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Just waiting for the day when someone can explain to me what makes a man a man without describing skills, qualities, and actions that anyone can do regardless of gender.
And don’t tell me it’s “have a penis”, because if that were true then effeminate men wouldn’t be insulted all the time for not being “real” men, and there wouldn’t be toxic masculinity.
A featherless biped or a miserable little pile of secrets, take your pick.
I’m a man because I say I’m a man and fuck anyone who tells me otherwise.
And that applies to anyone with any gender. Because it’s not about anyone but that person.
Otherwise
Now fuck me please
I never said I would be doing the fucking.
Gender is a social construct that is, gladly, starting to fail.
I hope that in some years people would stop refering to having any gender, and they’ll just have the social behavior they’d like best when they like it best. And will only discuss their sex when it’s medically relevant.
Sadly unlikely because it’s rooted in biological differences (mainly hormones), so on average there will be sex-based differences. I’d love it if people stopped stereotyping because of that but I doubt itll ever happen. Maybe we can at least get rid of the idea of gendered hobbies and such, but even then most people want to identify as part of a group so there will likely always be some association.
It’s less that the social construct is failing, and more that we’re finally letting it flourish.
Tying the way you present to the world to one of two options often linked to your gonads is extremely limiting. What you describe isn’t the failure of gender, it’s an explosion of genders.
Same question for women. Gender is only useful insofar as we decide it is. We have an inherent nature to categorize and differentiate, and in some cases that makes a lot of sense, but outside of strictly biological facts, that distinction between genders is nebulous at best.
Like religion, gender identity is personal, even if it stems from society. No two people will share the same opinion, it’d probably be weird if they did, and as long as they’re not using their opinion as basis for fact, do whatever you want, man woman or anyone in between, outside, or around the spectrum.
A man is someone who identifies as a man.
Yes, it’s circular.
Idk, but i feel like it’s just being who you are and respecting yourself.
Same as a woman being a woman.
Anyone that’s confident in who they are isn’t going to care or announce it.All the blustering either way is just yelling “im a grown ass man/woman!” outside of a grocery store at 1 am.
I’ve always thought the least manly quality you can have is caring about how manly you are.
I’ve never heard anyone say that phrase, is it possible that people use that expression to mean “a man likes to feel like a man… not a machine”? Ie he has thoughts, emotions, and priorities. He is not a commodity, his worth is more than just profit he can produce.
Not that women don’t also have those attributes, just that “man” is being used as an outdated shorthand for humanity.
It’s hard to tell from the context, but it felt to me more like something a right-wing guy with really unrealistic expectations says to their soon to be ex-girlfriend (or possibly to the fiance in the marriage the church arranged) about how they need to be the one in charge.
I’m not sure how i feel about the post altogether. I mean, i understand that toxic masculinity is bad, but this post needs some assumptions and context to make me want to side with it. For example, if I saw some guy just kinda minding his business doing silly guy stuff and the context was he wants to “feel like a man,” i don’t think i would be offended or concerned?
r/justguysbeingdudes comes to mind
I’ve heard this one before from my conservative grandma, It’s when a girl is doing something manly that the guy ““should”” be doing. Like if a girl is carrying in all the groceries while a guy is just watching someone would say “let [guy] do it, he’s supposed to feel like a man”
This came up a lot as my sister is very much a ‘do it yourself’ kinda gal whereas her (now ex) boyfriend wasn’t much of an initiative taker.
It’s not about a guy not doing manly things, it’s about stopping women from doing manly things.
(also note I’m using ‘manly’ in the stereotypical terms, not how I personally see them)Again, that’s added context. I don’t know how feeling like a man is stopping a women from anything. I don’t think that’s a necessary component of the statement at all, though i appreciate the reply
“A man likes to feel like a man” is a good reason to allow trans men to get top surgery.
Whatever makes them happy I guess?
It probably is about feeling useful/needed. That’s what men are taught to measure their self-worth in.
I think that’s one possible explanation, but it’s vague enough that it could be other things too.
From somebody named “geekandmisandry”.
Yeah because no one ever picks an online username that doesn’t perfectly represent their irl personality 1:1
You have no idea how this person behaves offline, you’re just reacting to their username
I thought that it was amusing. I have no idea why somebody would want that in their username.
That just shows you how impartial they are to the whole thing
I thought “feeling like a man” meant eating a lot of meat and losing money on sports betting.
Idk I don’t do traditional man things.
Most ‘man’ things make me feel awkward and uncomfortable. Even when I was a kid. Other boys would wrestle and push each other around and stuff and I was like, “yeah, don’t involve me in this.”
And yet I have never been insecure about my gender. I’m fine being a man who isn’t “traditionally” male.
