Well, the outcome is the same either way, but it would have been nice to get it over quicker! As Harris said, I support Israel’s right to defend itself, and having Gaza and the West Bank nearby threatens the peace and safety of Israeli settlers, and also shareholder value! Which is why I voted for Harris, these so called “Palestinians” have got to go!

Yes, they were. Even if you think one of the world’s leading investigative journalists, cybersecurity experts, and Rev Jesse Jackson are all conspiracy nuts, the data is clear.

Hell, Orange Julius so much as said they rigged the election in his favor three times before his inauguration.

So stfu.

The something different is, trump is not providing lip service and expediting what is already being done. It was gonna happen either way. If you’re kill them torturing with false promises seems just as cruel. Biden just sent another 8billion in arms at the beginning of this month. I mean c’mon

Good on you. 🙌

called for

anything she ever said

Like I said, we would have gotten furrowed brows out of Harris, but their wouldn’t have been any substantive action to restrain Israel. I voted for her and wished she would have won for a variety of reasons, but trying to guilt trip people who didn’t over this particular issue is just completely hollow given the choices we actually had here.

This whole thread is moot but the top level comment was the exact wrong lesson to learn from recent history imo

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So explain to me please, where am i wrong?

The main problem seems to be that people think i am wrong with acknowledging that genocide is worse than ethnic cleansing. So please give me some actual arguments why i am wrong in considering genocide worse than ethnic cleansing, which does not mean either to be acceptable.

I have pointed this out repeatedly, but people seem to struggle with the concept that two things can be bad at the same time, with one being worse. But maybe i am wrong in think, that. Maybe there is arguments as to why one thing being bad must mean the other thing to be good. I would love to hear the arguments for that.

Is forcefully displacing a million people less worse than murdering a million people? Yes. Objectively it is.

It should be obvious that being alive is better than being dead. Again this is not to defend Trump. Ethnic cleansing is a tremendous and outrageous crime.

But genocide is a worse crime, and claiming that voting the genociders over the ethnic cleansers is in any way ethically defensible is absurd.

The only acceptable ethical position is to oppose both and to remove anyone who commits or lets these crimes happen from power. It is a moral imperative to do so, even if other people did not. Anyone who voted for a D or R is ultimately complicit in these crimes too. If the US wasn’t morally bankrupt, people would have voted a third party to power. Any form of compromise with genocide is complicity. Fucking WW2 and Holocaust should have taught as much.

If my neighbors all decided we can blow up the next block over for reasons, it definitely makes it very cool and very legal for me to help.

My entire point is that it is not. In your example the Democrats want to blow up the next block over and the Republicans want to beat everyone out of their houses. Both are wrong. The murder is still worse.

Saying that voting for the ones who want to blow things up is somehow justifiable is exactly what you are joking about. You cannot legitimize helping your neighbors who want to blow up the next block over by voting them onto the neighborhood council. But you cannot do the same either for the one who want to beat people up instead of blowing them up.

The only ethical choice was a third party vote and if the majority of people in the US had ethics, they would have done so. As you said yourself, other people voting for genocide or ethnical cleansing does not justify you doing it yousrelf.

It is the same proposal that was negotiated in Spring already. It only now came moments before Trump took office. What changed between Spring and now? How could Biden exert pressure on Israel as he was leaving office that he couldn’t in Spring already?

The reality is that Biden was unwilling to put any pressure on Israel to agree to any sort of deal and instead kept sending them more and more weapons, no matter how atrocious their crimes. Also Bidens team was eager to emphasize how they worked together with Trumps team in making it happen now.

This was not something Biden achieved or wanted to achieve.

I think he’s implying that once you complete your genocide it kind of comes to a natural end. It’s the worst way to end genocide because you killed everyone.

Aside from smaller efforts to deport Jewish people to a bunch of different countries, they also came up with what is basically the first ‘Final Solution’ - one of deportation, not extermination: The Madagascar Plan.

