- cross-posted to:
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- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
Last year, I wrote a great deal about the rise of “ventilation shutdown plus” (VSD+), a method being used to mass kill poultry birds on factory farms by sealing off the airflow inside barns and pumping in extreme heat using industrial-scale heaters, so that the animals die of heatstroke over the course of hours. It is one of the worst forms of cruelty being inflicted on animals in the US food system — the equivalent of roasting animals to death — and it’s been used to kill tens of millions of poultry birds during the current avian flu outbreak.
As of this summer, the most recent period for which data is available, more than 49 million birds, or over 80 percent of the depopulated total, were killed in culls that used VSD+ either alone or in combination with other methods, according to an analysis of USDA data by Gwendolen Reyes-Illg, a veterinary adviser to the Animal Welfare Institute (AWI), an animal advocacy nonprofit. These mass killings, or “depopulations,” in the industry’s jargon, are paid for with public dollars through a USDA program that compensates livestock farmers for their losses.
I’m not and I condemn this bullshit.
“capitalism is more effective than alternatives”
Capitalism showing why it is more effective :
Lmao how does this have more upvotes than the one you’re replying to.
Because vegans are annoying AF?
I am and I don’t condemn this bullshit. I believe they should be tortured even more.
So you’ll put your money where your mouth is and stop buying chicken then right? That’s how condemnation works.
No it’s not, you’re confusing condemnation with boycott
I raise my own chickens. I love them very much. Some of them get eaten. I am very grateful to those. You don’t have to be a vegan to be a good person.
In their eyes you do.
Also a backyard chicken owner. My ladies live well
You don’t necessarily have to be vegan to be a good person. I’m sure your chickens wouldn’t miss an egg or two every once in a while. It is pretty fucked up to claim that you love them, but also kill and eat them sometimes. Like, I love my cat, and because of that the idea of putting her dead body in my mouth makes me feel sick.
“I love my chickens so much that I kill and eat them sometimes”
Remind me not to let you watch my dogs
Wow. I’m really fucking floored by y’all’s response. Where do you think your food comes from man? Seriously. I’m not being ugly, like you are, im trying to understand how you feel like you have less impact than I do. I am just able to take the responsibility for my own food
My food comes primarily from farms. I’m not saying I necessarily have less of an impact on anything than you, all I’m saying is that I don’t kill animals for food and I don’t pay for them to be killed.
You mocked me, man. It only hurts in the super small space that internet strangers can reach but it exists, regardless of how small. So. Bullshit.
I pointed out some cognitive dissonance. I care a little bit more about random animals’ lives than I do about random internet strangers’ feelings.
And while we are talking about cognitive dissonance, where the fuck do you think YOUR food comes from?
You should consider that the only way you will convince people to care more about random animals’ lives is if you care about strangers’ feelings. You don’t change minds by attacking someone, whether it be a personal attack or a lifestyle one.
I was being sarcastic you dumb fuck.
Where the fuck do you think meat comes from? Farms.
… I don’t eat meat.
Okay?
Do you kill them?
Yes. I do. I have a separate small flock. I feed my family a proportion of our food over half that I grow, rise, and make myself. It would be impossible with out the protein from the chickens. And before anyone says some dumb shit to me, you do the math of your monoculture grown vegan food and if you still think my overall footprint is greater than yours, you are wrong.
That must be really hard on you. I’ve killed animals before and that’s why I know I never want to be part of that and I never want to make anyone else do that for me. I know the statistics, people who kill animals are more likely to abuse drugs, self harm, hurt others, and commit suicide. When you kill animals you kill part of yourself. You have to, because our human instincts make us empathize with animals.
That’s why I’m vegan. I don’t pretend like consumer choices are going to save the environment - nothing either of us do as individuals matters on that front. I’m vegan because someone has to kill those animals and it fucks people up. Maybe you’re fine. I doubt it.