I don’t even own one flannel shirt.
I do do traditional man things: woodworking, maintenance on the family vehicles, and I’ve been thinking of getting into machining as a hobby because I have a lot of hand-me-down yard equipment that’s showing its age and I might need to start making my own parts because eBay is looking kind of barren.
Anyway, none of these activities have ever made me feel “manly” I never understood what that means. I feel like myself doing either something I enjoy, or something that needs to be done. My wife always says that she likes that she married such a manly guy who can fix all this stuff and make furniture, but anyone with functioning hands and a brain can do this stuff, it’s not exactly hard. Having a penis doesn’t make you an expert carpenter or mediocre mechanic, working with wood and old engines does that.
I know you’re joking, but I don’t get people who unironically think like this. Like whats preventing a woman from eating lots of meat and losing money on sports betting? Like what physical barrier prevents them from doing that? None.
So how could that define manhood?
It’s all society. Always has been. Always will be. There are some very specific biological differences in the two sexes, and we’ve used those real differences to decide a bunch of fake differences we stick to out of convention. There’s an idea of what a man is in our collective unconscious, an archetypal “man”, and that’s what people refer to, but that archetype is breaking down. Man, woman, gender in general. We’re realizing that those distinctions aren’t useful, and sometimes, maybe even most of the time, are detrimental.
That all said, humans are social creatures. That pressure, that idea of “man” is all around us. It’s absolutely understandable that people can still generalize what “man” is. The concept doesn’t have to be based on anything tangible to be relevant to our species.
So how could that define manhood?
Societal expectations. If enough people think it does then it does. Doesn’t mean non-men can’t do it, but they might get ostracized for it, just like men are when they do certain female-coded things. Why is blue for boys and pink for girls? Why are high-heels for women only? Doesn’t have to make any actual sense, it just kinda is right now, even though it wasn’t always the case.
Is this a real thing? I don’t believe I’ve ever encountered this. I suspect they’re actually being demeaning to men in general, or men who don’t fit their idea of masculinity. I’ve encountered people like that. Though the opposite is more common (men, and women, demeaning women who don’t fit their idea of what a woman should be like, or just demeaning women in general).
I don’t believe I’ve ever encountered this.
It very much is something you’ll find in advice columns for women.
I also have never encountered this, although i didn’t reach the same conclusion (or any conclusion apart from this is rare or not a thing).
Now im thinking about it you’re probably right
This whole “like a man” thing sounds to me like an extension of the toxic cultural BS where “men” are not just humans with emotions and needs like every other human. It reeks of men who are too scared or ignorant to be self-aware and figure out what life really means to them, and thus they need the people around them (especially the partners) to play along in their power/masculinity fantasy.
What a man needs is to realize he’s just another human, and that for humans happiness and fulfillment can ultimately only come from within. Relationships with others are crucial, and you might even need some medication to get your brain chemistry unfucked, but neither of those are independently going to make you happy with yourself and “feel like a man.”
“A man” can refer to roughly half the adult population. It’s not exactly an exclusive club. Why not leave gender out if it and try to be “a good person” and see where that gets you?
Having the people around you walking on eggshells to keep your manly ego intact, whether it’s out of fear or pity, is the exact opposite of what a good person should strive for. What if the people around you instead trust you, feel safe with you, laugh with you, and are better off with you in their lives?
Source: Am man. Went through some stuff. Figured some things out. Made some things better. Have wife and child who enjoy life.
Did the first person just translate “like a man” as “superior to you”? They done failed their own little word game.
Only if you’re completely unwilling to unpack what things like “be a man” and “like a man” generally mean in the anglosphere, and how phrases like that have often been employed to reinforce the worst and most destructive aspects of masculinity.
Recent results show this is exactly what is happening.
A wife would know exactly what it means and how to do this.
Pack her bags? That’s what I would expect my wife to do if I told her it was her job to reinforce my masculinity.
Mine puts up with my dad jokes and tell me I look handsome when Im all gross and covered in dirt after a long day working outside. That’s more than enough for me.
When I come in sore and cold from shoveling the latest buttload of snow and she tells the kids to go cuddle daddy and warm me up? Yeah that makes me feel pretty good.
Contrary to what some people claim, a lot of women do find men attractive that can get themselves dirty and are crafty. That is, if it doesn’t come with manners like a cavemen.
we are simple beings.
Two people who care about each other will provide all forms of validation and support that someone needs. This is kind of the point of being in a relationship, a partner who makes you feel like [insert thing you want to feel like] when you need it, and you give that validation back to them as they require it.
We seem to have gone severely off-course when we started expecting a world full of uncaring strangers to give us all kinds of validation for things.
