I will focus on Estonia, as that’s where I grew up, but I assume this topic is also very relevant to the other Baltic nations.

For my whole life, I have heard horrible stories about Soviet occupiers. I have yet to meet a single person in real life who actually believed in communism or socialism, despite being raised in Soviet times and spending a lot of their childhood learning about Lenin, Stalin, etc.

I always knew that there are people out there (especially in other ex-soviet countries) who remember the USSR fondly, but I always assumed that this was more about nationalism than anything else, like “oh man it sure was great when we had a powerful military and a strong presence on the world stage”. It has been a serious culture shock to discover that the leaders of the Soviet union actually seem to have believed in the project, and that elsewhere in the union, the people seem to have believed in it as well! It really gives me a new perspective on Soviet nostalgia.

Meanwhile in the Baltic countries, and especially in Estonia, all age groups, including the very elderly, treat our Soviet past as an extremely dark time in our history. Just take a look at Estonia here compared to other nations: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2017/06/29/in-russia-nostalgia-for-soviet-union-and-positive-feelings-about-stalin/

When discussing this with older people, or when I hear Soviet times discussed in general, I always hear statements like:

  • Almost everybody had family members or friends deported or killed (a part of the Estonian population was deported early in the occupation under the guise of being kulaks and nationalists, except the vast majority were women and children)
  • People lost their ancestral homes and were forced into tiny apartments shared with other families
  • There were constant shortages of food - you had to know somebody in the party or somebody working in a shop to get any actual variety in your meals
  • In general, everything was super corrupt, being “well-connected” meant you had a much easier life
  • Our culture was being deleted, we were not allowed to sing our songs, discuss a lot of our history, etc
  • People felt that they had lost their dignity and were not treated in a humane way

Conversely, I have not really heard many (or really any that I can remember) positive statements.

So this is something I have been thinking about for the past few days, and it’s not a topic that I can generally find a lot previous unbiased discussions on online (I guess because at the end of the day, the Baltic nations are absolutely tiny).

So: what actually went wrong? Why did communist ideology not manage to take root within the minds of the Baltic people? Maybe others here have some interesting perspectives.

One thought I have had myself:

Estonia was never a colonial power, we were in fact serfs, with other nations like Sweden, Denmark and Russia taking turns at ruling us. So when the Soviet union marched in with their army, the Estonian people only saw it as another exploitative ruler, with no interest in hearing anything about socialism. Nevertheless, this doesn’t really explain why several generations growing up in the Soviet union never learned to appreciate socialism.

  • Maoo [none/use name]@hexbear.netEnglish
    2·
    1 year ago

    • Were doing pretty well in Soviet times and had the experience of cutting themselves out before Russia tanked. A perception that they did things right and Russia held them back.

    • Were not subjected to nearly as vicious of economic violence in post-Soviet times.

    • Were offered up NATO membership on a silver platter.

    • Had a lot of Nazi sympathetic history and despite the memes, the Soviets let the vast majority of them live and have children and harbor antisemitic views.

    • Western ahistorical narratives easily took root due to the above.

    Compare to post-Soviet countries that were more thoroughly stripped for parts, saw dramatic losses in quality of life, never fully recovered, and/or lacked such a strong Nazi sympathetic history that was whitewashed into cultural heritage. Most of those countries (European side) had and have all of these elements and properties, it’s a matter of degree and whether one thoroughly won out in the aftermath.

    Russia would probably be the same if it hadn’t been subjectes to shock therapy.

  • Thordros [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.netEnglish
    0·
    1 year ago

    As somebody from Hexbear, I feel obligated to, uh, say something mean about Estonia? I don’t know why, but I’m told by other instances that we’re a pro-Estonian genocide instance.

    Anyway. ur mom gay. HA GOTTEM!

    (I literally have not heard anything about Estonia since Pauly Shore made it a gag in Encino Man.)

      • kristina [she/her]@hexbear.netEnglish
        1·
        1 year ago

        yeah i mean, doesnt that kinda prove the op wrong a bit that the disco elysium devs are probably the only game developers from estonia of note and theyre communists? it could be that a lot of the pro communist sentiment is buried on purpose

        • hatchet@lemm.eeOPEnglish
          2·
          1 year ago

          In my experience, it’s extremely fringe and basically completely taboo to be pro-communism in Estonia. Disco Elysium is definitely a point of pride for many Estonian video game enjoyers, but even so, when discussing the authors, Estonians get super awkward about their communism. The general vibe I’ve seen is something like “ZA/UM can be forgiven for having a few screws loose, they’re artists after all” etc.

          • kristina [she/her]@hexbear.netEnglish
            1·
            1 year ago

            also, should be noted that the baltics are out of the norm in that they were one of the ex-soviet areas that received a lot of foreign funding and are now doing better, at least gdp wise, than they did under the soviets. but it took 20ish years for this to happen. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c2/GDP_per_capita_Baltics.svg/1280px-GDP_per_capita_Baltics.svg.png. from what i can tell, PPP has remained stagnant in estonia since the soviet collapse.

            this could be fueling reactionary opinions in society, but it should also be noted that the west has a keen interest in getting the baltics under their heel, it allows them to put more pressure on russia from the north. its unlikely that the baltics would be stable economically without this significant investment from the west. but if you take a look at the graph i linked, you can clearly plot the trend out, under the soviets the gdp would be higher in these areas.

    • autismdragon [he/him, they/them]@hexbear.netEnglish
      1·
      1 year ago

      Not a fan of how this discussion went tbh. GoodEye8 brought up the very same poll about The Baltic states sentiments about the Soviet period that OP is talking about here, and the comrades in the thread switched to “well yeah the Baltics are Nazis” which seems immensely shitty to me. I’m not saying there isn’t a Nazi sympathy problem in Baltics, the prevalence of double genocide Definity means there is. But surely there’s a reason why such sentiments are common in the Baltics besides “well the people of the Baltic countries are just naturally Nazi inclined” or some shit. I think the comrades there could have done a better job of adressing GoodEye8 when they brought up the poll showing that pro-Soviet period sentiments are uncommon in the Baltics.

  • PKMKII [none/use name]@hexbear.netEnglish
    0·
    1 year ago

    I really do think it’s the cultural rift. The Baltics are culturally much more closer to Germanic/Scandinavian cultures than Slavic ones, so the Russians were much more so outsiders to them than many other countries that gained independence in the post-Soviet era. And so anything Russian coming in felt like an attack on their culture. Probably also due to them being brought into the Soviet fold in the post-revolution period which made it feel more like a realpolitik move. It was more about the strategic advantage of having Baltic Sea ports, so it created a feeling of being used.