Comparison left vs right for a craftsman who doesnt know which one he should buy:
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l/r same bed size
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r lower bed for way easier loading/unloading
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r less likely to crash
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r less fuel consumption and costs
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r less expensive to repair
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r easy to park
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r easy to get around in narrow places like crowded construction sites or towns
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r not participating in road arms race
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l You get taken serious by your fellow carbrained americans because ““trucks”” are normalized and small handy cars are ridiculed.
So unless you are a fragile piece of human, choose the right one.
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Just gonna keep on posting this
This is why Pedestrian crash avoidance mitigation (PCAM) needs to be standard required by law, and will be on Californian shortly, and with California goes the world.
This pic is fantastic but I wish there were more examples from actual alternatives to what people claim they need the pickups for e.g. vans like Trafics, Kangoos/Berlingos, Mercedes Sprinter/Vito etc etc. There is at least a sprinter there in version pickup, which has a very good result as I’m sure the other ones would as well, because these things tend to have the windshield all the way at the front of the vehicle so you have great visibility for the front 180°, the back 180° depends on the configuration you have which range from completely closed/opaque cargo space to fully furnished 5/7 seaters with windows.
Good pic. Question : I’m new to Lemmy. How come it’s almost impossible to resize a pic without the pic closing on me? Is there a trick to this?
I have this same problem on the Connect app. Which app are you using?
Connect haha
I love that there’s casually an Abrams in the middle there.
You don’t happen to be a toxicologist, do you?
I agree with the sentiment of this post, but to be fair, you can also carry 3 or 4 passengers in the left vehicle, as opposed to only one in the right.
The main problem is the US fuel economy regulations actually encourage manufacturers to build bigger trucks and SUVs so they get classified into a category that has looser fuel economy requirements.
You are right. Still the american truck is hugely oversized, even for 5 persons and cargo. But, for the sake of the argument, imagine standing on the highway. Have a gander at the cars around you. How many people per car do you see? Exactly, 90% of the time there is exactly one person in a car. What makes the american truck an extreme waste of space an ressources, beside being a health hazard to everyone outside of the car.
Cars should get smaller, not bigger.
The extended cab version of the right truck would still tick all the boxes.
Off-road and towing capacity are probably the main feature you give up with that sort of design. Whether or not most people need that is a separate story.
They make kei trucks in 4x4, but you do lose ground clearance.
That being said, what kind of “off road” conditions are any of the trucks really contending with?
Muddy fields when parking at church or boy scouts or whatever.
Whats best is the kei 4x4 is probably significantly better in most off road situations due to its lighter weight and shorter wheel base. You can drive/manuever around things easier and when you are on mud or sand, the lighter weight prevents sinking.
what kind of “off road” conditions are any of the trucks really contending with?
Probably all of the conditions, considering how many of those trucks there are, but it would be fun to see an off-road shootout between the two.
Sounds like a job for Donut Media.
You’re mostly right. The main problem is that manufacturers chose to ignore the spirit of the US CAFE fuel economy regulations, and instead build everything bigger and bigger. That’s why quarter-ton trucks grew to the size of the F150 in the year 2000 when they were quite a bit smaller before.
It’s not the fault of the regulation. It is the fault of the manufacturers and to an equal extent, of consumers for preferring gigantic vehicles.
And let’s not let GM off the hook for the 1990s Suburban, which began to, quite literally, dominate the roads. Those fuckers were the original huge grocery getter, and they had truly awful turning radius and blind spots. You just couldn’t drive them safely or courteously if you tried. So of course everyone wanted more powerful and bigger vehicles to compete.
I’m actually going to fault regulations on this one. The EPA bases fuel economy requirements on the wheelbase of the vehicle. They used to publish a range of values based every other year or so, but then changed it to a formula. The formula is non-linear, making it neigh impossible to build anything with a small wheelbase anymore. In theory, they could design a small hybrid truck, but would need an obnoxiously long bed to compensate.
I watched a YouTube video on it not terribly long ago, and iirc, a 95 Ford Ranger, if held to the current formula-based regulations, would need 60+ mpg to be produced without major penalties to the company.
The EPA either needs to reevaluate the formula, or start manually publishing the numbers with values that are actually achievable by the industry at scale. Basically, by publishing the formula, manufacturers are able to min-max their designs in all the wrong ways.
EDIT: Updated for clarity and fixed some typos
Yep, I think I saw that video, I was shocked how bad the regulations were. It really makes no financial sense for companies to make smaller trucks.
