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cross-posted from: https://lemmy.ml/post/21841560
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also, don’t forget, pre-covid: “you should have enough money set aside in savings to live without income for SIX MONTHS!!!”
covid lockdowns: “our $ multibillion corporation is going to DIE if we don’t end the lockdowns RIGHT NOW!!!”
While at the same time reporting record profits…
As soon as they realized we were bored they pounced.
Related: 75% of Americans don’t have enough money in savings to cover their bills for six months. That’s why a recession–which leads to a shrinking number of jobs and decreased consumer demand–is such a huge, dramatic siren for the fed and government. A recession for a nation where a large majority are basically flying without a safety net has an even bigger effect on the recession feedback cycle.
In general our entire economy right now has the knob labeled “high-risk/high-reward” turned to 11. With that many people only a few months from not being able to pay car loans, rent, mortgage, and all their other bills, with huge consumer debt, with car loan defaults already rising, and, therefore, only an economic downturn away from not having the means to maintain robust consumer economy, things would go south in the US very fast and with increasing velocity.
They gave all the power to those with money and they know, deep down, that those people are nasty and horrible. They’re afraid of them and so they give them tax breaks and bailouts like one would give sacrifices to eldritch god in the hopes they don’t get punished for existing.
They aren’t afraid of their neighbour, though. Why do you think all conservative humour punches down? They’re all pant-shitting coward suck-ups.
Nobody said shit about PPP loans either.
Guess I shouldn’t have been an impressionable teenager that believed adults when I was told I’d work at McDonald’s forever if I didn’t take the loan. Egg on my face, haha.
Some of those people ended up working at McDonald’s anyway, and then had the audacity to want a livable wage… But that would raise prices… But somehow the prices went up anyways… 🤷
I don’t really remember people calling for the bank bailout
Yeah I’m pretty salty about the bank bailouts.
Let them die. If you don’t let businesses occasionally fail then you don’t have capitalism. You have oligarchical socialism.
Yeah it’s a problem for the million or so employees. Bail them out. Bail out the people actually doing the work. Bail out the fucking victims.
Student loan forgiveness is fine, whatever. I’d love to have mine wiped out don’t get me wrong, but Jesus it’s fucking pointless unless you also change the rules and reform the industry.
All bailed out companies should be required to turn into worker cooperatives
Not arguing, I like the idea. But would the people in power just ensure the business failed after that so they could rebuild their non employee owned business thus fucking over the employees even more?
Stay salty. It was a rip off.
The people that have preached free market and competition showed you who they are.
Here’s a thought excersise that I hope you feel free to take as rhetorically as you wish:
Can you think of a time when it was “real” capitalism ^^^^tm and not crony capitalism/ forgiving socialism for the rich and robust free market capitalism for the poor?
Personally, I can’t and I don’t think anyone can name a time that that it was, that would stand up to any scrutiny.
If there was never a time that it could have existed, then It was always a lie.
Just to be clear in right behind you 99%. I may be wrong but feel that if you were to look into that area, you would likely come to the same conclusion as me.
Yeah, as much as these anti-student-loan-relief assholes do that’s infuriating and ridiculous, broadly speaking, the ones I’ve encountered have also taken a dim view of any and every bailout as well.
There’s plenty of ways to fairly criticize their position, inconsistency doesn’t seem to be among them.
The bailouts should have taken the form of an injection into the FDIC to bail out the account holders after the banks closed their doors.
That neighbour shouldn’t have spent all that money on avocado toast!
Does this person not remember that literally everyone was upset about bailing the banks and auto industry out??? Like why are we pretending that those were popular decisions, and that the population is to blame?
Yeah but no one opposed the other bailouts as hard as they did for students.
deleted by creator
250 000$ what the fuck
But now things have changed… the banks will be a “bail in”
In all fairness though, those industry bailouts were generally recovered
Early estimates for the bailout’s risk cost were as much as $700 billion; however, TARP recovered $441.7 billion from $426.4 billion invested, earning a $15.3 billion profit (an annualized rate of return of 0.6%), which may have been a loss when adjusted for inflation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_Economic_Stabilization_Act_of_2008
Ok, that last part about still being a net loss after inflation is fair, but we’re talking about a possible rounding error here, not a 12-figure loss for the Treasury.
