Last week, Pope Francis approved a ruling at the Vatican that permitted priests to administer blessings to same-sex couples.
I don’t think so.
Edit:
This is also the understanding of marriage that is offered by the Gospel. For this reason, when it comes to blessings, the Church has the right and the duty to avoid any rite that might contradict this conviction or lead to confusion. Such is also the meaning of the Responsum of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which states that the Church does not have the power to impart blessings on unions of persons of the same sex.
This is also the understanding of marriage that is offered by the Gospel. For this reason, when it comes to blessings, the Church has the right and the duty to avoid any rite that might contradict this conviction or lead to confusion. Such is also the meaning of the Responsum of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which states that the Church does not have the power to impart blessings on unions of persons of the same sex.
You’re contradicting yourself in your own comment my guy. It’s always been this way, but that’s a tall argument to make, but no change happened? What are you even arguing?
I’m saying that technically speaking, the Pope hasn’t invoked any change in Catholic faith with his preaching, and is instead arguing to a change of understanding of the Catholic doctrine. Its both a big deal and a not-big-deal. It’s only a big deal if people make it into a big deal kinda thing. And… yes… people are making it into a bigger deal than it should be.
Not gay people mind you. This is good for LGBT+ communities. The people who are mistaken are the ultra-conservatives who think that things have changed dramatically with this announcement.
Jesus always called upon us to preach and try to understand outsiders. The Good Samaritan for example, was literally a non-religious outsider who Jesus specifically called out as a blessed person. None of this is necessarily “new preaching” from the current Pope, but instead a focus upon other elements of scripture.
Priests can bless sinners, heathens, pagans, etc. etc. Jesus chose literally corrupt Tax Collectors to become his Apostles for example. As such: Priests are supposed to bless even the most sinful among us… and are called to do so. A blessing is not supposed to be condoning a person’s behavior or a statement of morality. So even if you are a priest who believes that homosexuality is sinful, there’s nothing stopping you from blessing homosexuals (or if you are in that position, its arguably more important for you to bless them. A priest’s damn job is to reach out to sinners after all).
The reason such a statement is so annoying to the ultra-conservatives, is because they want to use Catholicism / Religion as a cudgel against gay people, when that never was the purpose of religion to begin with. This is literally a faith that was supposed to spread universally across the world after all. That’s literally what it means to be Catholic (IE: universal)
Ultimately, I’m saying yall should work with what the Pope is trying to say here. He’s thought deeply about this preaching and its a good argument. Both for Catholics and those outside of it (at least, if you want to understand how Catholics think/preach/etc. etc.)
That’s kind of the rule in Catholicism. They don’t really believe in changing a perfect church. They just reinterpret what obviously already was sacred tradition.
Ehhh. Two Truths from St. Thomas Aquinas says otherwise. If science is true and if God doesn’t lie to us, then whatever God teaches must be compatible with science. So yes, discoveries of the scientific type force us to change our understanding of faith.
But its not like say… Gravity didn’t exist 2000 years ago or something. Earth always was a floating orb circling the sun, even if earlier Catholics didn’t believe that (just as an example). And therefore, St. Thomas Aquinas would argue the Good Catholic would change their mind and understanding of faith.
If we have two truths that contradict, then the only alternative is that our understanding of those truths is faulty.
The Church has immobile “Mysteries” that have been documented by the Council of Nicea as per our Nicene Creed. These are (in practice), the only immobile elements of our faith that remain unchanging. Most other elements and arguments of morality are (and have) changed as society has changed. None of this is new to a Catholic who has studied our history. A large element of change and improvement is built into the Church.
IE: The concept of Limbo has been removed from our faith within the lifetimes of the elders. If you want a more recent example. The indulgence thing back from Martin Luther’s days (the 1500s guy, not the 1950s guy) is also a change.
But in any case, this particular doctrine with regards to blessings of homosexuals isn’t a change on the scale of Limbo or whatever. Pope Francis is just saying that Priests are 100% absolutely allowed (and probably preferred) to bless homosexuals together, as long as the ritual isn’t confused for marriage (which is one of our deeply sacred sacraments, of which we believe has a large element of procreation / making babies).
Priests are called upon to do all kinds of blessings: house blessings, throat blessings, etc. etc. It shouldn’t be too surprising that Priests can make other blessings on the spot or invent new ones. This sort of thing (IE: Blessing of two Homosexuals) that is going on has always been part of a Priest’s power, so to speak.
