to me.
Iāve seen you lean on the āthis is just a place for memes, broā crutch a couple of times now. Casual racism or bigotry is still racism and bigotry, FYI. Also, I didnāt really pay close attention to everything that got posted here, I did see a bunch of memes or whatever, but this thread and the other couple that I posted in werenāt meme related in the slightest, which is why I chose to respond to them. You canāt operate under the pretense of an open discussion and then shout āItās just memes, stop trying to have a real discussionā every time someone takes you up on it.
As far as you saying youāre not a bigot, well when you selected your username, you chose to show the world otherwise. That might be a joke to you or something thatās just funny, but going back to the first thing I said, casual bigotry is still very much so bigotry. Iāll admit, liking cheese is hardly one of the top 100 things thatās important to me, so maybe your hatred of trans people and your decision to use a slur to refer to them isnāt representative of who you are as a person, but I do find it hilarious that someone who had the entirety of all the usernames in the world available to them but chose one that literally is able hating a specific group of people and using a slur to do so has the gall to say theyāre not a bigot with a straight face.
As far as my liberal use of the word Nazi, I did jump right into the middle of that conversation and that might have been a shock that I wasnāt quite intending. But I was directly responding to the part of OPās post where he said he was offended that people associated Nazis with Republicans. As I said, I know from personal experience that thereās not a 1 to 1 correlation there, but I still canāt figure out why anyone who wasnāt a Nazi sympathizer would allow that sort of presence in their party. If you are driving somewhere and you see people on the side of the road with Swastika flags and Nazi uniforms broke down and you give them a ride to wherever it is youāre going, you helped them. You might not agree with them, you might actively dislike it. But you helped them accomplish their goal. And when literal actual Nazis are protesting with signs for GOP candidates and said candidate doesnāt actually speak out against them (https://www.news-press.com/story/news/local/2023/06/12/nazi-flags-at-disney-how-has-ron-desantis-addressed-antisemitism/70312857007/) then thatās condoning their behavior by default. If youāre standing next to a literal Nazi in the voting booth and youāre both making the same decisions, you both have the same goals, and you donāt re-evaluate literally everything you believe in, well then hopefully you can see why itās difficult for someone who doesnāt agree with either one of you has a very hard time telling the difference.
Like I said, what happened to OPās grandmother was awful, but I donāt see how voting for people who appear to be aligned with the same people who did it in any way shape or form honors the people who were put through those atrocities. If you think that me pointing that out makes me a jerk, so be it. That wasnāt really my intention, but then again I was responding to someone who, in another post, has already admitted that he enjoys getting downvotes and considers them to be a success. I believe I saw a similar comment of yours as well. By your own logic, if Iāve managed to piss you off then I believe Iāve won? Is that how it works? Again, not really my intention, but I really am curious how someone can get their mind as twisted as you two are and actually try to use logic to explain their way out of it. Youāre all so quick to dismiss someone who disagrees as nothing more than a troll or a member of the hivemind, but when push comes to shove and you have to explain why you think the way you think about the things you say, thereās quite often very little actual argument. For a group of people that talks about the left and their feelings I just see a lot of confusion, hate, and naĆÆvety as the main driving force for most of the talking points for the right.
Lot here and Iām getting tired so sorry if I skip some stuff / have more typos than usual.
Point was more that if the sub is about posting memes, Iām not there to have long political discussions. A little short back and forth is one thing, but purely if Iām posting memes Iām not there for long form chats andbis more what I meant. I donāt always have time for long form which IMO is what the best discussion is but popping on to post a quick shit post while youāre dropping a deuce at work usually doesnāt take too long.
As far as this and the crutch part from earlier, I really do just consider it joking around. You want to call me a racist for that, I donāt really care. I have had black friends that call me cracker. Thatās racist too. My Jewish friend has called me goy before. Same shit.
There was a Broadway play awhile back with a song something like everybody is a little racist sometimes or something to that effect. I believe similarly to that or maybe that it is a spectrum not unlike autism. To my way of thinking, thereās a big difference between someone that gets fed up with politics and memes things up / acts like a twat in one specific place as an outlet but is otherwise a decent person and someone that is calling for mass eradication of a group of people. Maybe you see someone with high functioning autism (formerly Aspergerās) and low functioning as the same thing just because theyāre both called āautismā? I dunno but for me thereās a difference.
And I think the fact that everything is confined to a specific sub is also a point worth considering. I do post on other subs but like for instance on EHās funmemes the rules are a lot different and I donāt do that stuff outside of the designated areas for it.
Ok, if I came off as trying to crucify you over it, wasnāt my intent. Meant it more in terms of time management and compartmentalizing different stuff in different areas. TBF, I get that lemmyās ui does not always make this an easy task and that I probably come across as a lot more of an asshole when Iām in a rush and firing things off more rapidly. When I have the time, I have tried to help folks out that donāt like that kind of content.
