I wonder what the actual legal disposition of the laptop is. Was it truly abandoned or was it a “don’t return it to the customer; say we’re still working on it” thing? How did Rudy get possession of the laptop, and once he logged into it did the laptop did he access anything like email or cloud services (and if so, how is that not illegal access to someone else’s data)? Rudy and his lawyer have much to answer for. Dis gon’ be guuud.
To be honest, I never believed the laptop was real. The story about it is so fucking bonkers it beggars belief. Epstein’s assassination is more plausible than “I had it through the most unlikely of circumstances, honest. But then I lost it. But just believe me, it had really incriminating stuff on it! Even before I tampered with it!”
I feel like there is still something significantly missing from the story. Although, Giuliani does continue to surprise me with stupidity and incompetence. Maybe it really is just that simple.
The laptop was probably real but I suspect the drive was cleared and this is recovered data or that the hard drive was simply copied illegally prior to the repair.
Or the data came from a Russian hacking group and just got put onto a random laptop for “evidence-laundering” (whatever the term is for that in this sort of situation)
Legally the laptop would belong to John Paul Mac Isaac per Delaware’s Abandoned Personal Property laws (25 Del. C. § 4001). He would have a right to ownership of the laptop. That said, the data contents of the laptop should have been wiped (that’s customary, not a legal requirement) before the transferring of ownership.
All of that said, 18 USC § 1030 covers the data that is hidden behind a Windows login. Yes you can boot up a system with an unencrypted drive and read the contents of it, but that’s circumventing. Now where this and everything else differs, is that in a lot of prior cases a warrant was obtained to gain discovery of the information. In this case, Giuliani just circumvented the login, and post facto indicated evidentiary data.
It’s a good question to bring before the courts. Can someone circumvent a protection, find incriminating data, and then after the fact present it to law enforcement? Because we don’t have a lot that goes down this road of questioning. Kind of the reason law enforcement needs to be the one that bypasses those kinds of protections legally is because, your average person, can do things that “tamper” with evidence. And with digital data, can do so without knowing they have done so, like last access timestamps and what not.
and if so, how is that not illegal access to someone else’s data
I mean that’s the central question of the suit. Which you can find as case 2:23-cv-8032 in the Central District of California. And I can’t off the cuff think of a good prior that answers this. And there’s parallels that can be drawn for both ways this can go. You cannot just randomly break into a house, discover illegal shit going on, and then report that (I mean you can, but you’ve also violated the law with your B&E) But if you reasonably suspect something is going on (like you heard a scream from the house), you can break into a house, discover illegal shit going on, and then report that (that is you haven’t violated the law with your B&E in some situations).
Basically the case doesn’t negate the laptop as evidence in some other case, it just implicates Giuliani into what amounts to digital breaking and entry. Which given the case, even if Giuliani was found guilty the sentence is usually a fine for first offense when the information obtained is not property of the US Government proper. So even if the courts do find Giuliani should have contacted the FBI before actually attempting to get the data, the most he would be face (if they really wanted to throw the book at him) is one year in prison AND a fine.
It is an interesting case though, we don’t have laptops screaming for help to justify breaking legally protected locks on data. So, it an interesting case to see what the courts lay down as lines for “reasonable belief that an illegal activity is happening” if Giuliani decides to go down that road. But I don’t hold much hope for that, they’ll likely argue that the data on the laptop is theirs to begin with, which no court is going to accept that. But we’ll just have to see.
I don’t know Delaware law but at least under common law of bailments, notice to the owner is required before one can claim title by abandonedment, how else would one know of the true owner intends tk retrieve it? I’d bet the NJ statute also requires due notice.
As to that, the CFAA, and the California state claims, I note that the case is not against the laptop repair guy and the suit does not admit or concede that any “laptop” ever existed. Rather, they concede that some of the data was in fact the Plaintiff’s. Further, the Defendants admit that they never had a “laptop,” only an external hard drive said to be a copy of the laptop’s data made by the computer repair guy.