It should be considered that America is investing in its infrastructure by making sure that its educated population of professionals and pre-professionals is able to find suitable work and stable living conditions debt-free. Instead of that, we have a severe lack of foundational jobs for the educated (unless you’re an overpaid nurse or engineer that will always be in demand), exacerbated cost of living, and foreign students taking away competitive education seats from American students. Everything has been one big sellout to the wealthy, domestic or otherwise, while average Americans and their students suffer. Student debt forgiveness isn’t a metric designed to be measured by a sum of money arbitrarily gained in return after investing, it’s an investment in the wellbeing of its society and its people.
No arguments there… But the 2008 bailouts are severely misunderstood.
Also auto industry and farmer bailouts seems like a sensible thing considering how many jobs are tied there. Dunno if this sub would have preferred them to go under and those people be out of job, dunno.
Food will always be in demand, so a slight change in supply can have a huge impact on price. Imagine a ton of farmers going under and far less interested in taking over producing the crops/livestock that were ending up in our stores. Even if you don’t work in agriculture or food processing or whatever, you’d still be severely affected.
Student loans shouldn’t be guaranteed by the government.
I don’t know why you’re getting down voted, I completely agree, student loans shouldn’t be a thing, we should provide education to those who want it for free, like the rest of the civilized world.
He’s not saying that because he’s advocating for it to be free…
I know but they weren’t specific enough, so it could be interpreted as what they are against 😂
Forever the optimist!
I hope so
You are partially right, there should not be student loans. Education should be free for the benefit of society.
The government has an economic interest in ensuring we have educated workers.
Government backed student loans are a scheme to indebt eighteen year olds before they start their lives. Not everyone needs to go to college. Trades have a better ROI for the average person nowadays. We’re obsessed with college in the states for some reason.
And if they were private loans, they would be different how?
More often than not the loans wouldn’t be granted because there wouldn’t be any collateral and the student could simply declare bankruptcy and get rid of the debt. College would have to be cheaper so people could actually afford it.
Except student loans, public or private, cannot be discharged by bankruptcy specifically so people can’t do what you suggest.
I try and remain intellectually consistent.
I’m opposed to bailing out banks.
I’m opposed to bailing out any industry not just the auto industry
I’m opposed to bailing out farmers (and I currently live amongst corn fields).
And, I’m opposed to too big to fail.
I’m also opposed to student loan forgiveness.
I also try to remain intellectually consistent:
- people matter
- corporations aren’t people
The people in them should be liable for their criminal decisions though.
corporations aren’t people
Erm, yeah, about that
It’s the darndest thing
University costs are also one of the few things that have far out paced inflation, and wages for decades. It’s not about getting handouts, it’s about not saddling an entire generation with debt they never should have had in the first place.
p.s., it’s not “intellectual” to oppose this. You’re just an ass.
Starting at the bottom…
I’m curious that it makes me an ass to believe that no matter who your are, you should pay your debts. That goes for banks, industries, farmers, and students.
As I mentioned in another comment. I do believe the law needs to be changed to make student loans dischargeable in a bankruptcy.
The rest of your comment will take a lengthy reply, so I hope you stick around.
You are correct that education has far outpaced the rest of the economy when it comes to inflation. I believe there are two factors at work there.
First, we have glorified education at the expense of the trades. I grew up in the 70s and the roots of that were already beginning to take hold. The adults around me praised and respected (though that’s not quite the right word) the “educated”. They would say things like “if you want to amount to anything you need a college education!” While at the same time complaining about what the plumber, or electrician, or mechanic charged them.
When I went to high school I went to a school that had been “boys only” (a bad thing) until shortly before I started in 1977. They taught the trades. In fact I had to take eight introductory courses in various trades my Freshman and Sophomore years (a very good thing).
But educators bit on the whole “if you don’t go to college, you will suck as a human being” thinking. Parents of course want what’s best for their children, so they pushed their kids into colleges. Many of those kids would have been far happier elsewhere.
As an aside, my high school still exists, but I don’t think you’ll learn the trades there anymore (I may be won’t about that as I haven’t paid attention in many years, but I think I’m on pretty solid ground with my claim.)
More customers competing for limited resources raises prices. That said, it’s not the main culprit.