Iām not offended at all if people want to block me. Honestly, I really wish Lemmy had some kind of tagging system and the ability to filter in/out posts based on tags (at community and post levels, possibly for comments and users too tho). I think that would be a much better solution than wholesale defedding / user-blocking of entire sub or everything another user posts. Or at least a real cool and novel alternative for those that want to take advantage of it.
But at the end of the day, I came there specially to vent and relax and Iām not breaking any rules. So if someone isnāt trying to actually engage in discussion and just wants to give a hard time about it, then I either ignore them or if they are persistent then probably will block them and move on.
Honestly, when I selected it what was going thru my head was I was frustrated with trans activists (not necessarily all trans people) and thinking
I think Iām allowed to change my name on here and now that I know the instance is truly free speech, I might even consider looking into it at some point. I havenāt ruled it out or committed to it yet but weāll see.
As far as āshowing the worldā, in terms of what āworldā is encompassed in the corner of the fediverse that hasnāt defedded us, Iām fine with that perception/misconception/deception if the trade off is that it encourages more radical elements to leave me be. Iām not opposed to calm discussion here and there but I donāt come here to defend my viewpoints that Iām ānot allowedā to have on mainstream sites. TBH, if people on mainstream sites werenāt so easily offended like things used to be 10/15/20 years ago, I doubt I would feel the desire in the first place.
Minor distinction but I donāt actually hate trans people - only the pushy activists types. What most people would call sjwās. Many of whom are not even trans themselves.
Hell, if you asked me what a ātroonā was even 10 minutes before I registered, my dumbass probably would have confused it with a āmacaroonā and started getting hungry. While trying to find something for point #2 above, I saw a post mentioning it meant trans activists or goons or something, but tbh I donāt even really know for sure how its used.
Ok, maybe bc the word is so reductive that it doesnāt account for someone being annoyed by a group of people or for where on the spectrum of bigotry one falls or what they are bigots about. I dunno.
But like I said earlier, I see a huge difference between someone that is literally a member of KKK and wants to literally kill people, someone that casual says slurs to their buddies, and someone who is neither of those things but disagrees with using political power to artificially put one group on a pedestal or is willing to tolerate but not cater to demands.
If people want to call me a bigot for the stuff Iām posting in dankmemes, I donāt really care. It will fall on deaf ears and if someone wastes my time too much, Iāll probably block them.
Outside of that, if Iām on some other instance with some other name and just expressing a different political opinion, I think itās kind of a dick move calling someone a ābigotā over nothing but having a different point of view.
I dunno about the official party/ GOP. But most of the guys I personally know that vote Republican arenāt officially affiliated with the party and mostly just donāt want stuff the other side is pushing but they identify as Republican. I know a couple guys that vote entirely along the 2A lines and donāt seem to really give a damn about anything else but call themselves Republicans. Havenāt known any of them to express any race hate whatsoever. Lgbt support varies a bit thoā¦ Especially the T part. But most of them are pretty indifferent to LGB.
You could day they are bigots I guess. I donāt think it fits. Racist definitely doesnāt. Transmisic / transphob maybe. But that kinda implies disliking the people. Most art like ne and just donāt like how the political side is getting thrown at them wihy no discussion, no input from the other side, just ādo as we sayā mentionality.
Same reason democrats allow communists to vote for them. You get the same vote as everyone else regardless of how utterly stupid you are, and given the nature of the two-party, first-past-the-post system, the overwhelming majority of people, even at the extremes, will end up voting for one of the two major parties, even if they barely actually align ideologically.
I agree the 2 party system is a joke and only serves to give the illusion of choice in all but the most superficial of cases. But your implication that communism is on the same level of outright evil as Nazism is so far fetched, Iām not even sure what point youāre trying to make.
Also, if there truly was a large group effort to establish actual communism (and not just ramping up programs like socialized healthcare and improved infrastructure) and make it mainstream within this country, I would have no problems combatting those efforts in any way I saw fit, as I believe the large majority of people that vote democrat would. I was going to ask if you could say the same thing regarding Nazis with the GOP, but thatās not even a hypothetical question I have to ask you, as there are plenty of examples of that simply not happening.
True. I failed to Emphasize how much worse communism is
If the OP still wants to get offended when people think that Republicans are the same thing as Nazis, hereās your reasoning why. Taking material items away from people is far more evil to you people than genocide (of minorities though, so itās all good)
Sorry I even tried to have a civil conversation with you. At least you showed your true colors before I wasted too much of my time.
Lol just immediately jump to your retarded strawmen. Typical leftist troll
Nah, this entire thread discussion is me actively trying to not be a troll. I could break out the insults or tell you how stupid you are or what a piece of shit you are, but at the end of the day, you just openly admitted to being at the very least a Nazi sympathizer. Thereās no intelligent civil discussion to be had following that. Period.
āYou cannot reason people out of positions they didnāt reason themselves into.ā
Youāre not doing a very good job