Its only “confusing” to ultra-conservatives because they wanted an excuse from on-high saying that blessings of homosexuals was against our faith for some reason.
It’s just my religion dude. Just like living and breathing to me. No big deal. I grew up and memorized this stuff.
It’s near effortless. So don’t worry about it. A lot of this stuff is just base level precanned arguments honestly.
On the other hand, imagine coming to a topic about the Pope and matters of faith and deciding to close your mind about basic facts pertaining to Catholicism. Like, what the hell are YOU doing in this topic?
What? As a Catholic you would know the pope is a representative of Jesus Christ.
Ummm… you mean Peter, right? The Pope as an institution is derived of Jesus’s promise to Peter, and not from Jesus himself per se. Jesus is God. If God wants to do something, He needs no representative. It just happens.
It isn’t up for discussion if he decrees something
Did the Pope speak ex cathedra here?
Note: there are only a few times in the past millennia that a Pope has ever invoked ex cathedra.
What kind of bad Hollywood movie or anime did you learn Catholic values from?
EDIT: I’m just noticing now that your post is 10 days old. It looks like lemm.ee had some sync issues with lemmy.world. The server finally notified me of your response. Apologies if this is digging up an old, week old subject. But I promise it was at the top of my inbox yesterday when I responded.
To keep in line with the scripture that defines the sacrament of marriage as between a man and a woman, he created a second type of marriage for everyone else so their unions may be officially blessed by the church, and basically said that it is not up to the church to judge people for their way of life but up to god.
Francis has actually been a very progressive pope, making great strides to make the church a more welcoming place.
Disclaimer: I’m an atheist myself, not a catholic. Still I can commend positive change, and the fact that so many more bigoted church people are bitching about what he did should emphasize the seriousness of his changes.
So people ask priests to bless stuff rather often. Stuff like babies, boats, cars, fields, tractors, running shoes, and whatever else. This is the kind of religious tradition that goes back a long way before Christianity, but nevertheless, the Roman Catholic church has policies, procedures, and liturgical texts for how to do it.
These types of blessings are not usually a major part of spiritual life for most people.
Previously, it was explicitly forbidden for a priest to offer this kind of blessing to a sane-sex couple. That is now permitted, but the priest must take steps to ensure that no one is confused that this might be a marriage, which it is definitely not (in the eyes of the church).
he created a second type of marriage for everyone else so their unions may be officially blessed by the church
The church doesn’t have the power to create different types of marriages and neither does the pope. I do not believe the nature of the change made is being described or reported accurately. It is being oversimplified.
Francis has actually been a very progressive pope, making great strides to make the church a more welcoming place.
I agree. I think a lot of changes he has made are good. I think this change is good. I think reporting on it has been dumbed down to the point of being incorrect.
From my understanding he didn’t create any sort of new officially sanctioned union. He simply allowed blessings of same sex couples with some caveats. Mostly that the blessing cannot occur directly in connection with any sort of union ceremony (marriage, civil union, etc) and that it cannot involve any of the typical trappings of a marriage ceremony so as to avoid confusion.
So basically, you can’t get the blessing at your actual wedding. You can’t get the blessing if you show up in tuxedos/bridal dresses, exchange rings, whatever else even if technically it isn’t a wedding. Simply show up together on any random day as a couple and ask for a blessing without those things? Sure they’ll do it. Whereas before they couldn’t.
In the USA. But I hear that German priests were doing this blessing. So the Pope needs to make an announcement to keep the Church unified on this issue.
The church has always had a unified stance on this, but there are a lot of priests out there, and many of them will go rogue at times. You’re seeing it with Catholic leadership in the US right now, especially over politics. Being a diehard supporter for Trump and being a Catholic is becoming a much more difficult tightrope to walk because it often backslides into rejecting basic social norms and human decency. Notice how he just removed a bishop who had become particularly loud lately.
Basically, it’s impossible to audit every single priest, bishop, deacon, cardinal, etc. out there and make sure they are 100% nailing everything exactly right. The church kind of dragged its feet on LGBTQ issues even as they were rapidly changing in the world, so naturally some people started taking it upon themselves to give it their own individual spin and went a little more hard line or loose. That stuff tends to shake out overtime as the church makes its existing stance clearer or clarifies how to apply it to new situations - often in response to deviation.
I don’t think so.
