“Sweden has never before seen anything like this,”
Sweden has since sharply restricted migration levels, citing rising crime levels and other social problems.
I’m personally very pro immigration and think we need to get better at it as climate refugees become more common.
How did things get so bad in Sweden? Like, did they fail to facilitate integration or was there an abnormally high level of criminals among their immigrant population?
Failure to integrate is the right answer. At some point immigrant children ceased to have proper access to proper socio-economic status and a parallel society developed which, Scandinavians being Scandinavians, the majority ignored. It’s been a difficult time for the prospects of youth in general but that hit the immigrant population way harder as they’re not as embedded in the local social network, no “cousin of a parent owns a repair shop he’ll give you a job and tide you over”.
Active xenophobia isn’t even needed, all that’s need is a failure to see and care. It’s also generally a urban problem, both because not enough care was taken to encourage immigrants to not be urbanites (a common bias with arrivals is that “city is where the jobs are, rural areas are shitholes” which isn’t at all true for Europe in general), as well as urban society generally being ass at reaching out to people, smaller places are way more tight-knit.
Of course, with shit having hit the fan xenophobia then becomes an issue of its own reinforcing the very issues that caused everything, and down the shitchute we go.
At some point immigrant children ceased to have proper access to proper socio-economic status and a parallel society developed which, Scandinavians being Scandinavians, the majority ignored
Where is your support for such a claim? All Swedish citizens, regardless of ethnicity or any other factor, have free access to and abundance of social support:
Free Healthcare
Free education, including university (you get paid to study)
Free work coaching and multitude of enrollment programs
Free financial support for unemployed
Favorable loans and cheap student housing
In Sweden, you do not get forced into the life of a criminal, it’s a choice you make. But in order to integrate, you must be willing, and therein lies the root of the problem.
In Sweden, you do not get forced into the life of a criminal, it’s a choice you make.
No but you might get forced into the life of a perpetually unemployed, be looked down on by nearly everyone the whole of your life. Note how I said “status”, not just “money”. Noone lives for money alone.
But in order to integrate, you must be willing, and therein lies the root of the problem.
Again these cop-outs. What you say doesn’t even begin to make sense. How is someone willing or not willing the root of the problem? That people are or are not willing has causes! Find your root there, continue to investigate, don’t cut off you interest at the exact point where you can blame everything on someone else.
My god. I live in the country I was born in and even I can see that the odds are not stacked equally for immigrants. Sorry, but it’s hard to take your comment in good faith, hence the downvote.
Do you want me to explain what socio-economic status means? Because I already explained the access part. I also explained, elsewhere in this thread, that it doesn’t simply mean money.
But long story short: It’s what long-term unemployed don’t have. At least not in current European societies.
It’s equal opportunity bro, everyone has exactly the same opportunities, foreigners are treated just as well as Swedes, the only reason they’re not succeeding is because they’re lazy immigrants ofc… So fucking whack.
Integration should be the responsibility of anyone who enters another country. I wouldn’t go to Japan or Germany and expect them to slice off a chunk of their territory and call it America for me.
What part of “children” did you not understand, those were generally born and raised Swedes. But more generally speaking: The appeal to individual responsibility is a cop-out. It’s literally the bootstrap argument. What are people to do when there’s no fucking bootstraps?
You got terribly lost. Go back and re-read what I wrote. What did I say about the cousin who owned a repair shop? How many children of immigrants have that kind of connection into the local economy?
You can’t integrate yourself when you face racism. When the locals put you and all people vaguely your skin color in the same place, it’s not them taking the place, it’s you giving them the place and abandoning them there.
I think you’re making a very good point with the big city/rural areas argument. I’m sure most people, that have lived abroad would agree that surrounding yourself with people from similar origin is so incredibly easy. And to avoid that in big cities, where such societies are already established, someone has to purposely work on it. And that in itself is much more difficult and much lonelier than the alternative. And if your motivation for moving is solely economical, why would you do that?
Missinformation is how you get a case like Sweden, for the most part. They elected a far right party into government, blaming everything on immigrants and surprise surprise, the far right government has no real solutions to real problems as things worsen further.
Some people come from different cultures with higher levels of crime. They come to Sweden and they aren’t automatically going to be model Swedes, just keeping doing what they do at home but now in another country. Or it gets worse because they don’t see it as their country.
They shouldn’t have to become “Swedes” to be considered acceptable. Do we have good data on certain countries having higher crime rates than others? Because often with these measurements, they are done differently in each country, making comparisons difficult.