The main culprit is the fact that there is no means-testing for student loans. Need a loan to go to school? Here’s a check.
There was no financial pressure for universities to constrain costs. They knew that lenders would pay for someone’s schooling regardless of cost, because those lenders had absolutely no risk!
This created a horrible downward spiral. Too many highly educated individuals competing for too few jobs has created a morass that will take generations at least to resolve.
We have too many highly educated folk, and too few folk willing to do manual labor in the trades. I can’t count the number of trades people who have told me that they just can’t find good help!
Of course too few people working in the trades has created another sort of inflation. That in turn impacts all of society.
no matter who your are, you should pay your debts.
Do you honestly believe no debts are predatory?
Of course some are. Hell I’m married to a Soldier and I see predators preying on young Soldiers all the time. “Use your enlistment bonus to buy this cool Challenger! You’ll only be paying 20%!” (I didn’t believe those who take these loans should have them forgiven either).
I’m unsure that student loans can be placed in that category. Perhaps if you got a student loan for Trump University (or any other for-profit University) I’d consider it predatory. But most people know full well what they’re doing when they choose to go to university, and choose to borrow to do so.
As I said in the post that you responded to, I think making the debt dischargeable in a bankruptcy would make lenders far more cautious about who they make a student loan to, and that would start solving the problem as university’s would actually have some pressure on the price of the education they would like to sell you.
But as you pointed out above, children were (and are) being pushed into colleges whether it’s right for them or not. Hugh schools are measured by college admissions rates of their students, and so are pushing kids into this debt without any real voice on the other side telling the students they have other options.
Colleges are pushing new students towards financial aid without spelling out the true costs of those loans. All of this to people who often have almost no financial literacy or experience to understand the impacts. They are exactly like the soldiers you just mentioned. So by all means student debt is predatory.
Its clear you are not open to considering some debts as beneficial to discharge, so I won’t waste the time explaining the vast net benefits of infusing our younger and middle aged generation with cash flow that they would by every measure largely reinvest in their communities, making everyone better off. But can we at least agree that student debt is at least as predatory as shitty car loans to young enlisted recruits near bases?
So I personally think that a huge part of there not being anyone available for the trades was the 2008 recession.
I started college in 2002, while working full time in the trades. By 2004, I’d dropped out of school. In 2007 I had a construction company, and 15 full time employees, and another 15ish part timers working for me. By May of 2008, I had to lay everyone off, and I couldn’t find any work. Of those 30ish people I had working for me, 1 is still in construction.
We did historic remodeling. These were guys that did everything from custom plaster and woodwork, to electrical and plumbing. There was no work, and we all moved to other shit. By the time work came back, it wasn’t worth going back to it.
Holy shit, that’s tragic. The loss of so much skilled labor is a huge loss in so many ways. I congratulate you on building something awesome, and I’m sorry you lost it.
What do you do now?
Windows DevOps Engineering. It’s way easier on my body, and I never have to stalk a builder to get them to pay.
I was just one tiny company in a tiny city. I’d be willing to bet that there’s a 5-10 year gap in the ages of people in the trades. There are a lot of stories like mine. People that were early to mid skill when 2008 happened and had to reskill.
Frequently, student loans were the only way to survive. We went back to school because there was no work. In my area you had to work or volunteer to stay on food stamps. The places that were approved to volunteer at were only allowing people with kids to volunteer.
I took $38,000 in student loans. I’ve paid $52,000 back on those loans. I still owe $54,000 on those loans. Both in 2002 and 2008 the mantra from the financial aid offices was “take the loans, deffer, consolidate, then deffer again, by then you’ll be making enough money to pay them.” They didn’t explain how compounding all of that interest would mean that every $1 you signed for would actually be $3 in money you have to pay back.
That’s another part I don’t think people are talking about. Frequently, all that’s being forgiven is fees and interest. No actual money is being lost, just potential money. If they retroactively set a 10% cap of profit from student loans, a huge number of people’s balances would disappear.
Thanks for taking the time to write all that. It was good to read. I’m sorry you had to deal with all that. Glad you have your feet under you.
I’m a bit appalled by the lean repayments and you’ve given me something to think about.
Thank you.