Even if the repair guy had title to the laptop, and had authority to grant access to the Defendants, the Defendant’s accessed the data with an intent to defraud, blackmail, or extort something of value. There is no right of access which allows that. The access in such a case is per se unauthorized. That’s Paragraph 42 of the complaint and it seems like a slam dunk to me. Notice how the wording as to the access is reversed compared to Paragraphs 40 and 41.
40 (illegally accessessing to obtain financial records) and 41 (illegally accessing a computer used in interstate commerce) rely on the argument that the Defendant had no authority to access the data, which itself depends on the authority the computer repair guy had, if any, and whether he could have granted access to the Defendants. I think any right the computer guy had and could have transferred, the Defendant’s nevertheless exceeded by what they planned to do and did do with the data.
In Count II, the California state claims, seem much easier to prove. That’s not a computer access statute, it’s a data privacy statute. Paragraph 46 is similar to 42 above, it’s the wrongful intent of the access that makes the Defendant’s conduct actionable. 47 and 48 are like 40 and 41, they hinge on permission of someone with authority to grant access. Paragraph 49, if I’m reading the statute correctly, is unique. That one goes to the Defendants’ communications with the laptop repair guy and their efforts to obtain the external drive when the laptop guy claimed the data belonged to Hunter Biden and the Defendants’ sought to obtain it without Plaintiff’s permission.
Count III is a typical unfair business practices claim. It alleged the Defendants’ were running a business and engaged in lies and deception that harmed the Plaintiff. Rudy couldn’t help himself from going on the air and waving a laptop around claim “this is Hunter Biden’s laptop,” while having already admitted that he never had Hunter Biden’s laptop, only an external drive claimed by someone to be Hunter Biden’s.
At this point, the repair owner has no credibility as to the authenticity of data and the only evidence that could prove a particular piece of data is authentic is if Hunter Biden testifies so. Guilliani and Costello have no competency to testify as to the authenticity of the data because we’re not involved until years after the fact and did not witness any of the underlying facts or circumstances as to the receipt and storage of the data, their thoughts on it would be inadmissible hearsay. Pretty precarious legal position to be in; incompetent to testify to the one defense they might have. Too bad for them they went into business as spooks and bagmen instead of journalists.
If you can determine who property belongs to, it is not abandoned until the owner manifests a clear intent not to retrieve it. That’s the law of personal property.
Also at play here is the law of bailments. One who charges a fee to hold the property of another had created a contact for bailment. If the owner doesn’t retrieve it after a fixed term, an involuntary bailment is created, and the bailor must safeguard and hold the property for a reasonable time, after which it may be considered abandoned (if the owner manifests an intent not to retrieve it).
I have not read the complaint but I will be on the lookout.
And here’s it is. I will parse it as time permits.
The thing that is so weird to me about this whole thing is that they haven’t produced the laptop and Hunter’s team haven’t asked them to produce the laptop. Why?
I read somewhere saying some of the contents on the laptop disk were older than the hardware itself. There can be lot’s of reasons for this, but don’t be surprised if Hunter’s legal team has undeniable proof the contents were hacked and stolen from Hunter and loaded on this repair shop owned laptop in an attempt to make a story national news would cover.
The complaint sort of reads that way, as if the data was around for years and at various times Guilliani and others tried to obtain additional, legit data to intersperse into the “laptop data,” in order to make the whole of it seem authentic. The lawsuit admits that some of the data is in fact legit.
Rudy has admitted to copying the contents of the laptop to his own hard drive. That’s a crime. At most, if you get possession of someone’s abandoned laptop, you can wipe the drive and use the factory reset laptop as your own. You don’t get to copy the data and use it as you see fit, though.
There were digital “locks” to prevent people from reading the data. Giuliani (or, more likely, someone working for him) bypassed those locks to get the data. If you sneak into someone’s room, rip off the lock on their diary, take photos of various pages, and then share those with people online, you can definitely face civil charges.
the computer was unencrypted. there were no locks in place. “sneaking into someones room” is not a valid comparison when this laptop was dropped off there and never picked up.
A computer doesn’t need to be encrypted. It can just have a password to count as breaking into it/invasion of privacy.
