The driving force of climate change is the same reason for the military industrial complexe. Profits over people will always lead to these outcomes. You gotta be able to acknowledge and discuss this stuff.
It didn’t seem like she was opposing the military industrial complex in general so much as she was opposing Israel specifically, showing solidarity with those in opposition to them, and implying they are oppressors opposed to freedom and justice.
Hamas are terrorists but the Israeli government’s hands are far from clean. You cant kill 10,000 palestinians in a matter of weeks, half of which are children, and maintain the moral high ground. And that is ignoring how modern Israel came about through the displacement of millions.
Who has the moral high ground in this conflict is a matter of opinion, you might be surprised what you would support if you and your loved ones were under constant threat of violence with no end in sight. Hamas has leveraged public distaste for civilian casualties quite effectively, maximizing it by hiding among them, and leaving Israel without other viable strategies to depose them.
I find myself far more sympathetic to Israel’s cause because they weren’t the ones that provoked this, their opponents clearly have less concern for civilian lives than they do but simply lack the means, Palestinian factions openly advocate for genocide of Jews, and have remained belligerent and unwilling to sue for viable peace for the last 70 years despite having lost every war they’ve waged on Israel. Israel has historically shown a great deal of restraint dealing with them for a very long time, but each wanton massacre moves them closer to seeking safety at any cost, even if that cost is many civilian lives.
It’s easy to feel sympathy for the underdog, but in this case, the underdog is explicitly genocidal, expects to be treated differently than they treat their opponents, which they constantly provoke with guerrilla attacks, while remaining unwilling to compromise for peace. I’m at a loss as to what other options are available to Israel that provides them meaningful safety without sacrificing their own people or national sovereignty.
Because giving up has worked so well for Palestinians before.
I don’t support Hamas’ actions, but I too understand them. The Palestinians have been abused for generations with no good way out in sight for them. They don’t have the power to make any real decisions or changes to the status quo here. It’s up to the side with power to figure out some way to make this work out better.
I also understand them, but to get into that headspace I must ignore many realities of their realpolitik situation and get into a mindset of anger, revenge and cold-blooded score settling over perceived injustices, remaining incensed over what one believes was taken from them and continues to be taken from them.
While I understand it, it only leads to counter-productive places that ultimately work against their interests. It ignores the complicated causes, historical ambiguities, and unpleasant facts regarding this conflict in favor of a one-sided interpretation. It is a narrative of victimhood and defiance that forgets how often they were the bully and instigator before they were the underdogs. The harsh reality is that at some level might does in fact make right, at least when it comes to international geopolitics. Ignoring this brought Palestine to here. They are an MMA fighter who started a fight, was put into an inescapable submission hold, refuses to tap out, and there is no ref who has authority to end the fight. And still, they keep headbutting the fighter that could break their arm at any moment.
There is a way out: Tap out, because no matter how righteous one’s cause is, it doesn’t change the fundamentals of the situation. How many lives is pride, perceived righteousness over a lost cause, worth? They could return the hostages, pacify, sue for peace, and get back freedoms and rights and safety at the cost of lands they were never getting back anyway.
It seems like the side with power has tried everything they can reasonably do to achieve peace in a way that retains their national autonomy and keeps their people safe as possible. So far, nothing has worked.
Israel exists because millions were displaced from their homes to create it. Settlers continually encroach further. And everyone that lived there is supposed to roll over and let it happen with no resistance whatsoever. Then there’s the current situation which is to put it lightly, a humanitarian disaster. Over a million gazans were essentially told to flee to the south or risk being bombed. And dont get me started on how journalists are being treated. Do not give me this poor innocent Israel horseshit.
The Nakba land was annexed because they declared war on Israel and lost. It’s almost like there’s consequences for trying to murder your neighbors. They might not want you as neighbors anymore.
As usual the people against israel try to hold them to a different standard. I mean when has any nation that declared war and got their ass kicked lost any territories as a consequence? /s.
For them, the natural consequences that have applied through history in other conflicts are somehow unjustified when they benefit israel.
It’s seriously hard to take anything pro-Israel seriously knowing that they have a state-sponsored crowdsourced propaganda project where people undertake missions to spread pro-Israel propaganda, and smear Palestine.
