My point is, the genocide that was the planned famine has nothing to do do with communism the economic system and was a result of a fascist dictator. Capitalism is fucking awful, and trying to erase Soviet atrocities to make it look worse in comparison is not only evil but completely unnecessary.
Which former civilization reached that stage? I cannot think of a single one. And almost all of the countries that are around now that used to be communist are either no longer communist or communist in name only.
Communism is a stage of civilizational development, no “country” will ever reach it or has reached it. It will be international. It requires a highly advanced and productive industrial socialist economy to be realized.
Does the fact capitalism didn’t exist in certain periods of human history mean it literally could not exist in the future? Communism is a classless, stateless, moneyless society, fufilling the principle, “From each according to their ability, to each according to their need.” The argument is that communism will be achieved through an incredibly productive socialist economy, the problem with capitalism as a productive mode is that its internal contradictions make communism unreachable.
Also, you seem to think that the only two options for a civilization are capitalism or communism, which just shows a complete ignorance of history, and possibly economics.
The second issue is that one of the main causes of the famine was crop failure due to weather and disease, which is hardly something anyone can control no matter their intentions. However, the famine may have been further exacerbated by the agricultural collectivization and rapid industrialization policies of the Soviet Union.
The absolute idiocy of Stalin made the situation much worse and mostly everyone saw it coming. Stalin went ahead with anyway, forcing peasants into collective farms and then requisitioning by force all their grain. It sure kept the uppity peasants weaker and easier to control but pretty sick thing to do.
However, if these policies had not been carried out there could have been even more devastating consequences later.
Lmao. If they had properly planned things and didn’t rush into industrialization with just ideological fervor, things could’ve been better. Famine would’ve been not as bad for sure and a lot of investments wouldn’t have been wasted.
What the fuck is wrong with capitalists that they act like they didn’t kill and enslave a whole bunch of people (and continue to) and instead are like but but communist famine!
Edit: Downvote me all you want liberals. I don’t support the USSR and never did. But western history is so full of shit - communism bad capitalism good! Meanwhile how many people has capitalism killed? How many millions?
I stand by my wording. Liberals harp about a famine caused by multiple factors and completely ignore the genocide of natives and enslavement of Africans and their descendants caused directly by capitalism and its prototype.
Slavery is still legal thanks to the 13th amendment.
Yeah I can’t even do the math. Take all the native peoples killed worldwide, take all of the slavery since colonialism, and then of course all the proxy wars in the fight between the US and “communism”, and all of the pillaging by American multinationals in the third world countries for resources. It might even be a billion at this point.
I love when people talk about those killed by communism they love to gloss over who killed the Nazis and how that’s part of the numbers…
Unfortunately, as a World News moderator, that’s not something I feel I should be doing. In fact, I avoid blocking as much as possible even if I really want to just in case that person ends up being a problem in terms of not following community rules. It sucks, but moderating is a mostly thankless job anyway.
Further agreed. This entire comment thread is in response to a top level comment suggesting the author is a tankie as the comic is “downplaying the Holodormr”, as quoted below.
I really really REALLY hate how this is trying to downplay the fucking holodomr instead of distancing communism from Stalin. What the fuck is wrong with tankies.
No one is saying that. The meme states that they got to learn about the famine - blamed on communism - but never do the atrocities that happen under capitalism and it’s prototypes get painted as such. They’re never blamed on capitalism.
If a famine happened under capitalism there would be all sorts of excuses for it instead of blaming the economic system like we do with communism.
Chances are we’re awash with victims of the United States education system. Not suggesting that other countries don’t have anti-communist propaganda, but Americans have this tendency to interpret anything that reminds them of the propaganda they were taught as either having precisely the same meaning as that propaganda or being subversive due to it not reinforcing the propaganda. I lived there for ages and I’d watch otherwise intelligent, well spoken individuals go barmy over it, regurgitating primary school level talking points that weren’t even relevant.
It can be vexxing. Like here, where simply mentioning the Holodormr as a famine has somehow been interpreted as “downplaying its impact and claiming Stalin was an upstanding gent”, heavily paraphrased because I can’t be arsed to read through again.
I actually think it’s the Europeans that are butthurt about this. The Americans can’t spell holodormr or place it’s location let’s be real. And I say that as an American….
What’s crazy is I’m not even denying what happened. All I’m saying is nobody talks about capitalism like that despite having millions more deaths that can be attributed to it. And downvote city!
The fucking point is, the genocide that was the planned famine has nothing to do do with communism the economic system and was a result of a fascist dictator. Capitalism is fucking awful, and trying to erase Soviet atrocities to make it look worse in comparison is not only evil but completely unnecessary.
No one is erasing anything. The history taught in the west is warped - look at how bad communism is! - and not a fucking peep connecting the atrocities in the west to capitalism. Atlantic slave trade anyone? Manifest destiny aka the genocide of natives? The slave trade predates “official” capitalism by a couple centuries but what existed before “official” capitalism was a prototype of it.