Seek help.
what would you think of a backyard farm where chickens are only killed once they’re dead? or, are only basically killed when they would otherwise die from old age in the next, say, 2 months, to just put a random number on it? would only be killed when they are diseased, have cancer etc. Cause we already do that with people a good amount of the time, assisted suicide, hospice, whatever.
also what do you think of if we just ate like old people
I’d honestly be okay if someone ate their 17 year old dog that they had to put down because she broke her hip or whatever; they lived a good and long life filled with love and were put down humanely. I think that’s weird as fuck and I sure as hell wouldn’t do it, but I don’t have a problem with it. I guess.
You have to realize how ridiculous the concept is, though, right?
Well yeah, it’s kind of ridiculous, but I wonder like. How much of that is cause we just don’t do it that often? It’s sort of like if you saw someone just fill up a cup with their spit and then drink the whole thing. It’s nasty, but is there anything really wrong with it? I don’t actually know, I don’t know anything about the biology and consumption of a large amount of spit, I imagine it has to be pretty alright since we’re mostly consuming spit all the time, but I don’t really know. Just an example, anyways.
Can I have dibs on your dog? Or, put another way, are you gonna finish that?
You are an insane person and a coward. You buy your food at a supermarket and are not able to comprehend the impact of your precious soy. As a matter of fact, your not even on my level really. You are probably a child. If you ever need help, call me.
Oh honey.
You’re not improving your argument by making inane and disparaging comments like this.
I get my chicken (and beef) from small, local neighboring farms, directly. I don’t see the problem?
If your question is genuine, these small farms you speak of are still breeding animals with intent to slaughter them. At the end of the day, the only meaningful difference with a small farm is that you can probably shake the hand of the person who needlessly killed an animal. Can’t get that at those big mean factory farms, that’s for sure.
Assuming that’s the intent is an asshole move. What if the primary intent is to extract nutrition from land that is otherwise unproductive?
Is it not the intent? A farmer generally isn’t going to raise an animal for fun. That wouldn’t be profitable, and small farms are already difficult to make a living on.
I can entertain the idea that I could walk up to a farmer and ask them what their intent is, and they reply, “why it’s to extract nutrition from land that is otherwise unproductive, of course!”. But the end result is the same in either case regardless of stated intent: animals are being killed unnecessarily.
To be clear, none of this applies to people who rely on animal products to survive (e.g. people in the unproductive land you mentioned). I’m talking about people like myself (and likely many others here) who have access to supermarkets and other products of a globalized food system. Like Uncle Ben said, with great
powerprivilege comes great responsibility.deleted by creator
Land has more value than economic activity, such as natural habitat and biodiversity and recreation (all things farmers destroy lol)
And yet, you couldn’t resist the temptation to be aggressive and further turn off people to the idea of going meat free, vs trying to kindly convince them.
These sort of vegan evangelists have no idea the damage they do to their cause.
That’s hilarious, people have no sense of personal responsibility whatsoever. Just look at COVID.
They use the argument that one person not eating meat won’t change anything. Ignoring the fact that they are literally deriving joy from suffering. It doesn’t have to be this way. I truly believe meat can be ethical, but when 99.8% of beef is factory farmed I do not have the option to ethically eat meat.
17 years meat free and every once in awhile I reconsider adding chicken to my diet. Then I see a post like this lol
I think ethical meat can only truly exist in theory (though with cell culture meat I suspect that that will change).
Anyway, I just wanted to say 17 years is a long time. Thanks for walking the talk. Not many people do.
Some of us instead reduce consumption and buy expensive meat products which are locally and humanely raised.
Still, eating meat in today’s society is a choice you don’t have to make. Having a pleasant taste in your mouth on one hand versus climate warming, loss of biodiversity and animal cruelty. Even when locally grown. For me, the choice is not hard to make.
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You do understand you’re not doing your cause any favours by being a fundamentalist right?
“I hate cruelty to animals” buys animal products at the grocery store
This is such a common phenomenon that it has a name: cognitive dissonance. If you already knew what that was, then your comment suggests another example of it.