If they moving to Sweden then yea they kinda should become swedes at least the following generations.
Funny you should say that Sweden used to keep data on things like skin colour and nationality but the data that came out if it gave fuel to people saying certain nationalities cause more crime. Now it’s unreported.
You can only be pro immigration between countries of the same cultural background. Immigration from the Arab world and other Muslim countries should be banned.
So your answer to systematic bigotry is institutional bigotry? Get the fuck out of here! No seriously, leave. Be ashamed of your hate and keep it to yourself if your unwilling to work towards being a decent human being.
It’s not hate at all. Maybe you should try living in one of those suburbs for a few months. Stop confusing people’s observations with hate and racism.
It’s getting really old to become accused of being racist when clearly observing that the criminals are muslim guys. What are we supposed to say then?
You have no idea how Sweden was even like before immigration. People who live here has seen a gradual increase in violence and problems that never existed before. That’s not racism… Sweden has always been very welcoming to immigrants. But crime gangs are taking full advantage of Swedish gullability and stupidity.
Says who? You, the guy who thinks I’m a racist? :) I don’t care what you think. When you act like this, it’s no point having a conversation with you even. It’s just too dumb.
But I bet you think the world is full of racists… :)
It is full of racists just like you who think that their logical fallacies and cognitive dissonance somehow absolve them of such labels. Next you’re going to tell me about your Muslim friend right? Maybe you’re just confused because no one else in your grade school has stood up to your perverted “logic”? I’m not interested in having a conversation with you, just calling you out on your bullshit. It’s not fucking cool.
You are lying to yourself and to us. I’ve been around long enough to see lots of different kinds of racism and many of them genuinely do not see it in themselves. That’s not a good enough excuse to freely spout such nonsense in a public forum without repercussion.
I’m personally very pro immigration and think we need to get better at it as climate refugees become more common.
How did things get so bad in Sweden? Like, did they fail to facilitate integration or was there an abnormally high level of criminals among their immigrant population?
Failure to integrate is the right answer. At some point immigrant children ceased to have proper access to proper socio-economic status and a parallel society developed which, Scandinavians being Scandinavians, the majority ignored. It’s been a difficult time for the prospects of youth in general but that hit the immigrant population way harder as they’re not as embedded in the local social network, no “cousin of a parent owns a repair shop he’ll give you a job and tide you over”.
Active xenophobia isn’t even needed, all that’s need is a failure to see and care. It’s also generally a urban problem, both because not enough care was taken to encourage immigrants to not be urbanites (a common bias with arrivals is that “city is where the jobs are, rural areas are shitholes” which isn’t at all true for Europe in general), as well as urban society generally being ass at reaching out to people, smaller places are way more tight-knit.
Of course, with shit having hit the fan xenophobia then becomes an issue of its own reinforcing the very issues that caused everything, and down the shitchute we go.
Where is your support for such a claim? All Swedish citizens, regardless of ethnicity or any other factor, have free access to and abundance of social support:
In Sweden, you do not get forced into the life of a criminal, it’s a choice you make. But in order to integrate, you must be willing, and therein lies the root of the problem.
No but you might get forced into the life of a perpetually unemployed, be looked down on by nearly everyone the whole of your life. Note how I said “status”, not just “money”. Noone lives for money alone.
Again these cop-outs. What you say doesn’t even begin to make sense. How is someone willing or not willing the root of the problem? That people are or are not willing has causes! Find your root there, continue to investigate, don’t cut off you interest at the exact point where you can blame everything on someone else.
Immigrants have the same possibilities as everyone else in Sweden.
So if it’s not their willingness to integrate, what is it then?
My god. I live in the country I was born in and even I can see that the odds are not stacked equally for immigrants. Sorry, but it’s hard to take your comment in good faith, hence the downvote.
Do you live in Sweden? Or how do you know that?
I already explained why the possibilities are not the same. Are you going to address that directly, or just assume I don’t remember what I said?
You said:
What does that even mean, give us an example is what I’m saying.
Do you want me to explain what socio-economic status means? Because I already explained the access part. I also explained, elsewhere in this thread, that it doesn’t simply mean money.
But long story short: It’s what long-term unemployed don’t have. At least not in current European societies.
There are long term unemployment amongst all groups in Sweden and systems in place to fix it. Why do immigrants stand out?
It’s hard to even know what to say to this… Everything you’ve been saying has been pretty disingenuous, I think it’s called virtue signalling.
Lol, Ok thats funny. And what virtue would that be?