Or maybe we are just sick and tired of fighting the world and don’t want that kind of drama at home with our partner.
As a biological male and someone who identifies as a man, it’s pretty weak, IMO, to need someone else to make you feel a particular way.
Are you in control of your feelings, or do you constantly need someone else to reinforce, or induce a feeling in you?
Personally, I’m in control of my feelings, and bluntly, nobody else has control over me. Neither for how I feel, or what I think/do; with the only exception to what I do being governed in part by legality. Eg. If I know a thing isn’t legal to do, then I won’t do that thing. Beyond the rule of law, I do, think, say, and feel, whatever, and however I want.
To me, having that much control over my own self is what makes me a person living in a free country. Anyone who does not have the ability, like I do, to think, feel, do, and love, whomever and, whatever they want, is someone who I want to support in gaining that right.
This seems …um… naive. I love my wife and her opinion of me affects my feelings. And the more I care about my wife, the more I love her, the more her opinion of me matters. Humans are social creatures and we look for positive feedback from the people we care most about. To pretend like this doesn’t matter is silly.
I understand your point here.
People we care about should be people we care to make happy, and who we want to make us happy.
I’m speaking more about agency. I use my own agency to limit whose opinion can even move the needle to my emotions. I decide whether their comments are something I should “take to heart” or disregard as an outburst.
Personally I separate myself from most situations and emotional involvement and look at things from a neutral, logical standpoint before I allow myself and my own feelings to be affected by what may, or may not be said in the moment.
I don’t need anyone to do anything to make me feel happy, or like a man. I control that. I’m not going to blame anyone for how I feel.
If you don’t feel happy, or you don’t “feel like a man” (whatever that means to you), the answers to why you feel that way, or how you inspire those feelings in yourself are entirely within your power to control. You have agency over your feelings.
My SO, when she compliments me, makes me feel good, but I don’t need her to constantly placate me with compliments in order to feel valuable, appreciated, happy, or “like a man”.
It is emotionally healthy to look inward for happiness and satisfaction. Relying on the acceptance and platitudes from others to feel okay is codependent. I don’t understand why anyone would want to give their agency over their feelings and emotions, wholly and completely over to others.
The idea of controlling your feelings seems laughable. If you have control they aren’t feelings, just thoughts. You cant really control thoughts either, just control what you do with them. Except we know that humans in general don’t have great control of our actions either. We just have to live in this comfortable little lie where we have control over ourselves despite all evidence to the contrary in order to maintain a remotely reasonable society, but it’s not real any more than your belief that you control your feelings.
There’s a saying that stuck with me: “feelings are never wrong”.
Your feelings are a fact of your continued human existence. Unless you’re a psychopath or sociopath (or whatever) and you literally don’t feel, your feelings simply are.
From there I determined that feelings can be inspired incorrectly from a given happenstance. While you may initially feel offended by something that is said, it’s neither necessary to continue being offended, nor is it necessary to always have that reaction to that given happenstance. Accepting yourself as you are is vitally important in restructuring who you want to be.
This is all borderline cognitive behavioural therapy. Training yourself to be the best version of you that you can be. I’ve been dabbling in CBT techniques for most of my life. I wasn’t aware that it was CBT when I started working on myself in this capacity, but I’ve recently learned that a lot of the techniques I’ve been using to better myself, and increase my agency and control over my own mind and emotions, is used in CBT.
I would agree that some thoughts are not controllable. We all get intrusive thoughts and impulses that we choose whether we want to act on them. Whether that action is to open your mouth and speak those thoughts aloud, or type them out, or to take action based on those thoughts.
The thoughts and actions you describe I understand to be system 1 thinking. Aka, thinking fast. There’s a great book on this called “thinking: fast and slow” which covers the ideas. Basically system 1 is your “fast” thinking, heuristic/instinctual/“muscle memory” systems. It’s your “knee jerk” reactions and your first thought on something. System 2 is your contemplative and analytical systems, aka, “thinking slow”. System 2 can educate system 1, which is how we form habits and “muscle memory”
System 1, we have little immediate control over since the majority of our sapience is fully embedded in system 2.
I would agree that there’s a nontrivial number of people going around under only the learned behaviors from system 1, and doing very little analysis of what’s happening by utilizing system 2.
While I don’t think anyone has complete control of their own emotions, I do think some measure of control is possible through manipulation of one’s own facial expression, posture, breathing & thought patterns.
Right you can hack your lizard brain with deep breathing to calm yourself down, but that seems like even more proof the you you think you are is only barely in charge of this mess we call a brain. If you can’t calm down you can trick your body into calming down which then calms “you” down. Personally I tend to think the you you are is just a verbal processing system that retroactively analyzes what the rest of your brain does. If the reaction is slow enough, you can sometimes take charge and we call that modicum of authority “self control”.