Really, the fault of the regulations is that the penalties for the number of vehicles in the heavy polluting category weren’t nearly stiff enough. That’s a big part of why the automakers went the opposite direction and just made bigger and heavier vehicles - they could.
Thats why we always had larger and smaller versions of trucks.
99% of trucks don’t NEED 3-4 passengers. Same with SUVs. Most are just used to commute back and forth to work.
Half ton trucks should have remained small, while the 1 ton ones should be closer to what the half-ton are sized today.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_F-Series#/media/File:1953_F100_Diagram.jpg
Look at the original F-100 for a good example. The old Rangers are also what most trucks should look like. Only the people that really use them should be driving these massive trucks around. I honestly hope gas prices spike massively because it’s going to hit idiots that drive this shit the worst.
Thanks for pointing our the real incentives which are always some bullshit about more money and less regulations - basically the reason capitalism sucks at innovation - it doesn’t care about whats important and in some cases actively hates it
What’s important for you specifically is not what is important to the customer base writ large.
You have problems with fellow consumers that you blame on manufacturers.
Capitalism does not follow the desires of consumers, it follows the desire of shareholders.
That doesn’t even make sense in the logic you’ve presented. Shareholders want to maximize value, which means selling more things to consumers, which means selling things consumers want.
If your entire worldview falls apart at the slightest scrutiny, it may be time to re-evaluate said worldview.
When you consider that marketing is intended to manipulate consumers into thinking they want your product, it’s more about convincing people that your product has value, and that they need it, rather than selling something that consumers actually need.
You are not the arbiter on what people “need,” and people do not only purchase or consume things based on “need.” As a hilariously easy example, neither of us “needs” to be here right now having this conversation.
Again, it’s time to re-evaluate the entire worldview
I never claimed to be the arbiter of what people need, but im just saying consumers dont have as much freewill as they claim when they’re actively being manipulated at every corner. Marketing is literally intended to make you feel like you need a product you didn’t previously want.
Look up manufactured scarcity. Great way to make money for shareholders without providing more to consumers. You charge them more for less. Notice any of that recently? Notice any record breaking profits in any industries?
I’ll also give you another example of capitalists not giving a fuck about what consumers want: electric cars back in the 1990s. The auto manufacturers realized they would lose their parts and repair businesses, as electric vehicles have fewer moving parts, the oil companies got pissed, so they put some power together and used the federal government to overturn californias electric car act that consumers voted for. The also forcefully recalled electric cars from consumers can crushed therm.
Your logic that capitalists only do what consumers want is whats basic and flawed. If thats true, WTF is advertising? You think it’s just a fun hobby that doesn’t work? If advertising doesn’t create false demand, why do it? We have evidence advertising creates demand, therefore advertising works, therefore you need to adjust your worldview to allow for the fact that some amount of the shit that consumers buy is nothing more than light brainwashing. Including you dear.
The difference is that efficient demand incentivizes h switchover. You’re blaming businesses for… Not leading with changes their customers don’t want
Given the usage patterns, most people in the US do not need large trucks. They have been convinced that need them because the auto manufacturers make a lot of money selling trucks.
That’s why the compact trucks are selling like hot cakes. People want trucks, but they don’t necessarily want these behemoths. I love my Santa Cruz.
Even compact trucks are not nearly as small as light trucks from a couple decades ago before regulations encouraged manufacturers to go bigger to avoid penalties.
Basically if you have two trucks with the same engine, but on a smaller wheelbase, the smaller one might be penalized for not being fuel efficient enough while the larger one isn’t. Might as well go big to avoid the cost.
I thought it was very disingenuous of OP to not mention crew capacity between the two trucks at all. I’d assume the bigger truck also has a better towing capacity which may be required. What isn’t required is buying one of these trucks to get groceries and replace your tv every 3 years while commuting to your desk job 1 hour away.
But what about cargo capacity? The beds look pretty much the same size, although I’m sure allowed weight is drastically different
I get the point your trying to prove but i don’t think it’s fair to compare these 2 as they are meant for different things and also brings in the assumption that all American craftsman vehicles are 2500HD’s, which is not true.
Now I agree, people using the one on the left specifically as a daily driver is actually overkill and are not using it for what it’s supposed to be used for. The one on the left is a 2500HD. They are SUPPOSED to be used for hauling and carrying equipment. The crew cab is meant to also transport the crew that is for said equipment.
The one the right is specifically meant what appears to be lighter duty use and hauling. I agree that people should use the right tool for the job. I find the one on the right to be very practical. But for the sake of this post as a means to compare Japanese craftsman vehicles to American.