It’s equal opportunity bro, everyone has exactly the same opportunities, foreigners are treated just as well as Swedes, the only reason they’re not succeeding is because they’re lazy immigrants ofc… So fucking whack.
Well shit man, you said it, but I never did. Seems you’ve good some defined conception, though, so feel free to share.
Or don’t I couldn’t give a fuck really
Integration should be the responsibility of anyone who enters another country. I wouldn’t go to Japan or Germany and expect them to slice off a chunk of their territory and call it America for me.
What part of “children” did you not understand, those were generally born and raised Swedes. But more generally speaking: The appeal to individual responsibility is a cop-out. It’s literally the bootstrap argument. What are people to do when there’s no fucking bootstraps?
Then they should have no problem if they are going to the same public schools.
What part of “not as embedded in the local social network” did you not understand? Am I speaking Klingon?
You’re trying very hard to not understand the underlying issues and mechanics, aren’t you.
It’s classic fascist troll.
You don’t want immigrant children going to school with the same kids as the local population?
You got terribly lost. Go back and re-read what I wrote. What did I say about the cousin who owned a repair shop? How many children of immigrants have that kind of connection into the local economy?
You can’t integrate yourself when you face racism. When the locals put you and all people vaguely your skin color in the same place, it’s not them taking the place, it’s you giving them the place and abandoning them there.
I think you’re making a very good point with the big city/rural areas argument. I’m sure most people, that have lived abroad would agree that surrounding yourself with people from similar origin is so incredibly easy. And to avoid that in big cities, where such societies are already established, someone has to purposely work on it. And that in itself is much more difficult and much lonelier than the alternative. And if your motivation for moving is solely economical, why would you do that?
Missinformation is how you get a case like Sweden, for the most part. They elected a far right party into government, blaming everything on immigrants and surprise surprise, the far right government has no real solutions to real problems as things worsen further.
Im moving to sweden and from what ive seen and heard its not the immigrants that cause the problem.
Some people come from different cultures with higher levels of crime. They come to Sweden and they aren’t automatically going to be model Swedes, just keeping doing what they do at home but now in another country. Or it gets worse because they don’t see it as their country.
They shouldn’t have to become “Swedes” to be considered acceptable. Do we have good data on certain countries having higher crime rates than others? Because often with these measurements, they are done differently in each country, making comparisons difficult.
If they moving to Sweden then yea they kinda should become swedes at least the following generations.
Funny you should say that Sweden used to keep data on things like skin colour and nationality but the data that came out if it gave fuel to people saying certain nationalities cause more crime. Now it’s unreported.
I didn’t mention skin colour, you did. Nice try.
Yea I did.
They used to keep information on that now they don’t. Same as nationality. They got rid of them at the same time.
You can only be pro immigration between countries of the same cultural background. Immigration from the Arab world and other Muslim countries should be banned.
So your answer to systematic bigotry is institutional bigotry? Get the fuck out of here! No seriously, leave. Be ashamed of your hate and keep it to yourself if your unwilling to work towards being a decent human being.
The only one with hate here is you.
Removed by mod
Personal offense straight away. Who’s child here? And who’s hating?
It’s not hate at all. Maybe you should try living in one of those suburbs for a few months. Stop confusing people’s observations with hate and racism.
It’s getting really old to become accused of being racist when clearly observing that the criminals are muslim guys. What are we supposed to say then?
You have no idea how Sweden was even like before immigration. People who live here has seen a gradual increase in violence and problems that never existed before. That’s not racism… Sweden has always been very welcoming to immigrants. But crime gangs are taking full advantage of Swedish gullability and stupidity.
Your whole argument is lifted almost verbatim from pretty cliche KKK and Nazi rhetoric. Not a good look.
Says who? You, the guy who thinks I’m a racist? :) I don’t care what you think. When you act like this, it’s no point having a conversation with you even. It’s just too dumb.
But I bet you think the world is full of racists… :)
It is full of racists just like you who think that their logical fallacies and cognitive dissonance somehow absolve them of such labels. Next you’re going to tell me about your Muslim friend right? Maybe you’re just confused because no one else in your grade school has stood up to your perverted “logic”? I’m not interested in having a conversation with you, just calling you out on your bullshit. It’s not fucking cool.
I’m telling you, you are seeing racism in people who have no racism at all in them, but ok… :)
You are lying to yourself and to us. I’ve been around long enough to see lots of different kinds of racism and many of them genuinely do not see it in themselves. That’s not a good enough excuse to freely spout such nonsense in a public forum without repercussion.
Can you give me a list of these cultural backgrounds?