Like for all we know your comment could’ve come straight from ACT-IL
Yes indeed. Both sides are heavily propagandizing social media so it’s good to be skeptical and insist on credible sources. Here’s an article about a pro-Palestine disinformation campaign on twitter trying to get Americans to stay out of the conflict, for example. I wouldn’t assume everyone who disagrees with you is a paid shill, nor would I assume that those who agree with you aren’t; I find it’s better to stick to the issues at hand than try to divine the motivations of random internet strangers.
Also, I suspect things are probably better here in that regard than on other platforms, as the feddiverse is still flying under the radar for those seeking to shape public opinion.
I never said anything about paid shill. Here’s a video where someone walks through the app. I don’t think people get paid, but they do earn badges and points and whatnot for spreading propaganda and mass-reporting content that’s posted to the app.
Thing is, I don’t have a horse in this race. Looking on from the outside what’s happening is disgusting, be it using hospitals as shields, thereby endangering people there, or turning off access to water to over two million people. There’s no right side here.
There’s also fuck all I can do about it so I generally just keep out of things. It’s not my mess to deal with.
That’s fascinating, they crowdsourced and gamified propaganda by weaponizing corporate sensitivity to offensiveness. Thanks for sharing that link, although the host definitely is promoting his own biases while showcasing the app, it was very informative and worth watching. Reading a little more into this, it appears Hamas has adapted to this technique by relying on Telegram to spread their messaging since the other platforms have removed them for extremist content.
This makes me appreciate another advantage of the feddiverse, the mass reporting techniques that this approach relies on to silence dissent might work on profit-driven social media companies, but here mods can use their own discretion rather than prioritizing financial and PR motivations for what gets removed like the for-profit companies have to.
Israel puts itself in this position by preventing Gazans from having weapons. They want to hold Gazans responsible for Hamas, but they continually and actively prevent the Gazans’ ability to actually take responsibility for their “government”.
Because it’s not actual business taking place. Profit is when you produce more value than you consumed, as evidenced by people being willing to pay your price for the goods or services you’re offering.
Government doesn’t willingly buy things in the same way as a consumer or other private entity. It is compelled to by law, and instead of computing actual value in its purchases it seeks minimum cost for a set level of service.
Besides that i’d really like to know how much these sneseless wars contribute towards further polution. All the jets burning, ground vehicles moving, possibility of nukes
Depends on how many lives are cut short and never become. If one woman were to have had 6 kids who then made another 12 grandchildren, their footprint would be much higher than if a woman never was going to have kids.
Overall it is a dark topic. But ~7 lives to a fighter jet tank of gas if I saw correctly. (28 metric tons per tank) average footprint worldwide is about 4 per person.
The moral of the story I suppose is to send everyone to war on foot, nude, and only hand to hand combat is permitted. Don’t want to figure out the footprint of a sword or hammer. Easier just to say pick up a rock.
Imagine thinking the Middle East, a “tiny region” which also just so happens to be where more than half of all oil used on Earth comes from, is irrelevant to the discussion of climate change.
You probably wouldn’t be so angry if you weren’t having to bend over backwards to make nonsensical arguments like this to defend your nonsensical opinions.
Muddling up these two issues is so very stupid … just keep the climate message on climate, how fucking hard is that?
The driving force of climate change is the same reason for the military industrial complexe. Profits over people will always lead to these outcomes. You gotta be able to acknowledge and discuss this stuff.
It didn’t seem like she was opposing the military industrial complex in general so much as she was opposing Israel specifically, showing solidarity with those in opposition to them, and implying they are oppressors opposed to freedom and justice.
Shes not wrong.
Hamas are terrorists but the Israeli government’s hands are far from clean. You cant kill 10,000 palestinians in a matter of weeks, half of which are children, and maintain the moral high ground. And that is ignoring how modern Israel came about through the displacement of millions.
Who has the moral high ground in this conflict is a matter of opinion, you might be surprised what you would support if you and your loved ones were under constant threat of violence with no end in sight. Hamas has leveraged public distaste for civilian casualties quite effectively, maximizing it by hiding among them, and leaving Israel without other viable strategies to depose them.
I find myself far more sympathetic to Israel’s cause because they weren’t the ones that provoked this, their opponents clearly have less concern for civilian lives than they do but simply lack the means, Palestinian factions openly advocate for genocide of Jews, and have remained belligerent and unwilling to sue for viable peace for the last 70 years despite having lost every war they’ve waged on Israel. Israel has historically shown a great deal of restraint dealing with them for a very long time, but each wanton massacre moves them closer to seeking safety at any cost, even if that cost is many civilian lives.