I dont quite get how you can write all that out, and even admit that student loans are predatory and then turn around and say, whelp, you signed up for these loans when you were a kid, so you should just buck up and pay them…
Because “i grew up in the 70’s” that’s why. They didn’t witness it first hand, so they don’t fully realize the extent of how bullshit it was.
The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread.
When kids are conditioned from birth to believe that the only way they’re ever going to improve their miserable lives is to go to college, and then the price of that college education is jacked up 600%, and graduation didn’t actually do much for their overall financial situation or quality of life, hell yes I think it should be cancelled. The whole thing has been an elaborate extortion racket for decades, and it’s been encouraged and backed by the government.
Corporations are allowed to discharge debt via bankruptcy. Let’s give that to students. Does that satisfy your consistency?
I think we all know who prohibited students from discharging debt via bankruptcy.
As you can see in two further posts here I did say that student loans should be dischargeable by bankruptcy.
i don’t mind it being your opinion and I agree its consistent without trying to dig in to find a gotcha, however being logistically consistent without exception does not resolve an evolving crisis that could have further, worse, knock on effects that affect even the most consistent of thought experiments.
If, in 30 years’ time, we are at a point where the education system collapses, it’ll be a lot worse than the “pain” of not being entirely consistent when reallocating government budgets.
In fact one might argue its more sensible - in many regards not just this - to maintain a flexible case-by-case policy should the need arise.
Thanks for the thoughtful comment.
Forget all the haters, I do not agree with you but can understand your viewpoint and respect it.
Thank you.
As I was thinking on this subject, I do have one significant proposal when it comes to student loan debt. It should be dischargeable under bankruptcy.
You realize the whole reason for farm subsidies is insurance, right?
Like, farmers destroying tons of good crops is bad and all…but you know what’s worse? Drought, famine, disease, or other disaster knocking out half of our crops or the infrastructure that transports them. Having a surplus is much, much, much better than not having enough.
Forgive me, but I think I need an ELI5 here please.
Friendly reminder that Joe Biden, despite being advised that he should cancel student debt under established provisions, chose to make it a brand new covid program. It was his unauthorized new covid debt cancellation program was cancelled by SCOTUS (AKA setup to fail). Biden still has the ability to cancel under the original terms his lawyers suggested. Instead he screams a legal provision be made out of thin air wasn’t respected so he is not gonna do anything except take credit for cancellations that were in effect before he was in office. You seen how he acts about Israel, you think he really fighting student debt earnestly?
It wasn’t a case of him creating a “COVID program” bound to fail. Biden used the HEROES Act—a post-9/11 law meant for emergencies—to address debt issues exacerbated by COVID. The Supreme Court’s conservative-shit-stain bloc shut him down. This wasn’t a Biden “setup.” It was an intransigent conservative court doing what they always do.
After the ruling, Biden didn’t abandon debt relief either. Instead, he did exactly what you’re implying he didn’t: he pivoted to the Higher Education Act, which allows debt cancellation but only through a lengthy rule-making process. He can’t just use the HEA to “cancel” student debt in the way he was trying originally. This route takes longer and still faces legal obstacles, as you might have noticed, but it shows he’s exploring every option available within legal limits, not just “giving up.” He’s also rolled out specific programs for groups like public service workers and adjusted repayment options to reduce debt burdens in the meantime.
Blaming Biden’s actions on lack of commitment ignores the layers of legal and rule-making shit-fuck layers at play. He’s pushing for debt relief within what’s legally possible, starting with the faster attempt that was killed by Republicans, and now a slower and less sweeping manner as required by the HEA—which continues to be contested by Republicans.
They’re cancelling debt right now! It’s income driven, so not everyone qualifies, but given the comments I read on this site, I think most people here do. Go file for relief and get it! It’s available.
Where? How? Help!
Instead he screams a legal provision be made out of thin air
Thank you for revealing what you are so I can block you
What did I reveal? And/or are you unable to withstand criticism?
You: Conservative SC shot down student debt relief
Also you: How could the democrats do this!?!?
They shot down an expansion of executive powers. You know why POTUS has almost absolute immunity? Because Obama got sued so many times for killing American Citizens abroad that SCOTUS had to make a new shield of immunity. Trump saw that and ran with it but this is not his doing, look at the precedent cases.
