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An idling gas engine may be annoyingly loud, but that’s the price you pay for having WAY less torque available at a standstill.

  • BarqsHasBite@lemmy.world
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    1 month ago

    The motors have never been the problem, it’s always been the battery. See train engines, they are a diesel generator with electric motors.

    This is where history pisses me off. We should have been headlong into battery research after the oil embargoes. Could have been 40 years faster.

    • Everythingispenguins@lemmy.world
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      1 month ago

      I think people forget that petroleum is condensed and distilled solar energy. One gallon of gasoline is the results of years of solar energy.

      Spelling

        • cron@feddit.de
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          1 month ago

          Renewable fuels exist and are used today, but the efficiency and pollution aspects still apply.

          • Revan343@lemmy.ca
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            1 month ago

            If you’re making your diesel from CO2 pulled from the air, pollution aspects don’t really apply (at least, CO2 emission issues don’t, there’s still NOx, but that’s what cat piss is for).

            Problem is, converting atmospheric CO2 back into fuel makes the efficiency issue drastically worse. Maybe with enough solar panels and windmills, and use the Fischer–Tropsch process with the excess energy that the grid isn’t consuming.

            Of course, that would be for mobile fuel, if solar plants were going to do anything like that for later use generating electricity during peaks, making diesel is dumb; you’d want to use hydrogen or ammonia for in-place energy storage.

            • cron@feddit.de
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              1 month ago

              I was thinking about fuels like HVO. They work well, but have their own ecological implications.

              • Revan343@lemmy.ca
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                30 days ago

                Ah. I’m generally skeptical of any plant-based ‘green fuel’ because they generally take up agricultural capacity that would otherwise be producing food

        • rmuk@feddit.uk
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          1 month ago

          No, it’s renewable. But… not in any practical timeframe.

          • Delta_V@lemmy.world
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            1 month ago

            Not really. Its trees from a time before micro organisms evolved the ability to eat dead trees. These days, the solar energy collected by trees will get used to power the metabolisms of fungi before those trees can get buried and eventually become new coal & petroleum.

            I suppose an impact from a sufficiently large asteroid could turn the entire crust of the planet into magma, sterilizing it and therefore opening the possibility that new oil might be created some day.

            • AEsheron@lemmy.world
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              1 month ago

              IIRC it is actually mostly from algea. A small amount from some fern-like plants. By the time trees existed, they were being broken down by bacteria.

          • I<3HEATPUMPS@lemmy.one
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            1 month ago

            I think I read somewhere that oil will not be produced anymore because now bacteria can break down that biomass that it previously didn’t. Hence, non-renewable even on long timescales.

          • AeonFelis@lemmy.world
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            1 month ago

            Only if we bring back the dinosaurs. There are six movies (and counting!) explaining why this is not a good idea.

        • RogueBanana
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          1 month ago

          Energy density is a huge advantage which most people find hard to give up especially when the biggest problem that we face is invisible to most people. We can’t fix a problem if we ignore the cause.

          • AVincentInSpace@pawb.social
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            1 month ago

            A lot of people have been having their cake days recently. Guess it’s the first anniversary of the Reddit exodus.

      • spujb@lemmy.cafe
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        1 month ago

        oops you posted irrelevant pedantics that verge on misinformation 😧

        sure it’s distilled solar energy that cannot be renewed. relevant language highligted. no one “forgets,” this. literally no one. it’s just not relevant to a timespan less than millions of years. cheers! ☀️

          • spujb@lemmy.cafe
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            1 month ago

            v true but i also dislike how biofuels get smorked into yet more CO2 which is kind of a problem rn

            • grue@lemmy.world
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              1 month ago

              Biofuels are carbon-neutral. They release CO2 when burned, but it doesn’t matter because that same CO2 had recently been sucked out of the atmosphere by the plant they came from.

              • spujb@lemmy.cafe
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                1 month ago

                In theory true. In reality not true.

                While U.S. biofuel use rose from 0.37 to 1.34 EJ/yr over this period, additional carbon uptake on cropland was enough to offset only 37 % of the biofuel-related biogenic CO2emissions. This result falsifies the assumption of a full offset made by LCA and other GHG accounting methods that assume biofuel carbon neutrality. Once estimates from the literature for process emissions and displacement effects including land-use change are considered, the conclusion is that U.S. biofuel use to date is associated with a net increase rather than a net decrease in CO2emissions. study

                Not passing judgement on anything, just putting the facts out there that I happen to know :) Biofuel may or may not be a good tool to move toward more sustainability, and it’s certainly better than petrol.

                • grue@lemmy.world
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                  1 month ago

                  My biofuel of choice is biodiesel produced from byproducts of chicken rendering that would otherwise become waste/pollution anyway. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

                  The way I see it, we should electrify all the things that can be (urban driving, both freight and passenger trains, etc.), maximize the use of those things (e.g. by shifting long-haul freight away from trucking and back towards rail, and shifting airline travel to high-speed rail), and then use biofuels for the relatively-niche stuff that’s left instead of spending excessive effort trying to get electric to cover 100% of cases.