Of course, all this assumes that the laptop was real in the first place. What also could have happened is that Rudy got his hands on some of Hunter Biden’s files (for example, via some group hacking Hunter’s actual computer). Then, they could toss those files on a laptop along with “evidence” that they manufactured (e.g. made up emails from Hunter about all the crimes he was going to crime). Then they would pull the hard drive and wave it around as iron-clad evidence.
With this method, Rudy would be mixing actual Hunter Biden content (e.g. the photos) with made up content to try to make the fictional content look legitimate. It would also count as an invasion of privacy since Rudy would have had to obtain those photos in an illegal manner and wouldn’t have had the right to distribute them.
A computer doesn’t need to be encrypted. It can just have a password to count as breaking into it/invasion of privacy.
Not when it became the store’s property, which it did under Delaware law. All the files on the computer are unencrypted, there is no password protecting any of that. You can simply plug in the drive into another computer and explore at will.
What also could have happened is that Rudy got his hands on some of Hunter Biden’s files (for example, via some group hacking Hunter’s actual computer). Then, they could toss those files on a laptop along with “evidence” that they manufactured (e.g. made up emails from Hunter about all the crimes he was going to crime). Then they would pull the hard drive and wave it around as iron-clad evidence.
While that could have happened, there is no evidence at all of this. You can’t pitch conspiracy theories as if they’re real.
Again, that’s assuming that everything came off the laptop and that the laptop was actually abandoned. We’ve never gotten the full story on that. The laptop could have been Hunter Biden’s, but wasn’t abandoned. It could have just had the data copied off of it when the person was working on it. Or the shop could have told Hunter that the laptop was a loss and that they wiped it.
In either of these cases, the data wouldn’t be the shop’s to give away and definitely wouldn’t be Rudy’s to parade on national TV. And that still doesn’t factor in that the laptop might not have been Hunter’s in the first place, but could have been loaded with data from Hunter (obtained via illicit means) in an effort to make it look like Hunter’s laptop.
So far, we’ve gotten the right’s narrative about the laptop’s origins. This doesn’t mean that it’s the truth.
I wonder what the actual legal disposition of the laptop is. Was it truly abandoned or was it a “don’t return it to the customer; say we’re still working on it” thing? How did Rudy get possession of the laptop, and once he logged into it did the laptop did he access anything like email or cloud services (and if so, how is that not illegal access to someone else’s data)? Rudy and his lawyer have much to answer for. Dis gon’ be guuud.
To be honest, I never believed the laptop was real. The story about it is so fucking bonkers it beggars belief. Epstein’s assassination is more plausible than “I had it through the most unlikely of circumstances, honest. But then I lost it. But just believe me, it had really incriminating stuff on it! Even before I tampered with it!”
I feel like there is still something significantly missing from the story. Although, Giuliani does continue to surprise me with stupidity and incompetence. Maybe it really is just that simple.
The laptop was probably real but I suspect the drive was cleared and this is recovered data or that the hard drive was simply copied illegally prior to the repair.
Or the data came from a Russian hacking group and just got put onto a random laptop for “evidence-laundering” (whatever the term is for that in this sort of situation)
Legally the laptop would belong to John Paul Mac Isaac per Delaware’s Abandoned Personal Property laws (25 Del. C. § 4001). He would have a right to ownership of the laptop. That said, the data contents of the laptop should have been wiped (that’s customary, not a legal requirement) before the transferring of ownership.
All of that said, 18 USC § 1030 covers the data that is hidden behind a Windows login. Yes you can boot up a system with an unencrypted drive and read the contents of it, but that’s circumventing. Now where this and everything else differs, is that in a lot of prior cases a warrant was obtained to gain discovery of the information. In this case, Giuliani just circumvented the login, and post facto indicated evidentiary data.
It’s a good question to bring before the courts. Can someone circumvent a protection, find incriminating data, and then after the fact present it to law enforcement? Because we don’t have a lot that goes down this road of questioning. Kind of the reason law enforcement needs to be the one that bypasses those kinds of protections legally is because, your average person, can do things that “tamper” with evidence. And with digital data, can do so without knowing they have done so, like last access timestamps and what not.