Edit:
https://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/it/bollettino/pubblico/2023/12/18/0901/01963.html#en
What do you mean, you don’t think so? He did.
https://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/it/bollettino/pubblico/2023/12/18/0901/01963.html#en
picking the part you like and presenting it out of context. Very Christian of you.
As opposed to everyone else who is ignoring that part.
There is nuance, but people are saying things like “the pope created another kind of marriage.”
https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueChristian/s/kvmnhqwwZ9
Arguably, the Pope has said it was always like this and hasn’t changed anything.
Which is… A tall argument to make given how many priests are pissed off about the Pope’s announcement.
Note: I am Catholic. Ama I guess, lol. But technically speaking, this is just how the Church always has been and therefore no change happened.
You’re contradicting yourself in your own comment my guy. It’s always been this way, but that’s a tall argument to make, but no change happened? What are you even arguing?
They are catholic after all
I’m saying that technically speaking, the Pope hasn’t invoked any change in Catholic faith with his preaching, and is instead arguing to a change of understanding of the Catholic doctrine. Its both a big deal and a not-big-deal. It’s only a big deal if people make it into a big deal kinda thing. And… yes… people are making it into a bigger deal than it should be.
Not gay people mind you. This is good for LGBT+ communities. The people who are mistaken are the ultra-conservatives who think that things have changed dramatically with this announcement.
Jesus always called upon us to preach and try to understand outsiders. The Good Samaritan for example, was literally a non-religious outsider who Jesus specifically called out as a blessed person. None of this is necessarily “new preaching” from the current Pope, but instead a focus upon other elements of scripture.
Priests can bless sinners, heathens, pagans, etc. etc. Jesus chose literally corrupt Tax Collectors to become his Apostles for example. As such: Priests are supposed to bless even the most sinful among us… and are called to do so. A blessing is not supposed to be condoning a person’s behavior or a statement of morality. So even if you are a priest who believes that homosexuality is sinful, there’s nothing stopping you from blessing homosexuals (or if you are in that position, its arguably more important for you to bless them. A priest’s damn job is to reach out to sinners after all).
The reason such a statement is so annoying to the ultra-conservatives, is because they want to use Catholicism / Religion as a cudgel against gay people, when that never was the purpose of religion to begin with. This is literally a faith that was supposed to spread universally across the world after all. That’s literally what it means to be Catholic (IE: universal)
Ultimately, I’m saying yall should work with what the Pope is trying to say here. He’s thought deeply about this preaching and its a good argument. Both for Catholics and those outside of it (at least, if you want to understand how Catholics think/preach/etc. etc.)
Would it be Christianity without the contradictions?
That’s kind of the rule in Catholicism. They don’t really believe in changing a perfect church. They just reinterpret what obviously already was sacred tradition.
Ehhh. Two Truths from St. Thomas Aquinas says otherwise. If science is true and if God doesn’t lie to us, then whatever God teaches must be compatible with science. So yes, discoveries of the scientific type force us to change our understanding of faith.
But its not like say… Gravity didn’t exist 2000 years ago or something. Earth always was a floating orb circling the sun, even if earlier Catholics didn’t believe that (just as an example). And therefore, St. Thomas Aquinas would argue the Good Catholic would change their mind and understanding of faith.
If we have two truths that contradict, then the only alternative is that our understanding of those truths is faulty.
The Church has immobile “Mysteries” that have been documented by the Council of Nicea as per our Nicene Creed. These are (in practice), the only immobile elements of our faith that remain unchanging. Most other elements and arguments of morality are (and have) changed as society has changed. None of this is new to a Catholic who has studied our history. A large element of change and improvement is built into the Church.
IE: The concept of Limbo has been removed from our faith within the lifetimes of the elders. If you want a more recent example. The indulgence thing back from Martin Luther’s days (the 1500s guy, not the 1950s guy) is also a change.
But in any case, this particular doctrine with regards to blessings of homosexuals isn’t a change on the scale of Limbo or whatever. Pope Francis is just saying that Priests are 100% absolutely allowed (and probably preferred) to bless homosexuals together, as long as the ritual isn’t confused for marriage (which is one of our deeply sacred sacraments, of which we believe has a large element of procreation / making babies).
Priests are called upon to do all kinds of blessings: house blessings, throat blessings, etc. etc. It shouldn’t be too surprising that Priests can make other blessings on the spot or invent new ones. This sort of thing (IE: Blessing of two Homosexuals) that is going on has always been part of a Priest’s power, so to speak.