It’s easy to feel sympathy for the underdog, but in this case, the underdog is explicitly genocidal, expects to be treated differently than they treat their opponents, which they constantly provoke with guerrilla attacks, while remaining unwilling to compromise for peace. I’m at a loss as to what other options are available to Israel that provides them meaningful safety without sacrificing their own people or national sovereignty.
Congratulations, you understand Hamas.
Hamas could end this conflict tomorrow if willing to return their hostages, make concessions and sue for a viable peace.
Because giving up has worked so well for Palestinians before.
I don’t support Hamas’ actions, but I too understand them. The Palestinians have been abused for generations with no good way out in sight for them. They don’t have the power to make any real decisions or changes to the status quo here. It’s up to the side with power to figure out some way to make this work out better.
I also understand them, but to get into that headspace I must ignore many realities of their realpolitik situation and get into a mindset of anger, revenge and cold-blooded score settling over perceived injustices, remaining incensed over what one believes was taken from them and continues to be taken from them.
While I understand it, it only leads to counter-productive places that ultimately work against their interests. It ignores the complicated causes, historical ambiguities, and unpleasant facts regarding this conflict in favor of a one-sided interpretation. It is a narrative of victimhood and defiance that forgets how often they were the bully and instigator before they were the underdogs. The harsh reality is that at some level might does in fact make right, at least when it comes to international geopolitics. Ignoring this brought Palestine to here. They are an MMA fighter who started a fight, was put into an inescapable submission hold, refuses to tap out, and there is no ref who has authority to end the fight. And still, they keep headbutting the fighter that could break their arm at any moment.
There is a way out: Tap out, because no matter how righteous one’s cause is, it doesn’t change the fundamentals of the situation. How many lives is pride, perceived righteousness over a lost cause, worth? They could return the hostages, pacify, sue for peace, and get back freedoms and rights and safety at the cost of lands they were never getting back anyway.
It seems like the side with power has tried everything they can reasonably do to achieve peace in a way that retains their national autonomy and keeps their people safe as possible. So far, nothing has worked.
They are, and the IDF decided to bomb hospitals instead.
I’m no Hamas fan, but you’re really doing some mental gymnastics if you think that’s an appropriate response.
That’s certainly a Pro-Hamas biased way of interpreting recent events.
Hamas has been hiding in hospitals and firing at IDF forces from within them, and at least one of these bombings was caused by Hamas allies.
Will the Settlement expansion stop and roll back? No?
If they had left kids alone - even crying over their parents mutilated bodies - I would have supported their action fully.
The conflict hasn’t started on October 7th. The conflict started way before Hamas even existed.
Israel exists because millions were displaced from their homes to create it. Settlers continually encroach further. And everyone that lived there is supposed to roll over and let it happen with no resistance whatsoever. Then there’s the current situation which is to put it lightly, a humanitarian disaster. Over a million gazans were essentially told to flee to the south or risk being bombed. And dont get me started on how journalists are being treated. Do not give me this poor innocent Israel horseshit.
The Nakba land was annexed because they declared war on Israel and lost. It’s almost like there’s consequences for trying to murder your neighbors. They might not want you as neighbors anymore.
You are a ghoul if you think displacing a few million people from their homes in revenge is justified.
As usual the people against israel try to hold them to a different standard. I mean when has any nation that declared war and got their ass kicked lost any territories as a consequence? /s.
For them, the natural consequences that have applied through history in other conflicts are somehow unjustified when they benefit israel.
What if it’s for safety and not revenge?
It’s seriously hard to take anything pro-Israel seriously knowing that they have a state-sponsored crowdsourced propaganda project where people undertake missions to spread pro-Israel propaganda, and smear Palestine.
Like for all we know your comment could’ve come straight from ACT-IL
Yes indeed. Both sides are heavily propagandizing social media so it’s good to be skeptical and insist on credible sources. Here’s an article about a pro-Palestine disinformation campaign on twitter trying to get Americans to stay out of the conflict, for example. I wouldn’t assume everyone who disagrees with you is a paid shill, nor would I assume that those who agree with you aren’t; I find it’s better to stick to the issues at hand than try to divine the motivations of random internet strangers.
Also, I suspect things are probably better here in that regard than on other platforms, as the feddiverse is still flying under the radar for those seeking to shape public opinion.