While nothing is perfect and could be better. Latest relief under Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF) Program brings total loan forgiveness approved by the Administration to over $175 billion for more than 4.8 million Americans. So he has done something. Idk if you expected a magic wand for everyone but something is better than nothing.
As for Israel we have a former president actively tanking any policy for a ceasefire. Who do you think if elected would be more likely to negotiate a ceasefire with Israel? Tbf America is a single policy for Israel in general that fact there is even a waver on the democrats side is amazing
Biden tried to take credit for the PSLF is bullshit. Those learned loans were guaranteed to be dismissed back during Bush.
My point is that its a Bush era program Source. Israel I am not even gonna touch ys seen them punk Biden’s redlines on tv enough
Claiming Biden did “nothing” with PSLF is way off. Under Bush, PSLF was a mess—only about 7,000 people got their loans forgiven, thanks to an insane 98% rejection rate. Since Biden took office and reformed PSLF, over a million borrowers have received forgiveness, with his administration introducing temporary waivers, fixing processing errors, and expanding eligibility to previously blocked borrowers.
You’re saying that he both should have used existing means to forgive debt, but also criticizing him for using existing means to forgive debt. The fact that he did both and basically brought PSLF back from the dead in order to help borrowers after his initial attempt failed speaks to his significant commitment to this issue, so it seems like an odd issue to bring up to try to support the case that Biden has done nothing, and it’s all theater. Tell that to the millions helped so far.
He basically picked up an old, rusty knife in the yard, hardened the metal, cleaned it, sharpened it, polished it, honed it, replaced the hilt, and put it to work slashing student loan debt. Why throw out a busted tool if it can be fixed?
Biden’s fixes also significantly overhauled and streamlined the entire process for current and future borrowers. Comparing what PSLF was under Bush to what it’s become under Biden is like night and day—Biden’s updates turned an empty promise into an actual effective tool to deal with the unsustainable student-loan burden. And that’s only to speak of what he’s done with PSLF, not all the things he’s tried, the other programs he’s implemented, and how consistent he’s been on this issue since he took office.
There would have been nobody under Bush that would have qualified for a loan forgiveness while Bush was president. It was a 10 year program. He was already well out of office before the first ones were even eligible to be dismissed.
I didn’t say the forgiveness happened under bush. The program began in 2007. Until Biden took office, there was a 98% denial rate and 7,000 borrowers had completed it. By 2023, that number increased to well over a million, partially by correcting unjustified denials and allowing for the retro-application of qualifying payments. You think there was just a coincidental 14,000% increase in PSLF loans forgiven in Biden’s first two years? Or maybe it’s related to the $175 Billion in loan forgiveness for the 4.8 Million Americans that received it? Incidentally, PSLF is less than half of the total student-debt burden eased under Biden.
Again, there’s a lot to criticize about Biden. Why you all are digging your heels in about something for which, on the whole, he’s proactively done a lot about (and with relative succes despite robust opposition), I’m not sure.
So this feels like alot of words to say he enforced existing laws from 2007, and did not in any way shape or form do what he said he would while on campaign. Did I miss anything? Oh that he could have done it the slow way, and after 3 years whats our progress? Oh he didn’t even send in the application.
Nah, he tried to do what he said he would. Several states with absolutely no fucking standing sued on behalf of companies that stated they didn’t wanna be part of the suit, and took the case to the SCOTUS, who said “oh, out of literally whole-cloth interpretations of the law that make no sense, we decide that large-scale loan forgiveness is not purview of the Department of Education, and can only be done with a law passed by Congress.” Biden could’ve, and honestly should’ve, done it anyway after the immunity ruling, and said “it’s an official act, you can’t do shit”, but saying “he didn’t even try to do anything” is disingenuous.
Again his team told him that was gonna happen if he tried to make a new executive privilege. He has never applied to do it the long way, correct? Like acting like Joe Biden wasn’t disingenuous is disingenuous, like im sure idiot lemmycrats upvote you because it might make Harris look bad, but point to something he did that wasn’t already law? Again the debt cancellation you keep parroting that he accomplished was brought to you by George W Bush in 2007.
“point to something he did that wasn’t already law”.
Why? What he did was focus on it and make it happen. Nobody gives a shit who wrote the law in.
We also know that todays republicans tried everything under the sun to stop it for nothing but corporate interests. These loans were scams and theyre being erased.