They were going to round up and sent all the Jewish people to Madagascar. But well, they failed to defeat the British and when they realized that an invasion of GB was pretty much impossible, they kind of gave up on it.

A lot of people associate Nazis with extermination camps (which, well obviously it’s true), but extermination was never Plan A for Nazis. They never cared if Jewish people died, but initially they just wanted to get rid of undesirables/Jewish people, not necessarily kill them all. The industrialized genocide came much later, more out of desperation and a need for efficiency than anything else.

This just to say that bullshit arguments like “he’s not a fascist/Nazi because he’s not gassing people” are exactly that: bullshit arguments. Nazis were Nazis long before the first extermination camp was built.

The Nazis had a few ideas for the “Final Solution” of the Jews. The end goal being get them out of the Reich. They tried to send them to Palestine (then under British control) which is a big part of why were stuck with Israel and its fuckery today. Seriously, there was some cooperation between the Jewish militant groups in Palestine and the Nazis. It is seriously a fucked up situation. But, forcing the Jews out of the country didn’t work very well so the Nazis started rounding up and killing them.

It is distinct crimes. Forcefully displacing people from an area is not the same as annihilating people. And i am amazed that this is something you want to dispute.
Ethnic cleansing is a step below genocide. There is a possibility that ethnic cleansing escalates to genocide, as has been seen many times in history, but equating the two is like equating murder (genocide) and abduction (ethnic cleansing)

Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide

Article II

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

Killing members of the group;
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Ethnic Cleansing Background

Ethnic cleansing has not been recognized as an independent crime under international law. The term surfaced in the context of the 1990’s conflict in the former Yugoslavia and is considered to come from a literal translation of the Serbo-Croatian expression “etničko čišćenje”. However, the precise roots of the term or who started using it and why are still uncertain.

The expression “ethnic cleansing” has been used in resolutions of the Security Council and the General Assembly, and has been acknowledged in judgments and indictments of the ICTY, although it did not constitute one of the counts for prosecution. A definition was never provided. Definition

As ethnic cleansing has not been recognized as an independent crime under international law, there is no precise definition of this concept or the exact acts to be qualified as ethnic cleansing. A United Nations Commission of Experts mandated to look into violations of international humanitarian law committed in the territory of the former Yugoslavia defined ethnic cleansing in its interim report S/25274 as “… rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove persons of given groups from the area.” In its final report S/1994/674, the same Commission described ethnic cleansing as “… a purposeful policy designed by one ethnic or religious group to remove by violent and terror-inspiring means the civilian population of another ethnic or religious group from certain geographic areas.”

The Commission of Experts also stated that the coercive practices used to remove the civilian population can include: murder, torture, arbitrary arrest and detention, extrajudicial executions, rape and sexual assaults, severe physical injury to civilians, confinement of civilian population in ghetto areas, forcible removal, displacement and deportation of civilian population, deliberate military attacks or threats of attacks on civilians and civilian areas, use of civilians as human shields, destruction of property, robbery of personal property, attacks on hospitals, medical personnel, and locations with the Red Cross/Red Crescent emblem, among others.

The Commission of Experts added that these practices can “… constitute crimes against humanity and can be assimilated to specific war crimes. Furthermore, such acts could also fall within the meaning of the Genocide Convention.”

https://www.un.org/en/genocide-prevention/definition#tab4

Let’s examine this for a moment:

Maybe next time, you democrats could get off your fucking asses and actually be useful to the nation, eh?

“You democrats” indicate that you might be a protest voter, suggesting that people who actually cared enough to protect others by standing in the way of a fascist tyrant should get off their asses and be useful….

It should go without saying, but I’m going to say it anyway- the hypocrisy in your statement is so profound, it should be a solid object.

I like asking people like this what they specifically are doing about the genocide since I spend hours a week on email and phone campaigns but still agree with people like jeffw up there.

Somehow, none of them ever tell me what they do. Probably because what they do is berate others on the internet and that’s as far as it goes.

They didn’t even have the decency to vote third party

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