        • Everythingispenguins@lemmy.world
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          1 month ago

          Um piss off. It is not irrelevant or misinformation. That is exactly what petroleum is.

          You clearly can’t understand a factual statement from an opinion I never said it was good I never said it was bad I just said it was. If you’d bother to take a moment to think about it. You would realize that I was referring to the fact that petroleum is extremely energy dense. For the very reason I stated. That is fundamentally why petroleum has become a successful energy source and why it’s been so difficult to replace.

          You’re welcome to point out where I said it was renewable. I think you’re going to have a difficult time finding that statement.

          As for being a pedantic ass that’s clearly your territory. A pedantic ass that it likes to put words in other people’s mouths.

    • stoy
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      1 month ago

      I hope you are not talking about battery locomotives.

      With overhead wires the train has a practically unlimited battery capacity.

      • EarMaster@lemmy.world
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        1 month ago

        There are use cases for battery trains. In remote, mountainous locations where the cost for electrifying a track is very high it is not uncommon to use electric trains with batteries. Here in Germany we have several regions where diesel trains have been replaced by them.

    • BastingChemina@slrpnk.net
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      1 month ago

      Oil is honestly an amazing product, chemistry wise there is so much we can do with it and energy wise it’s a extremely concentrated and easily transported form of energy.

      Energy wise one liter of oil is equivalent to 10 person working for a day !

      I repeat, using one liter of oil is like having 10 “slaves” working for us for a day.

      Its easy to see why oil became the base of our modern civilization, and easy to see why we don’t manage to stop using it even though it’s destroying us.

      Source - How much of a slave owner am I ?

    • ColeSloth@discuss.tchncs.de
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      1 month ago

      Not really. Battery tech has always been advancing. Even today electric vehicles have barely come up with anything new, battery wise. Everyone wants something better than lithium base. No one can get anything to market.

      • BarqsHasBite@lemmy.world
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        1 month ago

        It advanced at a glacier pace because there was no massive driving force. It only kicked off a bit with cell phones and then in any substantial way with laptops. (Yes, batteries existed before that for different things, but there was no massive driving force.) Now imagine what would have happened if we funded it starting in the 1970s.

        • ColeSloth@discuss.tchncs.de
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          30 days ago

          Yes, but no one’s even glancing at it for use in vehicles. The one that’s finally getting into production is 70wh/Kg. Not nearly energy dense enough yet for ev’s. Lithium batteries are closer to 300wh/Kg. In other words, they take up 1/4th the space and weight. EV’s are already a thousand pounds heavier than non ev’s and that’s already causing extra tire pollution issues and having to overbuild suspension parts and bearings. Making them another 3,000 pounds heavier than that is just out of the question. Let alone making the space to fit the battery.

          Sodium is going to change the world with its power storage capabilities connected to solar. Anyone on like 75% of the planet could 100% live off the electric grid problem free with enough solar panels and a big sodium storage battery.

          • Syrc@lemmy.world
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            30 days ago

            Wasn’t aware that EVs were already that heavy. Then yeah, I guess that’s definitely not feasible, at least not at the moment.

            • ColeSloth@discuss.tchncs.de
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              30 days ago

              Yep. A size of vehicle wise comparison would be that a tesla model s sedan weighs around 4,600 pounds. A toyota Corolla weighs around 1,600 pounds less at around 3,000 pounds.

              Even the newest and most powerful mass produced American made car ever, the “C8 Corvette Z06” with its big V8 gas engine with 670 horsepower weighs in at around 3,650 pounds.

    • Swedneck@discuss.tchncs.de
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      27 days ago

      pretty sure most trains are powered by either overhead wires or third rails? considering that urban rail systems are always electrified and those have A LOT of trains.

        • Swedneck@discuss.tchncs.de
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          25 days ago

          okay? i’m talking about the world though, so typical for people to just assume america is all that matters lmao

          • DogWater@lemmy.world
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            25 days ago

            The point is about utilization of electric motors, if it happens anywhere on earth it’s possible. You’re trying to insinuate that it isn’t true. And it is. Being American has nothing to do with it you dunce

    • Veidenbaums@lemmy.ml
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      1 month ago

      Exactly this. Imagine if gas powered motor could recharge in mere 12 hours and run for up to half the distance. Ah, that would be the dream.

      And if you and 5 of your neighbors decide to refuel at the same time during peak hours you have a real chance of overloading your neighborhood grid. And your fuel tank is dead in 5 years, replacing which is more than half of your used cars cost.

      Everything non-portable uses electric motors from the time the first wire was invented.

  • blady_blah@lemmy.world
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    1 month ago

    “On the other hand gas has a much higher energy density than batteries and a much faster refuel rate.”

    • surewhynotlem@lemmy.world
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      1 month ago

      It’s exactly this. Convenience. We’ve become accustomed to how convenient it is and don’t want to be put out.

