Are we there yet?
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We are not ready neither on the user-side but also on the mod-side. Lemmy and kbin needs time to mature. This jump of popularity is good for lemmy as a platform but this will be rough.
As an admin of my own instance… We have a while…
It’s sad cause I want to spread the word but I can see everyone who isn’t tech savvy becoming immediately frustrated. It’s soo close to being great though
Yeah, there is a massive movement right now. It’ll get there. I have tech friends that don’t quite get it. It’s so simple for me. I’m struggling to find an easy way to explain in.
Once I saw someone point out that it’s the same as email “[email protected]” can email “[email protected]” without having a gmail account it clicked. Also there can be a “bob@outlook” and a “bob@gmail” and they aren’t necessarily the same. It’s a hidden understanding people don’t know they already have. But the main thing preventing me from advocating other users is that the UX isn’t quite there. When it works its excellent but there are unquestionably a few rough edges. But it’ll get there :)
I tried that… didn’t work.
This was my latest attempt
There are instances with communities (Reddits with subreddits). If one or more instances links up, they can share those communities. This is done by the instance federating and copying down the data from the other instance and then working with that instance to stay in sync. Examples: A->All the instances run this. But one is the data master; they all report back when a change is made in their instance. C->Only red is interacting with this community D->Only Red & Yellow interact with this community.
I admit the graph needs more work, but it’s a wip… just like lemmy :)
You’re making it complicated. For us oldies who lived on IRC back in the day it all seems pretty simple.
Bunch of different servers connected together where everyone can talk to each other no matter which server they’re connected to. In Lemmy’s case, the channels are hosted on various servers, but anyone on the network can talk in those channels regardless of where they’re physically located. With IRC you’d just connect to the server that was the fastest based on your location. With Lemmy/kbin, you connect to the one that is the most stable for you, or you like the name, or UI, or whatever (I prefer kbin). But once you’re on one there is no functional difference to the content because they’re all on the same network (ActivityPub).
You don’t need to explain the details of Federation to get people to understand what it is and how it works. Where any specific community is physically hosted has no real meaning when anyone can access it from any instance. Just like IRC, being in the US and speaking with someone in Australia, we’re obviously on different servers but that has no meaning when the content (chat) is the same through both.
For us oldies who lived on IRC back in the day
what do you mean “lived” 😁 …but I share your view…keep it simple (it’s really not that complicated)… the UI/UX needs polish and there’s functionality lacking but hey, its early days so peeps have to be a little patient
That wouldn’t work for my friends. You assume I’m talking to smart people :)
IRC is still very much thriving! Just like HAM.
haven’t left, see no need to… and it’s still the place where all the techies hang who are passionate about any project (from Operating Systems to coding languages) … works perfectly using any terminal emulator of ones choice and an abundance of scripts to choose from if one so chooses
I just tell people that each instance is like a country and users are able to move and interact with each other. Some countries revoke passport rights to/from other countries.
That’s genius; I love it! I’m going to start using that one. Thanks!
Ahhh, this explains why I can’t get to some subs/communities more easily. I had to create an alt to get to them :P
Maybe some graphic design oriented person can make a slick explainer video lol… but somehow I don’t see grandma signing up anytime soon
That’s what ruined it before… it got to corporate and clean. I like it messy.
I’m a normie and I get it. Surely there are more than just the tech people capable of understanding how the system works. It can be a bit confusing at first, but all that is needed is a really good guide explaining how to use the fediverse.
Not as long as ‘we’ use words like ‘normies’, whatever that may mean.
In UI/UX design they’re the opposite of power users, technologically illiterate, bandwagoners, PC culture, the 90% of a social media site’s users, average joes, your grandma on the internet. They’re used to the conventions of other sites and have little appetite for complexity in their search for content.
None of this is meant with any bad connotations. They’re a user class with a distinct set of needs. Beehaw blocks them due to the registration hassle. Kbin is maybe 75% of the way there. Much of the fediverse is decidedly anti-normie. Marxist-Leninists and edgy teenagers abound.