You should actually show something actually comparable. Like a ford ranger with a standard cab. Which might be about the same size and power. Maybe even the same bed size. Not something that has HD (Heavy duty) in its name.
The only places I’ve seen trucks like the 2500HD are north America, Australia and Thailand. They usually have only one, or rarely two people people in them. They never have a significant load in the bed. Everywhere else uses vans and light trucks and gets along just fine…
Yea these vehicles are more prominent in North America. Again, people don’t always use them as they are intended.
It seems like your implying there is no need for a 2500HD whatsoever and that everything can be handled with a light duty vehicle. If not, then I’m not exactly sure what point your trying to make. People who use these vehicles with there intended purpose are going to be seen in use with their intended purpose.
Also keep in mind that just because YOU don’t see one with a load, doesn’t mean the owner doesn’t have a good reason for having one. If a light duty van or truck is getting along just fine. It’s probably being used for light duty tasks. But if you use a light duty to haul say a fully loaded 3 car trailer or move large farm equipment, your going to completely ruin the vehicle.
My point was that they completely absent from most countries. My hypothesis being that if there was a common task these vehicles were particularly suited to they would be more ubiquitous. I can’t help but think their success is due to marketing and masculine appeal rather than practicality.
What really annoys me are the pavement princesses - the giant pickups with the lift kits & such, that obviously haven’t ever been driven off of pavement. Bonus if it’s a coal-roller.
Removed by mod
You are correct, however most people – around here at least, buy them because “big truck go vroom” and some sort of macho complex. You can tell who has a truck for work and who has a truck for looks by how they keep their trucks.
I fvcking love kei trucks but one counter point - a lot of US is shitty rural roads at 50-60 mph (80-95kmh) plus freeways at even higher speeds. Kei trucks are more of a city thing and just wouldn’t fare well here. They are however very popular on university campuses.
The Japanese one would be fun for use in New York City. LOL. Easy parking, easy to navigate double-parked clowns. It just needs a bed cover to lock down anything purchased.
I don’t understand pick up trucks, unless you do landscaping or farming. In a van your shit won’t get stolen as easily.
Kei trucks due have the issue of not being great to actual hall things in the mountainous areas (a tradeoff of the small engine). They make a non-kei version that has a bigger engine for situations like that.
That being said, I think if roads and such were bigger here (Japan), we’d definitely seem more American-style vehicles. Miyazaki (Ghibli) had lots of environmental themes in his works and it wasn’t because people were doing a great job of taking care of the environment. I have seen American trucks driving around Tokyo (which is silly because they can’t even fit down some streets) as well as sports cars and even hummers. Yeah, some are driven by foreigners, but there are still plenty of Japanese who import and drive US vehicles. The second biggest thing stopping that is the cost of getting it over here, inspected, registered, etc. Some humans just want those and want to show off their status and Japanese people are just people, after all (as much as the internet loves to pretend otherwise).
Anything American should be avoided. Their food is full of sugar, cars are big and useless and internet companies always try to screw their users.
I am an american that fled the country and I can confirm.
capitalism is the problem
unregulated capitalism to be specific
lol true
Since it’s become legal to import these Kei trucks and vans, I’ve been loving the pictures of them all over the place. I have no need to haul cargo around, but I’d definitely love one of these things if I did in the future. I just don’t like that you’re only allowed to buy 20-year-old vehicles like this due to import laws.
Who benefits from keeping these trucks out of american makets?
a) the consumers
b) existing auto manufacturers
Who chooses to keep these trucks out of american markets?
a) the consumers
b) the governments/lawmakers
Edit amwrican not western.
Uh, mate, we see these all the time. Maybe you need to redefine your idea of “western”?
How do american consumers keep trucks like this out?
I mean by not buying the imports, but at the same time it’s hard to ignore the impact of not having them visible/available for purchase, decades of cultural engineering related to the auto industry here, etc.
Not sure they belong on this list next to entities that actively craft market conditions to benefit american auto makers (and themselves) financially.
I miss mini-trucks badly and wish there was an American market for them.
Or even what used to be regular size would be fine. My work just got a behemoth and it’s technically a “small”. I have to literally climb in by jumping to catch the roof (no handle on the basic model) and doing part of a pull-up. I’m short but not a little person.
It’s not about consumer markets really. The CAFE emissions regulations essentially allow vehicles with larger dimensions to get lower mileage. So instead of the regulations ostensibly intended to lower emissions forcing better mileage, manufacturers just make bigger cars with the same or worse mileage than before. I used to have an S10 that got almost 20mpg, could park anywhere, could haul full sheets of plywood, and was surprisingly capable of road (came with the ZR2 package).