I mean that’s the central question of the suit. Which you can find as case 2:23-cv-8032 in the Central District of California. And I can’t off the cuff think of a good prior that answers this. And there’s parallels that can be drawn for both ways this can go. You cannot just randomly break into a house, discover illegal shit going on, and then report that (I mean you can, but you’ve also violated the law with your B&E) But if you reasonably suspect something is going on (like you heard a scream from the house), you can break into a house, discover illegal shit going on, and then report that (that is you haven’t violated the law with your B&E in some situations).
Basically the case doesn’t negate the laptop as evidence in some other case, it just implicates Giuliani into what amounts to digital breaking and entry. Which given the case, even if Giuliani was found guilty the sentence is usually a fine for first offense when the information obtained is not property of the US Government proper. So even if the courts do find Giuliani should have contacted the FBI before actually attempting to get the data, the most he would be face (if they really wanted to throw the book at him) is one year in prison AND a fine.
It is an interesting case though, we don’t have laptops screaming for help to justify breaking legally protected locks on data. So, it an interesting case to see what the courts lay down as lines for “reasonable belief that an illegal activity is happening” if Giuliani decides to go down that road. But I don’t hold much hope for that, they’ll likely argue that the data on the laptop is theirs to begin with, which no court is going to accept that. But we’ll just have to see.
I don’t know Delaware law but at least under common law of bailments, notice to the owner is required before one can claim title by abandonedment, how else would one know of the true owner intends tk retrieve it? I’d bet the NJ statute also requires due notice.
As to that, the CFAA, and the California state claims, I note that the case is not against the laptop repair guy and the suit does not admit or concede that any “laptop” ever existed. Rather, they concede that some of the data was in fact the Plaintiff’s. Further, the Defendants admit that they never had a “laptop,” only an external hard drive said to be a copy of the laptop’s data made by the computer repair guy.
Even if the repair guy had title to the laptop, and had authority to grant access to the Defendants, the Defendant’s accessed the data with an intent to defraud, blackmail, or extort something of value. There is no right of access which allows that. The access in such a case is per se unauthorized. That’s Paragraph 42 of the complaint and it seems like a slam dunk to me. Notice how the wording as to the access is reversed compared to Paragraphs 40 and 41.
40 (illegally accessessing to obtain financial records) and 41 (illegally accessing a computer used in interstate commerce) rely on the argument that the Defendant had no authority to access the data, which itself depends on the authority the computer repair guy had, if any, and whether he could have granted access to the Defendants. I think any right the computer guy had and could have transferred, the Defendant’s nevertheless exceeded by what they planned to do and did do with the data.
In Count II, the California state claims, seem much easier to prove. That’s not a computer access statute, it’s a data privacy statute. Paragraph 46 is similar to 42 above, it’s the wrongful intent of the access that makes the Defendant’s conduct actionable. 47 and 48 are like 40 and 41, they hinge on permission of someone with authority to grant access. Paragraph 49, if I’m reading the statute correctly, is unique. That one goes to the Defendants’ communications with the laptop repair guy and their efforts to obtain the external drive when the laptop guy claimed the data belonged to Hunter Biden and the Defendants’ sought to obtain it without Plaintiff’s permission.
Count III is a typical unfair business practices claim. It alleged the Defendants’ were running a business and engaged in lies and deception that harmed the Plaintiff. Rudy couldn’t help himself from going on the air and waving a laptop around claim “this is Hunter Biden’s laptop,” while having already admitted that he never had Hunter Biden’s laptop, only an external drive claimed by someone to be Hunter Biden’s.
At this point, the repair owner has no credibility as to the authenticity of data and the only evidence that could prove a particular piece of data is authentic is if Hunter Biden testifies so. Guilliani and Costello have no competency to testify as to the authenticity of the data because we’re not involved until years after the fact and did not witness any of the underlying facts or circumstances as to the receipt and storage of the data, their thoughts on it would be inadmissible hearsay. Pretty precarious legal position to be in; incompetent to testify to the one defense they might have. Too bad for them they went into business as spooks and bagmen instead of journalists.