Note that the reason normies have a bad connotation is because their influx leads to a certain homogeneity and a stripping of established cultures. The term is used as a slur to counteract this effect. Those with anti-popular tastes will centralize elsewhere usually.
I feel like we need to stop trying to overexplain the fediverse. The decentralization stuff isn’t the selling point y’all think it is. It’s confusing and complicated and entirely unnecessary. kbin.social has a landing page with actual content on it, signing up is exactly the way one signs up for anything else, the UI is reminiscent of old reddit, and nobody needs to know how it’s connecting to the rest of the fediverse on the back end to comment on a picture of a funny cat.
The sales pitch shouldn’t be some neckbeardy ultra-nerd shit where we gush over decentralization and instances and blah blah blah. The sales pitch should be “It’s still a little rough around the edges, but it does basically the same thing. It aggregates content from other places on the web. And, for all you’re going to need it for, it works basically the same way as reddit. Read the front page, if you see a community you like, subscribe to it. Just, if you want to post a thread on kbin, that’s under ‘post article’ for some reason.”
90% of the people who are on reddit bitching about how “complicated” this is are only saying that because it’s being explained in literally the most obtuse way possible. I was one of them. And Lemmy’s absolutely not helping by filling their landing page with a bunch of technical bullshit normies don’t need to understand, instead of, you know, showing them content.
Yes, it’s cool. Yes, it’s modern and novel and a new way to connect to people on the web. Not a damn bit of that matters. Stop pushing that like anyone other than techbros give a fuck.
“Kbin is like Reddit, except it’s not privately owned. Individuals run their own servers and people can communicate and follow each other across the whole network. You just pick a server and sign up with that one. Here’s a couple servers that I like…”
That sounds concise and non techy, I think. But I’m sure someone could come up with an even simpler, more inviting elevator pitch.
I’d probably just choose a server and send it to them. Then, I’d explain it like this:
Kbin is like Reddit, but
(assholes|fuccbois|corporate interests)can’t control it like they can control Reddit. It’s a bit rough around the edges, but it’s getting better every day. You can try it out by going to this link and signing up: <insert link>
If you want to know more about why it can’t be controlled and ruined, look up the “fediverse.” None of that matters if you just want to have a Reddit alternative though, you’ll figure it out as you go along.
Kbin isn’t ready either. The simple fact is that most people these days use social media (almost) exclusively through apps their phones. Yes, you can install it as a PWA through your browser, but that’s a possibility most non-techy people aren’t even aware of, nor is it really explained anywhere. Not having apps in official app stores is a major hurdle to adoption.
Yes, on the Lemmy side of things Jerboa is on the Play Store but it doesn’t allow you to actually create accounts on Lemmy instances, and even if it did you’d be back at the “you must chose an instance” hurdle.
The simple fact is that most people these days use social media (almost) exclusively through apps their phones. Yes, you can install it as a PWA through your browser, but that’s a possibility most non-techy people aren’t even aware of, nor is it really explained anywhere. Not having apps in official app stores is a major hurdle to adoption.
So we are at the stage where people are unable to operate a simple mobile website, and everything has to be turned into its own special app?
I don’t know, for me kbin doesn’t have to get as big as reddit to be a cool place to hang out. Not sure if I’m interested in an influx of people who only post selfies and shitty tiktok videos and don’t bother reading the community rules because they’re on mobile and seeing the sidebar requires tapping on a button but they don’t know how to do that or something.
Maybe I’m just bitter from reading all the comments on reddit and seeing how people don’t even bother understanding what happened with the API etc. and just keep screaming “give content now”.
This whole project has been popular for like a month? I know Lemmy servers were going longer but kbin is about that old.
Frankly I think the progress is insane, give it 6 months and I think you’ll have multiple native apps to pick from. Probably some of them would be on their own instances.To be fair- when I opened kbin in Chrome, Android, I was asked if I’d like to install the “Kbin.social app”. I was surprised how simple it was. Firefox offers nothing.
Honestly, I consider myself mostly a normy, at least when it comes to technology, and I am having a blast on Kbin!