? We learned about that shit in school lol. You don’t have to preach about how evil capitalism and imperialism are to me. My point is, in the meme, you could completely leave the holodomr out of it, and it would say the exact same thing about capitalism without downplaying a genocide.
Fucking mood, I grew up in a new England state. Yeah we learned about the fucking horrible things done as a result of “manifest destiny” and imperialism and slavery, and the military industrial complex, and while it was a couple decades ago I really don’t recall the US or capitalism being put on a pedestal in historical terms. (The fucking pledge of allegiance, on the other hand…)The only thing I can think of that was egregious was how we learned about trickle down economics and weren’t taught about how much of an abject failure it was. We learned about different economic systems, and how countries more or less fall somewhere in a triangle with corners of socialism, capitalism, and communism. I don’t know how accurate that really is but it got the point across, that countries and their economic systems are separate, and that systems as implemented aren’t really strictly one thing or another, but on a spectrum (Which helped me understand gender a lot later on in life tbh).
I forget that I’m lucky to have grown up in a state with good education, and that a lot of people’s experiences differ from mine in that regard. But yeah what really gets me is people who can’t separate governments from their economic systems, and feel the need to defend the things done by horrible people because their government used a system that was at least in name a system they support. You can display the evils of capitalism and the benefits of communism without having to worship stalin and erase the terrible things he did.
There are multiple 20 day old ACCTS here posting that sort of thing. Though I’m sure its some sort of coincidence and not an indication of bad faith and ban evasion.
Removed by mod
I think the point is more that there’s a ton of focus on the evils on non-capitalist systems, but no mention of capitalist evils
My point is, the genocide that was the planned famine has nothing to do do with communism the economic system and was a result of a fascist dictator. Capitalism is fucking awful, and trying to erase Soviet atrocities to make it look worse in comparison is not only evil but completely unnecessary.
I think the point is to make communism look viable.
Communism is a stage of civilizational development
Which former civilization reached that stage? I cannot think of a single one. And almost all of the countries that are around now that used to be communist are either no longer communist or communist in name only.
Communism is a stage of civilizational development, no “country” will ever reach it or has reached it. It will be international. It requires a highly advanced and productive industrial socialist economy to be realized.
I remember learning this in school and it was around then that I realized it will never happen.
We will either switch to a socialist mode of production or die
Yeah, probably the latter.
Removed by mod
And what anthropological studies are you basic this conclusion on?
If it’s a stage of civilizational development, you should be able to find evidence.
Does the fact capitalism didn’t exist in certain periods of human history mean it literally could not exist in the future? Communism is a classless, stateless, moneyless society, fufilling the principle, “From each according to their ability, to each according to their need.” The argument is that communism will be achieved through an incredibly productive socialist economy, the problem with capitalism as a productive mode is that its internal contradictions make communism unreachable.
So no studies and no evidence.
Also, you seem to think that the only two options for a civilization are capitalism or communism, which just shows a complete ignorance of history, and possibly economics.
nothing is guaranteed except death
And taxes
Removed by mod
Removed by mod
Removed comment: “ML moment”, with the top comment being about their comment being removed. ML moment lol
https://theholytachanka.com/wiki/the-holomodor/
The absolute idiocy of Stalin made the situation much worse and mostly everyone saw it coming. Stalin went ahead with anyway, forcing peasants into collective farms and then requisitioning by force all their grain. It sure kept the uppity peasants weaker and easier to control but pretty sick thing to do.
Lmao. If they had properly planned things and didn’t rush into industrialization with just ideological fervor, things could’ve been better. Famine would’ve been not as bad for sure and a lot of investments wouldn’t have been wasted.
Ah yes, this random website is TOTALLY CREDIBLE.
As opposed to the nothing that you offered.
A lot of credible sources at the bottom
deleted by creator
Because the basic understanding western plebs have of the holodomor have its roots in anti communist 1950s propaganda with all context removed.
Removed by mod
What the fuck is wrong with capitalists that they act like they didn’t kill and enslave a whole bunch of people (and continue to) and instead are like but but communist famine!
Edit: Downvote me all you want liberals. I don’t support the USSR and never did. But western history is so full of shit - communism bad capitalism good! Meanwhile how many people has capitalism killed? How many millions?
Removed by mod
Honesty is important and we can talk about both things.
Clearly by the downvotes I receive, no we can’t. We can’t talk about the atrocities of capitalism because omg a famine happened communism bad!
I’m sure it has nothing to do with how your comment is worded…
I stand by my wording. Liberals harp about a famine caused by multiple factors and completely ignore the genocide of natives and enslavement of Africans and their descendants caused directly by capitalism and its prototype.
Slavery is still legal thanks to the 13th amendment.
*hundreds of millions
Yeah I can’t even do the math. Take all the native peoples killed worldwide, take all of the slavery since colonialism, and then of course all the proxy wars in the fight between the US and “communism”, and all of the pillaging by American multinationals in the third world countries for resources. It might even be a billion at this point.
I love when people talk about those killed by communism they love to gloss over who killed the Nazis and how that’s part of the numbers…
I hate how tankie has become a pejorative used by low information posters for anyone left of center.