People still want this, they just aren’t built because of asinine laws that get created through massive amounts of lobbying.
Neat!
Probably one of the reasons SUVs are so popular, fold back seats down and tons of unobstructed space.
You can blame the chicken tax for why we don’t get light duty trucks imported during their normal production runs.
My mom is disabled and uses a power chair (that does not fold. Medicare won’t pay for sensible things like that). Our choices were saving up to buy a wheelchair van, which is so far outside of our means that it may as well cost a million dollars, or buy a pick up truck and a set of ramps. We searched for months and months for anything small, and could not find it. Eventually went with a Nissan frontier, a 2012, so the larger model. I’d kill for one of these little things. Would be perfect for us.
There’s one guy around town I see sometimes who has some sort of thing that goes on the hitch receiver of his minivan. If I see him around I might be able to ask him where he got that if I remember to. Saw him use it and it too was a non-folding power chair. He pulled up to it with the power chair, pulled ramps down, drove up onto it, pulled himself to his feet using the rear windshield wiper, stowed the ramps and leaned against the van to get to the driver’s door. I’m guessing he has some sort of spinal injury.
I bet a micro van like a Delica or Sambar would fit your needs pretty well. Compact, but large enough to fit like 8 people total and the seats are fully removable so you could totally fit a wheelchair in there. Seen people fit a whole motorcycle in them before.
Willing to bet right is owned by a true worker doing real work and left is some trumpet who uses that ugly tank to drive to Walmart to buy toilet paper.
Based on what I have seen at construction sites in Asia and the US you are correct.
Most construction workers don’t actually need to move all that much stuff so they tend towards regular vehicles or at most vans or small pickups. Raw material is delivered on semis. Every time I have known someone who owns a vehicle like that they could manage with a sedan. When I go out to a site my gear weights about as much as I do and it’s with two techs in an economy car.
Best example was one place I was at had these fake union jobs. One guy’s whole job was to babysit a machine. He drove one of those. Lazy mofo. Never packed lunch, wouldn’t sweep up his “workspace”, his entire day was on his phone.
One of the electricians in my town has a minivan and I’ve seen him use it to bring an entire 5x14 enclosed trailer full of gear to a jobsite a few times.
I am trying to think and the only construction worker I have ever known to have one of those oversized trucks was a welder. So about 1 out of like a 100. And it was constantly having issues.
Most of them have those job trailers you described when they need to move and secure a bunch of stuff at site. Safer anyway for an electrician since they got those wire spools.
The electrician I’m talking about also has a work area in the front (side closest to the vehicle) which has a workbench and a charging port for a laptop. Actually works very well for him because he can unbox panel and meter boxes and prep them right there without having to make a mess in a client’s house. Probably better than an oversized truck.
I also like the idea of trailers because if you haul something which breaks or damages the trailer, it’s probably cheaper to fix/replace the trailer than a truck. Maybe just me though.
95% of the craftsmen I know have panel vans. Easier to both organize and secure tools and materials, more overall room.
Ours are utes. Either road versions or 4×4 versions. American trucks sell here but they’re seen as a joke in both capability and practicality, so it’s assumed the owner is very insecure about something or not very intelligent. As a result, they’re very rare.
I lived in (and now commute through) a neighborhood of older houses, and higher incomes, so I see a lot of contractor vehicles. It seems like it breaks down as landscapers and lawn services use the pickup trucks; trades companies (plumbers, electricians, HVAC, carpenters, painters, etc.) use vans or box trucks; and the independent guys tend to use Dodge Caravans. Nearby, the university uses fleets of kei trucks (the low-speed versions because “freedom”), Ford Model E vans, and Caravans. I think the landscaping crew has pickups.
There are an increasing number of company pickup trucks, but most of them appear to be pavement princesses, used only for their usual function: transporting egos, not equipment.
Landscaping crews tend to pull trailers though. I imagine that’s why.
It’s also residential. On big commercial and industrial construction sites it’s almost all big but fully functional trucks for exactly the reason you mention; they have to be able to haul trailers and heavy equipment --like generators, water buffalos, sand-blasters and the like-- over unpaved rubble or dirt.
But those are almost all company vehicles in any case.
Until you have an odd size item like a door in frame. Or need to move something like a 1 man post lift. And since you know you won’t be cleaning it out as often so your always going to have extra crap your hauling for no reason. I’m just going off every pro that has shown up for work at my job sites in a van.
I had a 1 ton Ford van for 12 years and I could haul a pallet of flooring or 20 sheets of drywall inside it, as well as lumber 12 feet or shorter. Anything more bulky than what fits inside a van like that would have difficulty fitting inside a 6.5 foot truck bed without a rats nest of ratchet straps and hanging way over the tailgate.