I never said anything about paid shill. Here’s a video where someone walks through the app. I don’t think people get paid, but they do earn badges and points and whatnot for spreading propaganda and mass-reporting content that’s posted to the app.
Thing is, I don’t have a horse in this race. Looking on from the outside what’s happening is disgusting, be it using hospitals as shields, thereby endangering people there, or turning off access to water to over two million people. There’s no right side here.
There’s also fuck all I can do about it so I generally just keep out of things. It’s not my mess to deal with.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
Here’s a video where someone walks through the app.
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
That’s fascinating, they crowdsourced and gamified propaganda by weaponizing corporate sensitivity to offensiveness. Thanks for sharing that link, although the host definitely is promoting his own biases while showcasing the app, it was very informative and worth watching. Reading a little more into this, it appears Hamas has adapted to this technique by relying on Telegram to spread their messaging since the other platforms have removed them for extremist content.
This makes me appreciate another advantage of the feddiverse, the mass reporting techniques that this approach relies on to silence dissent might work on profit-driven social media companies, but here mods can use their own discretion rather than prioritizing financial and PR motivations for what gets removed like the for-profit companies have to.
Israel puts itself in this position by preventing Gazans from having weapons. They want to hold Gazans responsible for Hamas, but they continually and actively prevent the Gazans’ ability to actually take responsibility for their “government”.
Money from government contracts is more like a grant than profit.
Oh okay so every government contractor is a non-profit?
Because?
Because it’s not actual business taking place. Profit is when you produce more value than you consumed, as evidenced by people being willing to pay your price for the goods or services you’re offering.
Government doesn’t willingly buy things in the same way as a consumer or other private entity. It is compelled to by law, and instead of computing actual value in its purchases it seeks minimum cost for a set level of service.
That isn’t an explanation on how companies who provide products and services to the government aren’t for profit.
I’ve worked for companies that had government contracts. They are for profit and it isn’t grants.
I don’t know it works in your mind but in the real world you can actually make good money (and profit) with gov. contracts.
It’s wild people are so ignorant to how our economic system works and how our government is entwined in it. Then again,
looks around
no, shit, that actually explains alot.
If the only way to advocate for climate action is to also try and turn people into pacifist commies, we can just stop trying.
edit: the laughable failure to understand basic human psychology in this thread, lmao
“I can give up fossil fuels, or I can stop slaughtering innocents but fuck you if you want both.”
Let me put it in simpler terms. I can do the right thing as long as it doesn’t require me to do something very wrong. Then it would be wrong.
What funny is both issue are extremely linked.
Earlier this year, Isreal sign an agreement with Lebanon to help explore the area for gas and oil.
Isreal anounced a new middle East to supply eroupe with gas.
Iareal on October 19 or around ot awarded 12 companies the ability to explore gas and oil in the region.
The only thing that was stopping them is Hamas.
The expected value goes over 400 billion in the last few years, as expressed in a report by the UN about the gas field there.
Besides that i’d really like to know how much these sneseless wars contribute towards further polution. All the jets burning, ground vehicles moving, possibility of nukes
Depends on how many lives are cut short and never become. If one woman were to have had 6 kids who then made another 12 grandchildren, their footprint would be much higher than if a woman never was going to have kids.
Overall it is a dark topic. But ~7 lives to a fighter jet tank of gas if I saw correctly. (28 metric tons per tank) average footprint worldwide is about 4 per person.
The moral of the story I suppose is to send everyone to war on foot, nude, and only hand to hand combat is permitted. Don’t want to figure out the footprint of a sword or hammer. Easier just to say pick up a rock.
Now that that’s sorted, let’s have some tea.
They are not. It’s a tiny region of the world and it’s ridiculous to even bring a climate consideration into such a conflict.
Yes, and Hitler really liked dogs and Nazis did a lot for animal welfare. Fuck off.
Lol i searched “Hamas Gas Isreal” to find the article a while back saying how they can’t work in the region because of hamas and guess what I find?
1 Hour ago:
Chevron Restarts Gas Production on Platform Near Gaza Strip
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/13/world/middleeast/chevron-israel-tamar-gas.html
Imagine thinking the Middle East, a “tiny region” which also just so happens to be where more than half of all oil used on Earth comes from, is irrelevant to the discussion of climate change.
You probably wouldn’t be so angry if you weren’t having to bend over backwards to make nonsensical arguments like this to defend your nonsensical opinions.
Seriously, no matter which side she takes, she’s going to lose a lot of support.