Thanks for the in depth answer
Fantastic breakdown, thank you.
If you can determine who property belongs to, it is not abandoned until the owner manifests a clear intent not to retrieve it. That’s the law of personal property.
Also at play here is the law of bailments. One who charges a fee to hold the property of another had created a contact for bailment. If the owner doesn’t retrieve it after a fixed term, an involuntary bailment is created, and the bailor must safeguard and hold the property for a reasonable time, after which it may be considered abandoned (if the owner manifests an intent not to retrieve it).
I have not read the complaint but I will be on the lookout.
And here’s it is. I will parse it as time permits.
https://www.scribd.com/document/673740262/Hunter-Biden-Complaint-Against-Giuliani
The thing that is so weird to me about this whole thing is that they haven’t produced the laptop and Hunter’s team haven’t asked them to produce the laptop. Why?
The FBI has had the laptop since 2019.
source?
MSN
CNN
SNOPES
I read somewhere saying some of the contents on the laptop disk were older than the hardware itself. There can be lot’s of reasons for this, but don’t be surprised if Hunter’s legal team has undeniable proof the contents were hacked and stolen from Hunter and loaded on this repair shop owned laptop in an attempt to make a story national news would cover.
The complaint sort of reads that way, as if the data was around for years and at various times Guilliani and others tried to obtain additional, legit data to intersperse into the “laptop data,” in order to make the whole of it seem authentic. The lawsuit admits that some of the data is in fact legit.
Rudy has admitted to copying the contents of the laptop to his own hard drive. That’s a crime. At most, if you get possession of someone’s abandoned laptop, you can wipe the drive and use the factory reset laptop as your own. You don’t get to copy the data and use it as you see fit, though.
What crime is it? Is it illegal to pick up someones diary and read it?
There were digital “locks” to prevent people from reading the data. Giuliani (or, more likely, someone working for him) bypassed those locks to get the data. If you sneak into someone’s room, rip off the lock on their diary, take photos of various pages, and then share those with people online, you can definitely face civil charges.
the computer was unencrypted. there were no locks in place. “sneaking into someones room” is not a valid comparison when this laptop was dropped off there and never picked up.
A computer doesn’t need to be encrypted. It can just have a password to count as breaking into it/invasion of privacy.
Of course, all this assumes that the laptop was real in the first place. What also could have happened is that Rudy got his hands on some of Hunter Biden’s files (for example, via some group hacking Hunter’s actual computer). Then, they could toss those files on a laptop along with “evidence” that they manufactured (e.g. made up emails from Hunter about all the crimes he was going to crime). Then they would pull the hard drive and wave it around as iron-clad evidence.
With this method, Rudy would be mixing actual Hunter Biden content (e.g. the photos) with made up content to try to make the fictional content look legitimate. It would also count as an invasion of privacy since Rudy would have had to obtain those photos in an illegal manner and wouldn’t have had the right to distribute them.
Not when it became the store’s property, which it did under Delaware law. All the files on the computer are unencrypted, there is no password protecting any of that. You can simply plug in the drive into another computer and explore at will.
While that could have happened, there is no evidence at all of this. You can’t pitch conspiracy theories as if they’re real.
Again, that’s assuming that everything came off the laptop and that the laptop was actually abandoned. We’ve never gotten the full story on that. The laptop could have been Hunter Biden’s, but wasn’t abandoned. It could have just had the data copied off of it when the person was working on it. Or the shop could have told Hunter that the laptop was a loss and that they wiped it.
In either of these cases, the data wouldn’t be the shop’s to give away and definitely wouldn’t be Rudy’s to parade on national TV. And that still doesn’t factor in that the laptop might not have been Hunter’s in the first place, but could have been loaded with data from Hunter (obtained via illicit means) in an effort to make it look like Hunter’s laptop.
So far, we’ve gotten the right’s narrative about the laptop’s origins. This doesn’t mean that it’s the truth.
You are just making up a conspiracy theory with 0 evidence. Don’t be surprised that I’m dismissing it. We could spend all day saying “well what if…”
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