“The Holodmor wasn’t all that bad and Stalin wasn’t either” is not an “anyone left of center” position.
There aren’t as many of these tanky arseholes as it can seem. Every one I block makes a huge improvement to my Lemmy experience.
Unfortunately, as a World News moderator, that’s not something I feel I should be doing. In fact, I avoid blocking as much as possible even if I really want to just in case that person ends up being a problem in terms of not following community rules. It sucks, but moderating is a mostly thankless job anyway.
Agreed. The meme isn’t saying or even suggesting that.
Whoever made the meme isn’t obviously a tankie.
Further agreed. This entire comment thread is in response to a top level comment suggesting the author is a tankie as the comic is “downplaying the Holodormr”, as quoted below.
No one is saying that. The meme states that they got to learn about the famine - blamed on communism - but never do the atrocities that happen under capitalism and it’s prototypes get painted as such. They’re never blamed on capitalism.
If a famine happened under capitalism there would be all sorts of excuses for it instead of blaming the economic system like we do with communism.
Chances are we’re awash with victims of the United States education system. Not suggesting that other countries don’t have anti-communist propaganda, but Americans have this tendency to interpret anything that reminds them of the propaganda they were taught as either having precisely the same meaning as that propaganda or being subversive due to it not reinforcing the propaganda. I lived there for ages and I’d watch otherwise intelligent, well spoken individuals go barmy over it, regurgitating primary school level talking points that weren’t even relevant.
It can be vexxing. Like here, where simply mentioning the Holodormr as a famine has somehow been interpreted as “downplaying its impact and claiming Stalin was an upstanding gent”, heavily paraphrased because I can’t be arsed to read through again.
I actually think it’s the Europeans that are butthurt about this. The Americans can’t spell holodormr or place it’s location let’s be real. And I say that as an American….
What’s crazy is I’m not even denying what happened. All I’m saying is nobody talks about capitalism like that despite having millions more deaths that can be attributed to it. And downvote city!
The fucking point is, the genocide that was the planned famine has nothing to do do with communism the economic system and was a result of a fascist dictator. Capitalism is fucking awful, and trying to erase Soviet atrocities to make it look worse in comparison is not only evil but completely unnecessary.
No one is erasing anything. The history taught in the west is warped - look at how bad communism is! - and not a fucking peep connecting the atrocities in the west to capitalism. Atlantic slave trade anyone? Manifest destiny aka the genocide of natives? The slave trade predates “official” capitalism by a couple centuries but what existed before “official” capitalism was a prototype of it.
Western education lies by omission.
? We learned about that shit in school lol. You don’t have to preach about how evil capitalism and imperialism are to me. My point is, in the meme, you could completely leave the holodomr out of it, and it would say the exact same thing about capitalism without downplaying a genocide.
Maybe we are vastly different ages and geographic areas because all I got was fucking capitalist propaganda in school.
Fucking mood, I grew up in a new England state. Yeah we learned about the fucking horrible things done as a result of “manifest destiny” and imperialism and slavery, and the military industrial complex, and while it was a couple decades ago I really don’t recall the US or capitalism being put on a pedestal in historical terms. (The fucking pledge of allegiance, on the other hand…)The only thing I can think of that was egregious was how we learned about trickle down economics and weren’t taught about how much of an abject failure it was. We learned about different economic systems, and how countries more or less fall somewhere in a triangle with corners of socialism, capitalism, and communism. I don’t know how accurate that really is but it got the point across, that countries and their economic systems are separate, and that systems as implemented aren’t really strictly one thing or another, but on a spectrum (Which helped me understand gender a lot later on in life tbh).
I forget that I’m lucky to have grown up in a state with good education, and that a lot of people’s experiences differ from mine in that regard. But yeah what really gets me is people who can’t separate governments from their economic systems, and feel the need to defend the things done by horrible people because their government used a system that was at least in name a system they support. You can display the evils of capitalism and the benefits of communism without having to worship stalin and erase the terrible things he did.
I’ve seen people say that on Lemmy more than once. You’ve been here for all of 20 days.
There are multiple 20 day old ACCTS here posting that sort of thing. Though I’m sure its some sort of coincidence and not an indication of bad faith and ban evasion.
My other account got banned from world because I fully support Luigi’ing our elites.
Also LOL not responding to my comment and instead just being a fucking child you haven’t been on lemmy long enough so your opinion doesn’t matter!
Guess I gotta block a dumbass mod too.
I responded to your comment.
You said this:
I responded to it.
If you didn’t want it to be responded to, you shouldn’t have said it.
You’ll notice with careful reading that that wasn’t stated anywhere except in your head.
That is the position of tankies. The people you appear to be suggesting are “anyone left of center.”
what are tankies if not fans of stalin?
What centrists call anyone to the left of Netanyahu.
And how center keeps drifting rightward.
Removed by mod
Yes, exactly; because tankie is a pejorative used by low information posters for anyone left of center.
Liberals love their slurs
Always was