      On the other hand, it’s super convenient to never go to a gas station again, and to wake up to a full tank. So if you drive less than 60 miles a day, and have acess to another car for long trips, an electric is even more convenient.

      • SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca
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        1 month ago

        That’s basically 90% of every car owner.

        It’s one of those things where people feel like they’re going to take a road trip every weekend, but most people are just using their car to commute to and from work and maybe take one or two longer trips per year. The time saved by not having to stop at a gas station throughout the the year is less than the additional time taken at a fast charging station for the rare road trip.

        • jballs@sh.itjust.works
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          1 month ago

          Unfortunately, people tend to buy vehicles to best accomplish 1% of their driving. I live in the suburbs and almost every house has a giant pickup parked in front. Not because people are in the construction business and need to haul a lot of stuff, but because once a year they might go to Home Depot and it feels good to put their two bags of mulch in the back.

          • Fondots@lemmy.world
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            1 month ago

            Part of the problem is not having the money or space for an extra vehicle.

            I drive an SUV, I don’t particularly like driving an SUV, I get a lot of use out of having a larger vehicle, I’m an avid DIYer who makes frequent trips to the hardware store to pick up lumber and such, I have a lot of outdoor hobbies and usually end up being the one who drives so I’m carrying gear for several people, I don’t exactly go off roading, but those hobbies sometimes take me on some poorly maintained, deeply rutted, muddy roads and 4wd has gotten me out of some jams, I occasionally drive onto the beach to go fishing, usually find myself towing a small trailer a couple times a year, and I’m an essential employee that lives in an area that gets snow with a weird schedule that usually has me commuting before the snow plows have gotten through everywhere.

            But even though I probably get more actual use out of an SUV than most people, most often I’m still only driving about 20 miles or less a day, on paved roads, in weather that doesn’t require anything more than working headlights, wipers, and tires that aren’t totally bald.

            If I had the budget and parking space I’d probably have the cheapest base model EV I could find for most of my commuting and small errands and save the SUV for my days off and when it snows. That’s not the case though.

              • Fondots@lemmy.world
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                29 days ago

                I am so ready to hop on the PHEV or even full electric bandwagon.

                I do have 2 major hurdles though.

                First is there aren’t a lot of vehicles out there, at an affordable price point for me that quite fit my needs. I’ve pretty much dialed in that a midsized SUV or small pickup truck is just right for me. There’s some exciting options coming down the pipeline, but none that are out there have quite hit the sweet spot for me yet. (I am champing at the bit for Ford to release a PHEV AWD maverick with a midgate to make up for that short bed. That’s basically my ideal vehicle, I’d also be stoked for Toyota to do a plug in 4runner, my current car is a 4runner and I like it a lot, if either of those happen before I’m ready for my next car theres a good chance that’s what I’m getting)

                Second is charging, I live in a townhome with no garage or driveway, so if I want to charge at home I’m pretty much stuck running about a 30ft extension cord across my front lawn and sidewalk. That’s less than ideal, and my HOA hasn’t exactly been friendly to others in my neighborhood who have gone electric who have done that. I can probably work around that though, the way my schedule works, unless I go in for overtime I usually don’t work more than 3 days in a row, so if battery-only range gets a little better for PHEVs (which hopefully they will by the time I’m able to budget for a new car in a few years) I can probably do most of my commuting on one charge and find an hour or two on my days off to go somewhere with a fast charger.

                In the meantime, I just try to get my wife to do as much of the driving as possible when we’re both off since she has a prius, our schedules don’t always align, but when they do I only drive if we need my bigger car for something.

                It’s a long way off, but we also fantasize about the possibilities of self-driving cars someday when all of the problems are worked out. Since we have different schedules (she works a regular 9-5, I work 3pm-3am on a 2-2-3 schedule,) we could have one self driving car for most of our commuting and errands, it could take her to work, come home and take me to work, pick her up and take her home, and pick me up at the end of my shift, and go charge itself in-between.

          • zeekaran@sopuli.xyz
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            29 days ago

            If they use a camper or heavy trailer even four times per year, fine whatever keep your truck. The other millions of Americans should’ve just rented a vehicle when they needed it, and it would’ve been far cheaper and more convenient to have their daily driver as a regular sized sedan.

          • minibyte@sh.itjust.works
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            29 days ago

            Volt, nice choice. I wish there were more plug-in hybrids to choose from. Logically 50 miles on battery would suffice for most of my trips.

            • zeekaran@sopuli.xyz
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              29 days ago

              PHEV should’ve been the norm with ICE as a rare, overly expensive option. Since 2014 or earlier.

          • piecat@lemmy.world
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            1 month ago

            The last time I heard someone say that, they were taking about bidets, and it was life changing.

      • mortalic@lemmy.world
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        1 month ago

        Or just use the clothes dryer circuit… Charge the car overnight… Get all the range.