Some things I think are needed first:
- greatly improved UX for handling links to content hosted on other instances: you shouldn’t have to use the inconspicuous search function to access it via your instance,
- community collections: aggregating communities by topic each with a clear overview, their own feed and a nice, convenient way to create and view crossposts between them,
- more polished and stable app(s),
- ease of migrating between instances (massive bonus if we can have portable identities),
- a change in how we present the core idea behind the federation model: it’s not about aggregation (this misconception leads to frustration over “fragmentation”), it’s about community self-governance/autonomy and error-correction (as in making it easier for communities to migrate if authority is abused).
I agree on all accounts. I currently have to force myself to use lemmy, through the unfinished apps and the slightly frustrating UX. If it wasn’t for my belief in the core idea of the platform, I’d be back on reddit by now. If someone doesn’t strongly care about decentralization or whatever, then I don’t see why they’d stay here as it currently is.
No, we are not there yet. I believe it only makes sense once there are a bunch of mobile apps available.
Jerboa needs some work, but it will get there. I wish we had paid versions of the app, I’d like development to got a bit faster as the deadline for 3rd party apps on reddit is coming up dreadfully fast.
Yeah, true. People doing this in their free time pour a lot of love into the apps, which is good, but money buys time and that’s what would be needed. That’s why I believe the apps wine be ready on time.
Supposedly mlem (iOS) is coming out ~July 1.
You can join the beta now. They just released a huge update. It’s not done but it’s useable. https://discuss.online/post/17361
I am using the Mlem beta and while it is getting better with every update, it’s still far away from being usable by „the normies“ (i.e. every non-early-adopter). Plus, we need more than one good app, because taste is different. Lemmy moderation tools seem to be no so mature as well. it just seems like Lemmy would need a few more years, in my opinion.
Not sure what “normie” and “ready” mean, but I sure do hope there will be neat places to share and discuss ideas.
I don‘t think it‘s ready.
It would need some super easy to get into apps (afaic some exist but now still in development) with an option to show subs from different instances that relate.
For example, I‘m into piracy so I now have three instances c/piracy I visit to check, as it grows this issue could grow worse too with the piracy community being found over dozens of instances. That just isn‘t appealing to normies at all, I mean it isn‘t to me either and I‘m into tech. A normie wants to install the app, enter piracy and then see all the piracy related content in one place with seemingly no barriers.
Once that becomes a thing, I think that is when the growth would go exponential. Each time a CEO presses more money out of his social media products, more people would join.
well… i’m here and i have a 401k i check twice a week and a honda civic, so now?
this made me lol pretty good, welcome
I think it’s okay if it doesn’t happen overnight. As long as the instances of the Verse get more developed and users remain engaged, more will come. Reddit will decay into Facebook lite and other forums will thrive.
Not tell we can post affectingly to other instances with ease. quite a few still hang on posting for me at least.
That precise issue inspired me to make this post; it was actually a test post from mander to beehaw to verify it actually worked :D I do think its mostly an issue of performance, and poor exception handling / propagating errors to the user. Some clear error messages about what went wrong goes a long way to ease something not working even if you haven’t fixed the underlying issue.
Before the fediverse becomes normalized for non-technical people, the tech jargon will have to be changed. Anytime a non-technical person hears server, instance, node, etc they glaze over in the eyes. These should be called something like communities or groups or clubs or something to tell people they are joining a group of like minded individuals.
After that, I do like the way kbin has used the magazine concept of magazine, article, post, microblog to describe the methods of communication within the “community”. Even though admittingly, it took me minute to grasp the jargon change.
The selling point is federation, but that name has to go, too. Sounds to techie or bureaucratic. I don’t know Connecting or something. Users need to understand that from their community, they can connect to (and interact with) other communities or members without having to join a whole new site. In that same sense, they can also block any community or member they do not wish to interact with.
Another selling point would be that if a community changes and you do not like it, you can just join a new one. However, this is not really a selling point yet because you cannot just mover your “profile” to another community. You have to rejoin and start from scratch.
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