Its only “confusing” to ultra-conservatives because they wanted an excuse from on-high saying that blessings of homosexuals was against our faith for some reason.
deleted by creator
It’s just my religion dude. Just like living and breathing to me. No big deal. I grew up and memorized this stuff.
It’s near effortless. So don’t worry about it. A lot of this stuff is just base level precanned arguments honestly.
On the other hand, imagine coming to a topic about the Pope and matters of faith and deciding to close your mind about basic facts pertaining to Catholicism. Like, what the hell are YOU doing in this topic?
What? As a Catholic you would know the pope is a representative of Jesus Christ. It isn’t up for discussion if he decrees something
Ummm… you mean Peter, right? The Pope as an institution is derived of Jesus’s promise to Peter, and not from Jesus himself per se. Jesus is God. If God wants to do something, He needs no representative. It just happens.
Did the Pope speak ex cathedra here?
Note: there are only a few times in the past millennia that a Pope has ever invoked ex cathedra.
What kind of bad Hollywood movie or anime did you learn Catholic values from?
EDIT: I’m just noticing now that your post is 10 days old. It looks like lemm.ee had some sync issues with lemmy.world. The server finally notified me of your response. Apologies if this is digging up an old, week old subject. But I promise it was at the top of my inbox yesterday when I responded.
Yes, he actually did.
To keep in line with the scripture that defines the sacrament of marriage as between a man and a woman, he created a second type of marriage for everyone else so their unions may be officially blessed by the church, and basically said that it is not up to the church to judge people for their way of life but up to god. Francis has actually been a very progressive pope, making great strides to make the church a more welcoming place.
Disclaimer: I’m an atheist myself, not a catholic. Still I can commend positive change, and the fact that so many more bigoted church people are bitching about what he did should emphasize the seriousness of his changes.
So people ask priests to bless stuff rather often. Stuff like babies, boats, cars, fields, tractors, running shoes, and whatever else. This is the kind of religious tradition that goes back a long way before Christianity, but nevertheless, the Roman Catholic church has policies, procedures, and liturgical texts for how to do it.
These types of blessings are not usually a major part of spiritual life for most people.
Previously, it was explicitly forbidden for a priest to offer this kind of blessing to a sane-sex couple. That is now permitted, but the priest must take steps to ensure that no one is confused that this might be a marriage, which it is definitely not (in the eyes of the church).
The holy blessing of the server room
If Radius stays up for a week I’ll convert.
Heh
Mythical, no such entity
The church doesn’t have the power to create different types of marriages and neither does the pope. I do not believe the nature of the change made is being described or reported accurately. It is being oversimplified.
I agree. I think a lot of changes he has made are good. I think this change is good. I think reporting on it has been dumbed down to the point of being incorrect.
From my understanding he didn’t create any sort of new officially sanctioned union. He simply allowed blessings of same sex couples with some caveats. Mostly that the blessing cannot occur directly in connection with any sort of union ceremony (marriage, civil union, etc) and that it cannot involve any of the typical trappings of a marriage ceremony so as to avoid confusion.
So basically, you can’t get the blessing at your actual wedding. You can’t get the blessing if you show up in tuxedos/bridal dresses, exchange rings, whatever else even if technically it isn’t a wedding. Simply show up together on any random day as a couple and ask for a blessing without those things? Sure they’ll do it. Whereas before they couldn’t.
In the USA. But I hear that German priests were doing this blessing. So the Pope needs to make an announcement to keep the Church unified on this issue.
The church has always had a unified stance on this, but there are a lot of priests out there, and many of them will go rogue at times. You’re seeing it with Catholic leadership in the US right now, especially over politics. Being a diehard supporter for Trump and being a Catholic is becoming a much more difficult tightrope to walk because it often backslides into rejecting basic social norms and human decency. Notice how he just removed a bishop who had become particularly loud lately.
Basically, it’s impossible to audit every single priest, bishop, deacon, cardinal, etc. out there and make sure they are 100% nailing everything exactly right. The church kind of dragged its feet on LGBTQ issues even as they were rapidly changing in the world, so naturally some people started taking it upon themselves to give it their own individual spin and went a little more hard line or loose. That stuff tends to shake out overtime as the church makes its existing stance clearer or clarifies how to apply it to new situations - often in response to deviation.
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