You have the right of it. If it won’t fit in the van, you hook up a trailer. The cost of the van and trailer combined is still a sight less than these living rooms on wheels.
Aren’t the vans we’re discussing here just as big (or even bigger if you consider the height) as the truck? It’s a truck frame with a big enclosed box on top
Yes, but full-size vans aren’t a popular vehicle outside of passenger and tradesmen applications, unlike pickup trucks. I was only pointing out that North Americans apparently prefer to have a passenger vehicle where 40-50% of the wheelbase is unused useless space.
Some are, and yet they still have better visibility and lower center of gravity and fuel economy etc.
Trucks seem to be optimized for niche use but somehow managed to end up being the default for all kinds of uses where other vehicles would be better.
Hey! I live in Korea. These things are ubiquitous. They are colloquially called “Bongos” as that was the name of an older, popular model. There are more and more electric ones on the road these days, too.
Unfortunately, you can find a few of the monstrosities on the left here these days, too, but at least very few. They’ve got nowhere to park them here. Haha!
Anyone drive one of these in Canada during the winter?
Ok that’s interesting. Now I’m wondering how the transmission will hold up to that kind of driving (I can google that one).
Canada winters are overblown. Unless you’re literarily in the middle of a massive snow storm, the roads will be clean and reasonable. None of these f150 are bought for their winter dominance. In fact I’ve seen more of them in ditches than regular cars.
Really wish I could get my hands on one of these. The import process is so complicated it makes it barely cheaper than a domestic used truck.
It’s probably model dependent, but the one I drove around for my job in Japan had zero leg room. My knees were resting on the dash as the passenger with the seat all the way back.
Is this because it’s made to fit the average Japanese adult or is it just that small
So it’s still cheaper than a domestic used truck?
With a bunch of headache and work to do the paperwork, sure. Depends on what your time is worth.
Plus can’t imagine it’s cheap to work on a car that had to be fully imported by yourself. A car sold here likely has more readily available parts.
One is made to show how much of an egoist you are, and the other is made to do the job. I really don’t get the gigantomax trucks, and never will
Yep. I’m an American tradesman and the trucks that the guys drive are way too beefy for what they actually do.
I’ve gotten by with small Toyota trucks, and rav 4s…much to the chagrin of the good old boys. Should have seen their face when I rolled up in a prius…till I tell em I get 50 mpg easy.
I would love a small little truck like this one in the photo.
Also spent a lot of time in the industry (drywall, lath, and plaster). Key cars top out somewhere around 750 pounds of capacity, and I could early blow through that with brining materials to a job site, or hauling stuff to the dump.
Key cars are cool, but you also need other solutions in place for materials delivery and hauling. American trucks are kind of a one size fits all approach to construction. Your truck for heavy hauling is also the truck you use for light hauling.
Most Kei trucks do top out around 750lbs, but I know for a fact that there are models of Honda Acty that have a rated bed load around 1500lbs and a rated towing capacity around 2200lbs
TIL. That’s pretty cool.
Although the payload capacity of an American truck is often double that. It’s pretty easy to hit 1500lbs with 10 bags of cement, a person, and some gear. I’m assuming Japan has other solutions for hauling that are pretty common. I’m guessing there are some pretty big differences in their construction workflows and logistics that make key cars practical.
IMHO, contractor’s work trucks aren’t the problem is the US. The bigger problem is that most of those vehicles are sold to private citizens who think the space is convenient for an occasional camping trip or an epic Costco run.
I don’t know about Japan but here in Europe I just see tradesmen, needing large quantities, getting their materials delivered on a pallet from a semi-trailer.
Most use vans though for carrying their equipment, since you usually don’t want your gear sitting outside, like it would on a pickup truck.
The most handy truck I had doing construction when I was a kid was out Mazda B2200 with the Perkins diesel. It’d go forever on no fuel and was perfect for grabbing a few tools for a quick run to a job site.
You can get one. They get imported. Search for Japanese car imports to your local area. Search for Kei Truck and you’ll find em. You can get an awd turbo diesel for around 8-10k
Yea I never actually looked into it, i alwats figured the import would be expensive. Right now my situation is a little…um…fkd up… but when I have enough to invest in another vehicle, i will def consider it. I would love one. And would be perfect for my uses. I’m sure I’d get labeled a humorous title by the lovely gentlemen on the job sites. I live in a rural area. And the boys love their big trucks. And guns. And a whole manner of things.