The whole microexpression thing, if valid, takes the facial expressions thing off the table.
Posture is…I guess controllable as a bulk coordinated muscle movement but tbh no clue why that’s relevant.
Personally I tend to think the you you are is just a verbal processing system that retroactively analyzes what the rest of your brain does.
I seem to remember reading that research of certain brain disorders has shown exactly that… Basically, without a functional corpus callosum, one side of your brain does something, then the other side (that had nothing to do with it) comes up with a reason why “it” did it.
People in general like receiving positive feedback. There is no need to assign feedback to gender roles.
I agree.
If I may ask, did you feel the need to post this because you felt that I was portraying the opposite, or are you building on the point?
I’m hoping it’s the latter, but if it’s the former, please tell me what I said that made you feel that way. I’m always trying to improve my communication.
When first reading “a man likes to feel like a man”, i thought it was about trans men
Lol yeah I’ve never heard an adult male say this so that’s the route I was going down too
That’s the perfect answer, IMHO.
More in general, it’s not up to others to change the way they act to feed somebody else’s self-delusions of having some kind of quality they do not have.
I’ve actually had to deal with something somewhat parallel to this when I moved from The Netherlands (whose people are known for being blunt) to Britain (were everything is sugarcoated and people are evasive, the higher the social class the worst it gets) and then proceeded to go around unknowingly insulting just about every insecure person I met in that place by giving them my blunt opinion on what they cared about, without evasiveness or sugarcoating.
The balance I found was to stop giving my opinion unless asked and if asked by somebody who didn’t know my ways yet, give them a notice (“I used to live in The Netherlands so just point out ways in which things can be improved, but that doesn’t mean I think they’re bad”) and then proceed to give them my blunt opinion.
How to really feel like a man
- Ignore gender wars bait, there are way more important things out there.
- See step 1
Yeah, first time hearing “a man wants to feel like a man”
My first interpretation was a bunch of guys fighting with sticks and everyone having a blast
There are fun casual LARP or Nerf groups all over the place. Most of them would love to have more people coming out to the park on the weekend. Bring friends, or make some while you’re there!
Are you male? The phrase is primarily said to women which might be why you’re unfamiliar with it if so.
Sometimes you find a really great stick. I’ve got one on my porch right now.
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You just fell on the first hurdle
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You:
Strong people build others up. Weak people knock them down to feel big. You want to feel like a strong man? Protect others and be generous with your spirit.
You want to feel like a strong man? Protect others and be generous with your spirit.
Fucking this. Strong men—strong people—help others. Healthy or not, realistic or not, this is the message that’s been sold to us since time immemorial. The knight that slays the dragon and saves the kingdom. The alien that crash lands and moonlights as a superhero. The sled dog runs 261 miles to bring the medicine to a town beset by an epidemic.
Yes, sure, one can argue some romanticism (or propaganda) with any given example. But the overall message of heroism, of strength, is not one of selfishness or of “me and mine”.
Heroism is something we ought to focus more on as a culture in general. Doing things simply because they are right and protecting others who cannot protect themselves cannot be understated.
I would say heroism has plenty of cultural emphasis already, perhaps too much even. The prevalence of superhero movies, calling anyone who served in the military a hero, all of the nurses/caregivers/essential workers during covid: there are so many examples of loud proclamations of heroism in US/Anglo culture. It is clearly a value held by the vast majority of people.
I think instead we should be looking at the messages people are actually getting from all the hero worship, rather than what we think are the important take-aways. Things like exceptionalism, having strength to prevail against one’s enemies, making hard decisions for “the greater good”. Finding good stories to combat these potentially damaging and counterproductive ideas is where we should be focusing our cultural energies IMO, rather than more hero worship.
I think a challenge with “right” is that it is subjective. For example, there are people today who believe that doing what’s “right” entails doing things that hurt people, or deprive them of happiness, or even a future. Or, that doing what’s “right” means only helping your family or your friends or your church or your Elks club.
Semi-related, as this reminded me of a quote from Cary Grant:
I pretended to be somebody I wanted to be and I finally became that person. Or he became me.
This was then repurposed on Star Trek Strange New Worlds by chief engineer Pelia (from a species that lives several centuries):
Most heroes I’ve seen… are just pretending half the time. There’s this one guy I remember, he said to me, ‘I always pretended to be someone I wanted to be, until finally, I became that someone, or he became me.’
Hah, didn’t catch that when I saw the episode - Pelia knew Cary Grant!