They’re not mutually exclusive. There’s plenty of ways to buy ethically sourced meat. Local butchers often buy pigs, chickens, and cows to butcher and cut for consumers near me. The cows typically have a central barn where they have clean bedding and recycling water troughs, get fed every morning (maybe night), and are allowed to freely roam in a pasture whenever they please.
I eat about the size of my palm of meat every day, so over the corse of a year i probably eat 5-6 chickens, a sixth of a pig, and an eight of a cow. At those numbers, it’s totally possible to make ethically sourced meat work as a business.
A substantial percentage of people have access to food systems that allow them to thrive on plants alone, freeing them from a dependence on animal products. For these individuals, is ‘ethically sourced meat’ even possible? That is to say: if we know that killing a living being is unnecessary, is it ethical to do it anyway?
It’s an interesting question that probably has an individualized answer depending on who you ask. In my opinion, we have afforded their species comforts that no other species has. So a humane death and respectful use of their body is ethical in my eyes. Most wild animals die from infection or starvation and we’ve protected our domesticated animals from that horrible drawn out death on ethical farms.
I’d argue the most ethical course of action is to halt the breeding of additional animals for the purpose of slaughter. We have complete control of the situation here: not all wild animals die gruesome deaths, but a livestock animal’s fate is decided far before they are even born. It feels a little less than ‘humane’.
And that’s why the truly realistic and humane people reduce their animal product consumption and try to limit it to local products.
The “ethical” food typically cost more – what if they can’t afford it? Would you give them financial aid, or does your preaching stop at words?
In case you missed it, I made a point of scoping this ethical question to people who do have the means to make choices with their consumption. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask people to make ethical choices provided that they are able.
I wouldn’t tell someone not to shoot an oncoming attacker because murder is unethical. In the same vein if someone has no choice in what they can eat, it would be ridiculous to tell them to try to ‘make ethical choices’.
Shooting an oncoming attacker isn’t murder. Not a great comparison.
Rice veggies and beans is among the cheapest of foods.
It’s also great depression food if you eat it regularly!
And anyway, not everybody can eat all the same foods. Plenty of people can’t eat beans without shitting their brains out, for example. Likewise with a lot of vegetables, though then it depends on the type of vegetable.
The only ethically sourced meat is meat that’s hunted to prevent overpopulation. There is no ethical way to make two animals breed with the intent to cut their offspring’s life short so that you can eat it.
I hate capitalism, I still spend money
I can exist within society and still be critical of it, quite frankly I’m not sure how else one exists.
You’re aware of how we treat produce pickers right? How we treat the people who sew your clothes together? Or the people who assembled the device you’re reading this on?
Cruelty to life exists at every level. If you’ve ever eaten chocolate, or had coffee you’ve participated in slavery.
A vegan that can’t resist antagonizing others over their diet is being rather counterproductive. It’s an easier lifestyle choice to keep your mouth shut and not be snarky than it is to completely change your diet.
It begs the question, if this person criticizing me can’t make an easier lifestyle change than what they want me to do, why should I even listen?
(And I’m going to get replies that completely miss the point and continue to moralize at me)
Most vegans can’t keep up the lifestyle more than about 5-7 years, as health issues start to creep in.
The diet isn’t as nutritious as they claim, and there is no good replacement for animal fat and protein.
The meat industry has problems. Don’t get me wrong. But they’re not at the same scale most vegans will tell you they are, and as it happens herbivores are much better at turning plants in to energy than we are. Plus it’s not like we’re treating the actual humans picking tomatoes much better than we treat cattle.
Gonna cite these stats or are you just parroting Joe Rogan? Obviously there’s a large amount of gastronomic variation among humans, some people can’t go vegan easily. But the idea meat has anything you can’t get from plants is absolutely a myth: I eat dark chocolate and nuts for iron, and B12 is in all sorts of shit from mushrooms to potatoes (and is easy to supplement with vitamin water or fortified cereal if not pills). And protein? Protein is the textbook example of this. Y’all just have some weird thing against broccoli and chickpeas.